Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Lascannons are trash

Lascannons are the poker players equivalent of chasing cards.

Two wounding hits from an IF lascannon has a 42% chance to put a 12 wound model onto its last bracket.
Stalkers require 3 wounding hits to do the same.

When you back into the number of shots required for that its 5 and 17 respectively when the target has no invuln and 7 and 20 against a 5++.

A set os LC and a set of Stalkers seems like it would cover the scenarios more strongly and give some edge against T8. Plasma would certainly be a viable trade-off, but suffers in some scenarios.

Plasma does suffer a little against some things (are there T9 vehicles?), but even then it's a better TAC choice over Lascannons. It's not the best choice against everything, but it's not the worst either. And it's not even bad if you don't overcharge.

T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

Ice_can wrote:
T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

The game really needs to move to a D12 for sure.

Are you ranking individual shots on these weapons? Because that doesn't really represent the weapons properly.

I mean a full shooting attack averages like so:
Heavy Bolter: 1.11
Plasma Cannon: 1.11
Plasma Cannon OC: 2.5

Comparing a single shot of a multi-shot weapon doesn't give a clear picture.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem here, at least as I see it, is that what Eldar got in PA is substantially less powerful, other recent books such as CSM's didn't get nearly as much attention, we have no guarantee others will get such, and a lot of what went into these supplements basically reads like someone grabbing the best traits and abilities from 3 or 4 other books and slapping it onto their pet favorite for its own sake like a bad internet fandex.

Marines haven't been the studio's pet favorite in terms of power at any point in the past. They have been mid-tier at best, and any time they pulled ahead they tend to get smacked back down by the shifting power curve. If they actually managed to sit on the top of the power curve for any length of time I'd be rather shocked honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy stalkers are still trash for IF, even with the extra AP. And frankly since IF don't igbore move and shoot penalties for heavies, don't get increased range or extra shots on most heavy weapons (the only exception being heavy stalkers and heavy bolters) it's a trap to sit in the heavy doctrine to buff AP on those versuses troop units instead of the more plentiful rapid fire and assault weapons the army has access to.

Heavy bolters versues tanks are also a trap since you're only wounding a third of the shots you hit with and you only have 36" of range.

I'm biased as a Primaris only player but ultimately I feel I'd rather make stuff like Heavy plasma weapins better versuses tanks since they're also good against elite infantry over buffing heavy bolters and rather buff the basic bolter later in the game since it buffs the ABR which benefits the most (save for the storm bolter) from the CT.

It's not a trap - they average more damage than a lascannon in the doctrine - if an invune save comes in to play its even worse.

Lascannons have been trash since the edition started. Averaging more damage than a single shot heavy weapon is hardly a surprise. The issue there isn't the HB or even the Stalker, it's how pathetic dedicated anti-tank weapons are on average. I don't know how GW can fix them, but something needs to be done to lascannons and other similar weapons.

I'm rating the HB against a unit without an invune save. Lascannons are actually REALLY good at that. HB in IF are EVEN BETTER. It's beyond stupid. LC are garbage vs invune saves. Guess what IF don't care about...4++ and 5++ invune saves - cause that is the only save you'll ever get against them anyways.

what popular tank out there is T8 3+save and has a 5++ invul? I can't think of many.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Lascannons are trash

Lascannons are the poker players equivalent of chasing cards.

Two wounding hits from an IF lascannon has a 42% chance to put a 12 wound model onto its last bracket.
Stalkers require 3 wounding hits to do the same.

When you back into the number of shots required for that its 5 and 17 respectively when the target has no invuln and 7 and 20 against a 5++.

A set os LC and a set of Stalkers seems like it would cover the scenarios more strongly and give some edge against T8. Plasma would certainly be a viable trade-off, but suffers in some scenarios.

Plasma does suffer a little against some things (are there T9 vehicles?), but even then it's a better TAC choice over Lascannons. It's not the best choice against everything, but it's not the worst either. And it's not even bad if you don't overcharge.

Plasma cannons are garbage as -1 to hit penalties make the weapon useless. d3 shots with 1 damage each is worse than a heavy bolters 3 auto shots almost always - ESP now that HB have ap-2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
what popular tank out there is T8 3+save and has a 5++ invul? I can't think of many.

That is the profile of a knight my friend

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem here, at least as I see it, is that what Eldar got in PA is substantially less powerful, other recent books such as CSM's didn't get nearly as much attention, we have no guarantee others will get such, and a lot of what went into these supplements basically reads like someone grabbing the best traits and abilities from 3 or 4 other books and slapping it onto their pet favorite for its own sake like a bad internet fandex.

Marines haven't been the studio's pet favorite in terms of power at any point in the past. They have been mid-tier at best, and any time they pulled ahead they tend to get smacked back down by the shifting power curve. If they actually managed to sit on the top of the power curve for any length of time I'd be rather shocked honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy stalkers are still trash for IF, even with the extra AP. And frankly since IF don't igbore move and shoot penalties for heavies, don't get increased range or extra shots on most heavy weapons (the only exception being heavy stalkers and heavy bolters) it's a trap to sit in the heavy doctrine to buff AP on those versuses troop units instead of the more plentiful rapid fire and assault weapons the army has access to.

Heavy bolters versues tanks are also a trap since you're only wounding a third of the shots you hit with and you only have 36" of range.

I'm biased as a Primaris only player but ultimately I feel I'd rather make stuff like Heavy plasma weapins better versuses tanks since they're also good against elite infantry over buffing heavy bolters and rather buff the basic bolter later in the game since it buffs the ABR which benefits the most (save for the storm bolter) from the CT.

It's not a trap - they average more damage than a lascannon in the doctrine - if an invune save comes in to play its even worse.

Lascannons have been trash since the edition started. Averaging more damage than a single shot heavy weapon is hardly a surprise. The issue there isn't the HB or even the Stalker, it's how pathetic dedicated anti-tank weapons are on average. I don't know how GW can fix them, but something needs to be done to lascannons and other similar weapons.

I'm rating the HB against a unit without an invune save. Lascannons are actually REALLY good at that. HB in IF are EVEN BETTER. It's beyond stupid. LC are garbage vs invune saves. Guess what IF don't care about...4++ and 5++ invune saves - cause that is the only save you'll ever get against them anyways.

I did the math against regular tanks and the HB averages worse overall than the lascannon, and both are worse than the plasma cannon.

The only advantage the HB gets is being cheaper and better versus hordes.

Maybe it's a touch better when put against a Knight, but I'm going to doubt that. But let me go check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile):

HB: 1.11 damge
Lascannon: 2.04 (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus)
Plasma Cannon:.59
Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at.

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

The game really needs to move to a D12 for sure.

Are you ranking individual shots on these weapons? Because that doesn't really represent the weapons properly.

I mean a full shooting attack averages like so:
Heavy Bolter: 1.11
Plasma Cannon: 1.11
Plasma Cannon OC: 2.5

Comparing a single shot of a multi-shot weapon doesn't give a clear picture.

That's full shot count on mathhammer website
No Captain or chaptermaster or LT as how exactly you math them in on fishing for 6's is a little odd.

Also I added the AP for devistator doctrine and the +1 for IF
The T8 breaks down a lot of the OC plasmas advantage over the Heavy Bolter for point per wound inflicted.

Can't remember last time a played against T7 without an invulnerable save.

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

The game really needs to move to a D12 for sure.

Are you ranking individual shots on these weapons? Because that doesn't really represent the weapons properly.

I mean a full shooting attack averages like so:
Heavy Bolter: 1.11
Plasma Cannon: 1.11
Plasma Cannon OC: 2.5

Comparing a single shot of a multi-shot weapon doesn't give a clear picture.

That's full shot count on mathhammer website
No Captain or chaptermaster or LT as how exactly you math them in on fishing for 6's is a little odd.

Also I added the AP for devistator doctrine and the +1 for IF

If you want to argue that the HB is better because it's cheaper then adding other units onto it doesn't really make it work.

Additionally, I was also accounting for the -1AP bonus, +1dmg bonus and the exploding 6s for the HB when setting this up.

And I used a mathhammer site to crunch the numbers to reduce human error, but set everything up to compare best output from the weapons unsupported by other units since that opens a whole other can of worms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most Space Marine vehicles are T7 or T8, so if anyone has taken any of those then they'd be T7 or T8 without an invul.

Ice_can wrote:
T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

This is a poor way to do that analysis. The body matters. If you could take a 0 point model loaded with heavy bolters then have at it.

Ignore chrubs and other abilities --

4 HB Devs -- 105 points

12 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 2 = 3.5 / 105 = 0.033 wounds per point spent

4 LC Devs -- 165 points

4 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 4.5 = 5.3 / 165 = 0.032 wounds per point spent

4 Plasma Devs -- 129

8 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 2 = 2.4 / 129 = 0.018 wounds per point spent // No OC
8 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 3 = 5.3 / 129 = 0.041 wounds per point spent // OC

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem here, at least as I see it, is that what Eldar got in PA is substantially less powerful, other recent books such as CSM's didn't get nearly as much attention, we have no guarantee others will get such, and a lot of what went into these supplements basically reads like someone grabbing the best traits and abilities from 3 or 4 other books and slapping it onto their pet favorite for its own sake like a bad internet fandex.

Marines haven't been the studio's pet favorite in terms of power at any point in the past. They have been mid-tier at best, and any time they pulled ahead they tend to get smacked back down by the shifting power curve. If they actually managed to sit on the top of the power curve for any length of time I'd be rather shocked honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy stalkers are still trash for IF, even with the extra AP. And frankly since IF don't igbore move and shoot penalties for heavies, don't get increased range or extra shots on most heavy weapons (the only exception being heavy stalkers and heavy bolters) it's a trap to sit in the heavy doctrine to buff AP on those versuses troop units instead of the more plentiful rapid fire and assault weapons the army has access to.

Heavy bolters versues tanks are also a trap since you're only wounding a third of the shots you hit with and you only have 36" of range.

I'm biased as a Primaris only player but ultimately I feel I'd rather make stuff like Heavy plasma weapins better versuses tanks since they're also good against elite infantry over buffing heavy bolters and rather buff the basic bolter later in the game since it buffs the ABR which benefits the most (save for the storm bolter) from the CT.

It's not a trap - they average more damage than a lascannon in the doctrine - if an invune save comes in to play its even worse.

Lascannons have been trash since the edition started. Averaging more damage than a single shot heavy weapon is hardly a surprise. The issue there isn't the HB or even the Stalker, it's how pathetic dedicated anti-tank weapons are on average. I don't know how GW can fix them, but something needs to be done to lascannons and other similar weapons.

I'm rating the HB against a unit without an invune save. Lascannons are actually REALLY good at that. HB in IF are EVEN BETTER. It's beyond stupid. LC are garbage vs invune saves. Guess what IF don't care about...4++ and 5++ invune saves - cause that is the only save you'll ever get against them anyways.

I did the math against regular tanks and the HB averages worse overall than the lascannon, and both are worse than the plasma cannon.

The only advantage the HB gets is being cheaper and better versus hordes.

Maybe it's a touch better when put against a Knight, but I'm going to doubt that. But let me go check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile):

HB: 1.11 damge
Lascannon: 2.04 (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus)
Plasma Cannon:.59
Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at.

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

Nah dude...you don't compare IF HB against IF LC....you compare them against a lascannon that isn't IF. If my IF HB is better than your ultramarine lascannon at killing tanks. I win. Because my HB is also a lot better at killing infantry than your lascannon. IF decked out with lascannons might against beat out a marine player without any in total damage or end up doing about the same because they are paying about the same per damage but not all of those weapon costs add up right - you still have to pay for platforms. The point is - an army of HB is a mech fight should lose to an army with lascannons. It doesn't - it is broken.

This game is list construction and mostly rock paper scissors when it comes down to it. If you could build to counter your opponent you would basically never lose. For IF...this basically happens every game.

Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

You are missing my point I think.

The point is not what is the best choice for the IF player for killing just tanks. The point is if an IF HB out damages the rest of the imperiums lascannons vs tanks...it is clearly a broken option that should not exist. I don't care if their anti tank guns are a little better at killing my tanks. I care that they can load up on anti infantry and destroy my whole army regardless of what I take.

This is what Gman did for marines. It was basically balanced when it ment they had 400 less point of units to attack you with. IF get it for free. It is beyond mind boggling. How does this get passed the concept phase?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

You are missing my point I think.

The point is not what is the best choice for the IF player for killing just tanks. The point is if an IF HB out damages the rest of the imperiums lascannons vs tanks...it is clearly a broken option that should not exist. I don't care if their anti tank guns are a little better at killing my tanks. I care that they can load up on anti infantry and destroy my whole army regardless of what I take.

This is what Gman did for marines. It was basically balanced when it ment they had 400 less point of units to attack you with. IF get it for free. It is beyond mind boggling. How does this get passed the concept phase?

I don't agree. The issue isn't the IF HB as much as it is the Lascannon is just not that good at it's job. I mean the Plasma Cannon is an anti-TEQ weapon and it does the job better than the Lascannon does.

 Ishagu wrote:
You can't prove that statement.

Iron Hands had some overpowered combinations that have been amended. I see nothing wrong with Ultras, IF, RG, etc

Eldar have been the most powerful faction for two years in 8th and many more prior to that in 7th and 6th. Even if Astartes are the best there is nothing wrong with that.

Super Doctrines are a broke idea, period. The Ultramarines one is basically just as good as the Iron Hands one if not better, and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You can't prove that statement.

Iron Hands had some overpowered combinations that have been amended. I see nothing wrong with Ultras, IF, RG, etc

Eldar have been the most powerful faction for two years in 8th and many more prior to that in 7th and 6th. Even if Astartes are the best there is nothing wrong with that.

Super Doctrines are a broke idea, period. The Ultramarines one is basically just as good as the Iron Hands one if not better, and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

I don't think they're broken considering the poor performance of Marines prior to these buffs. I think it's more they're ahead of the curve and hopefully the 1.5 updates in PA awakening helps with that so when the 2.0 codex updates come out the game reaches a better balance.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You can't prove that statement.

Iron Hands had some overpowered combinations that have been amended. I see nothing wrong with Ultras, IF, RG, etc

Eldar have been the most powerful faction for two years in 8th and many more prior to that in 7th and 6th. Even if Astartes are the best there is nothing wrong with that.

Super Doctrines are a broke idea, period. The Ultramarines one is basically just as good as the Iron Hands one if not better, and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

I don't think they're broken considering the poor performance of Marines prior to these buffs. I think it's more they're ahead of the curve and hopefully the 1.5 updates in PA awakening helps with that so when the 2.0 codex updates come out the game reaches a better balance.

I'm talking about Super Doctrines not the basic Doctrines themselves. Unfortunately it would be impossible to tell because two of the Supplements were released immediately with two more following only a couple of months.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

So good as a skew but bad as a TAC?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

So good as a skew but bad as a TAC?

That's my personal take, yeah.

I haven't had much chance to test it yet, mind you, and I tend to play casually rather than competitively...but the big thing that I've found is that it really makes me wish for an actual 'assault' unit for Phobos kits.

I've been waiting for the Incursors box to come out(got 3 of them waiting for me on Saturday) to round out my all Phobos list, but so far 3x 10 man squads of Infiltrators, 3x Eliminators(2x Bolt Sniper Rifles, 1x Las Fusils), a Captain, and a few other goodies have been an interesting mix.

No Impulsors though! Considering one for the Orbital Strike Array.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

I gotta disagree. The best lists are using Knights (which are basically always Characters if you want your relics), the Primarchs, and if you have proper chaff clearing ala TCFs it isn't hard to go after a character with regular weapons. My current list doesn't have a terrible amount of anti-tank (and I'm experimenting still), but with strats and a host of rules I haven't cared as much as I usually would.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
T8 3+ 5++

Heavybolter .889 wounds 11.25 points per wound
Krak Missile 1 wound 20 points per wound
Plasma Cannon .593 26 points per wound
Plasma Cannon OC 1.333 12 points per wound

Simply put heavy bolters is the most efficent anti tank for IF the advantage with the Plasma Cannon is it doesn't drop off as hard when your hitting tau but that's also not working out the rate of suicide from those 1's.

GW really do need to employ someone to do basic math an point out that some of the designs don't work on a D6 system. +1 on D12's ir higher arn't as game breaking but with D6's flat +1 or -1 just wiped out a massive chunk of your granularity or variable ratios.

This is a poor way to do that analysis. The body matters. If you could take a 0 point model loaded with heavy bolters then have at it.

Ignore chrubs and other abilities --

4 HB Devs -- 105 points

12 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 2 = 3.5 / 105 = 0.033 wounds per point spent

4 LC Devs -- 165 points

4 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 4.5 = 5.3 / 165 = 0.032 wounds per point spent

4 Plasma Devs -- 129

8 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 2 = 2.4 / 129 = 0.018 wounds per point spent // No OC
8 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 3 = 5.3 / 129 = 0.041 wounds per point spent // OC

Your using them as a MSU dev squad ie the fastest way to loose them.

I'm talking about adding a heavy weapon to an MSU tac squad the marines already payed for 's purely the weapon that's being added.

But that aside the balance for IF being able to go heavy into anti horde and still wreck armour will be a balance problem.

They can take the same list vrs a guard horde, gsc list as against Choas knights and disco lord spam.

It no longer about balancing the anti horde vrs anti TEQ (as they tend to be better at anti tank than anti tank weapons), it's cram in as much anti horde as you can and it'll destroy the opposite squew list without a problem anyways. If don't have to go TAC they can squew hard inti horde clearing and still be TAC and better than other armies anti armour spam lists, without the autoloose horde march up.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

I dunno. Eliminators are damn cheap. Seems easy enough to slide them in. Most seem to take max squads of them.

If IF are as broken as you say it is, it will be reflected in the data coming out in the next two months. I think a lot of the math hammer doesn't necessarily reflect on the tabletop as much as it the data suggests.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

You are missing my point I think.

The point is not what is the best choice for the IF player for killing just tanks. The point is if an IF HB out damages the rest of the imperiums lascannons vs tanks...it is clearly a broken option that should not exist. I don't care if their anti tank guns are a little better at killing my tanks. I care that they can load up on anti infantry and destroy my whole army regardless of what I take.

This is what Gman did for marines. It was basically balanced when it ment they had 400 less point of units to attack you with. IF get it for free. It is beyond mind boggling. How does this get passed the concept phase?

I don't agree. The issue isn't the IF HB as much as it is the Lascannon is just not that good at it's job. I mean the Plasma Cannon is an anti-TEQ weapon and it does the job better than the Lascannon does.

Only when it overcharges...which let me tell you. Vs a lot of strong armies you can't do that. They need special help to be allowed to freely overcharge and then they don't really come on durable platforms. On a dread you are chosing 2 LC over a plasma...2 LC wins handily vs basically everything - yeah it costs more but you only get so many venerable dreads...Hellblasters are basically a crappy eliminator with lasfusil - and they are out performed by sniper rifles. Plasma devs are glass. Basically the only place you can get a really effective plasma is on a executioner...which is also glass...and you can get 4 auto shots with the min 3 damage str 10 ap-4 main gun which is flat out amazing. Drop pod plasma sterngaurd is nearly impossible to give them a +1 to hit and they will end up crushing something but killing 2-3 of their own dudes even with reroll 1's probably - if there is a -1 to hit in play - you literally could lose the whole unit. Imperial fists though. HB wins out on efficiency vs most vehical targets AND lets not forget - things like redemptors and punisher sicarians have redonkules amounts of heavy weapon shots that are getting +1 damage too. 29 shots in a reroll aura will hit 26 times and wound t8 getting almost 6 wounds through on a 3+ save. It literally averages just under a kill of a lemon russ commander. A contemptor mortis with 4 lc in say an ultramarines army doesn't even do that and the sicarian costs less...and murders hordes. Like...I don't understand why you don't understand this is a problem. IF are so strong with this super doctrine - you wont see a single vehical in the meta. Knights are instantly dead. Non imperial fist marines are dead. Imperial guard is dead. Dark eldar are dead. CWE might survive because wave serpants have -1 damage but the flyers are donzo. Even ork artillery is vehicle isn't it? Necrons are dead as DDA gets crushed by HB. Nids can't face a whole marine gunline with ignore cover unless they go full monster (which gets rekt by basically every other army) Even disco lords don't have a chance. Daemons might be the only army that can really take on imperial fists and still face other armies. Just wait. Just like ironhands dominated every event this last month - IF will do the same - and the reason is their super doctrine.

Ravenguard will potentially do quite well against IF.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

You are missing my point I think.

The point is not what is the best choice for the IF player for killing just tanks. The point is if an IF HB out damages the rest of the imperiums lascannons vs tanks...it is clearly a broken option that should not exist. I don't care if their anti tank guns are a little better at killing my tanks. I care that they can load up on anti infantry and destroy my whole army regardless of what I take.

This is what Gman did for marines. It was basically balanced when it ment they had 400 less point of units to attack you with. IF get it for free. It is beyond mind boggling. How does this get passed the concept phase?

I don't agree. The issue isn't the IF HB as much as it is the Lascannon is just not that good at it's job. I mean the Plasma Cannon is an anti-TEQ weapon and it does the job better than the Lascannon does.

Only when it overcharges...which let me tell you. Vs a lot of strong armies you can't do that. They need special help to be allowed to freely overcharge and then they don't really come on durable platforms. On a dread you are chosing 2 LC over a plasma...2 LC wins handily vs basically everything - yeah it costs more but you only get so many venerable dreads...Hellblasters are basically a crappy eliminator with lasfusil - and they are out performed by sniper rifles. Plasma devs are glass. Basically the only place you can get a really effective plasma is on a executioner...which is also glass...and you can get 4 auto shots with the min 3 damage str 10 ap-4 main gun which is flat out amazing. Drop pod plasma sterngaurd is nearly impossible to give them a +1 to hit and they will end up crushing something but killing 2-3 of their own dudes even with reroll 1's probably - if there is a -1 to hit in play - you literally could lose the whole unit. Imperial fists though. HB wins out on efficiency vs most vehical targets AND lets not forget - things like redemptors and punisher sicarians have redonkules amounts of heavy weapon shots that are getting +1 damage too. 29 shots in a reroll aura will hit 26 times and wound t8 getting almost 6 wounds through on a 3+ save. It literally averages just under a kill of a lemon russ commander. A contemptor mortis with 4 lc in say an ultramarines army doesn't even do that and the sicarian costs less...and murders hordes. Like...I don't understand why you don't understand this is a problem. IF are so strong with this super doctrine - you wont see a single vehical in the meta. Knights are instantly dead. Non imperial fist marines are dead. Imperial guard is dead. Dark eldar are dead. CWE might survive because wave serpants have -1 damage but the flyers are donzo. Even ork artillery is vehicle isn't it? Necrons are dead as DDA gets crushed by HB. Nids can't face a whole marine gunline with ignore cover unless they go full monster (which gets rekt by basically every other army) Even disco lords don't have a chance. Daemons might be the only army that can really take on imperial fists and still face other armies. Just wait. Just like ironhands dominated every event this last month - IF will do the same - and the reason is their super doctrine.

I'd honestly overcharge all day long because it's not hard to support a unit of Hellblasters (even a Redemptor popping Wisdom of the Ancients can do it).

The reason I don't get it is that you're insisting scattering S5 weapons all over your army somehow makes you able to reliably kill any vehicle in the game. Are you playing on a bowling ball? What about the fact you likely won't be close enough to start shooting turn 1? Now you're wasting a turn moving up and not shooting, likely while being shot. And fast armies (like the Discolord or White Scars) may be in combat with you before you can reliably do anything against them.

You're assuming people can't find counters to the army and that if it's a vehicle it's automatically dead, but unless you're focus firing down a single vehicle each turn (with you're "OP" HB) that isn't likely, Basically I think you're assuming too much in the favor for the IF.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

I dunno. Eliminators are damn cheap. Seems easy enough to slide them in. Most seem to take max squads of them.

Yea three squads are a little over 10% of your list. Which still gives you plenty of pts to spend on other things. Overall I found the bonus against characters to be really good on the table. Characters models are often models I want dead anyway so having the bonus helps. It is not just eliminators either, things like invictors become excellent assassins in melee with their fists, and even intercessors are deadly to most characters with their AP -2 bolt rifles.

On another note I also found that being able to kill characters really helps a lot in maelstrom of war missions, which are rather popular locally.

Also assault centurions plus chaplain with master of ambush is just plain brutal.

Edit:

 Smirrors wrote:
Ravenguard will potentially do quite well against IF.

It will depend heavily on who gets first turn I think.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
and Raven Guard I've been testing and found to be pretty broken as well.

Raven Guard one is super situationally broken, IMO.

There's a few instances where that bonus to ganking characters can be crazy in Tactical Doctrine...but it requires someone to actively build for it in a way that can detract from their effectiveness at literally anything else.

I gotta disagree. The best lists are using Knights (which are basically always Characters if you want your relics), the Primarchs, and if you have proper chaff clearing ala TCFs it isn't hard to go after a character with regular weapons. My current list doesn't have a terrible amount of anti-tank (and I'm experimenting still), but with strats and a host of rules I haven't cared as much as I usually would.

The ravengaurd super doctrine is also too much. +1 to wound characters...so usually a 2+ or a 4+ vs things you really shouldn't be hurtling with a sniper rifle. The only super doctrines that aren't 100% busted are the Ultramarines and white scars - white scars is terrible because turn 3 and Ultramarines though it is really good - Ultras chapter tactic is epic garbage. I think all super doctrines should be morphed into the founding chapter tactics of their armies with some nerfs.

Ironhands should be reroll 1's in the devastator doctrine with heavy weapons.
Ravengaurd should be +1 to wound with sniper weapons in tactical
IF should be +1 damage with weapons of str 8 or more against vehicals and buildings in dev
White scars could probably stay the same
Ultras should be counts as stationary with infantry only in tactical
Salamanders should be reroll the number of shots with flame weapons and reroll hits with meltas in tactical
black templar should be like +1 to charge in assault doctrine.

and every chapter should have the ability to turn 1 squad to the doctrine of their choice for 1 CP.

These should not be game breaking....they should be a reward for playing a first founding chapter and not taking the always in cover and MOA combo for successors.

Just my take.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Xeno, that makes no sense as it doesn't give you the best choice for the IF.

You are missing my point I think.

The point is not what is the best choice for the IF player for killing just tanks. The point is if an IF HB out damages the rest of the imperiums lascannons vs tanks...it is clearly a broken option that should not exist. I don't care if their anti tank guns are a little better at killing my tanks. I care that they can load up on anti infantry and destroy my whole army regardless of what I take.

This is what Gman did for marines. It was basically balanced when it ment they had 400 less point of units to attack you with. IF get it for free. It is beyond mind boggling. How does this get passed the concept phase?

I don't agree. The issue isn't the IF HB as much as it is the Lascannon is just not that good at it's job. I mean the Plasma Cannon is an anti-TEQ weapon and it does the job better than the Lascannon does.

Only when it overcharges...which let me tell you. Vs a lot of strong armies you can't do that. They need special help to be allowed to freely overcharge and then they don't really come on durable platforms. On a dread you are chosing 2 LC over a plasma...2 LC wins handily vs basically everything - yeah it costs more but you only get so many venerable dreads...Hellblasters are basically a crappy eliminator with lasfusil - and they are out performed by sniper rifles. Plasma devs are glass. Basically the only place you can get a really effective plasma is on a executioner...which is also glass...and you can get 4 auto shots with the min 3 damage str 10 ap-4 main gun which is flat out amazing. Drop pod plasma sterngaurd is nearly impossible to give them a +1 to hit and they will end up crushing something but killing 2-3 of their own dudes even with reroll 1's probably - if there is a -1 to hit in play - you literally could lose the whole unit. Imperial fists though. HB wins out on efficiency vs most vehical targets AND lets not forget - things like redemptors and punisher sicarians have redonkules amounts of heavy weapon shots that are getting +1 damage too. 29 shots in a reroll aura will hit 26 times and wound t8 getting almost 6 wounds through on a 3+ save. It literally averages just under a kill of a lemon russ commander. A contemptor mortis with 4 lc in say an ultramarines army doesn't even do that and the sicarian costs less...and murders hordes. Like...I don't understand why you don't understand this is a problem. IF are so strong with this super doctrine - you wont see a single vehical in the meta. Knights are instantly dead. Non imperial fist marines are dead. Imperial guard is dead. Dark eldar are dead. CWE might survive because wave serpants have -1 damage but the flyers are donzo. Even ork artillery is vehicle isn't it? Necrons are dead as DDA gets crushed by HB. Nids can't face a whole marine gunline with ignore cover unless they go full monster (which gets rekt by basically every other army) Even disco lords don't have a chance. Daemons might be the only army that can really take on imperial fists and still face other armies. Just wait. Just like ironhands dominated every event this last month - IF will do the same - and the reason is their super doctrine.

I'd honestly overcharge all day long because it's not hard to support a unit of Hellblasters (even a Redemptor popping Wisdom of the Ancients can do it).

The reason I don't get it is that you're insisting scattering S5 weapons all over your army somehow makes you able to reliably kill any vehicle in the game. Are you playing on a bowling ball? What about the fact you likely won't be close enough to start shooting turn 1? Now you're wasting a turn moving up and not shooting, likely while being shot. And fast armies (like the Discolord or White Scars) may be in combat with you before you can reliably do anything against them.

You're assuming people can't find counters to the army and that if it's a vehicle it's automatically dead, but unless you're focus firing down a single vehicle each turn (with you're "OP" HB) that isn't likely, Basically I think you're assuming too much in the favor for the IF.

There aren't counters to your opponent getting free rules that double their damage...there just isn't. What does bowling ball have to do with anything? If they are hiding from you they can't shoot you ether. At some point you have to face your opponent and they will straight up out damage you if you have vehicles. Plus it's not like every IF list isn't going to include 3 tfc. Maybe even some wirlwinds.

For plasma you are assuming no -1 to hit. So many armys can throw a -1 to hit on you and many other come with it naturally on their units + all flyers. Custodians have a damn -1 to hit banner. When it works it's great but a good portion of armies make plasma worthless. It is unusable in competitive play.