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Klickor wrote:
Maybe not in that case but you are the only one saying MA is bad AND you havent even tried it. You say its bad. I and many others say its really good.

I would say that the MA is easily one of the 3 best codex marine CTs. The ignore ap 1 will depend a lot on the meta though. If its mainly armies with ap 0 or ap2+ its worthless. If not then its incredible but it depends on the opponents list. MA doesnt its always good.

If you are building around a reroll all hits aura and reroll 1's to wound aura - it is extremely worthless. When you are Ironhands and get a captains aura for free it just makes sense...You will not see Crimson fists doing this. They will be taking a chapter master and a LT and murding you off the table with cents and stalker bolt rifles.

It's almost like everyone has forggoten -2 to hit spam. It still exists and you WILL lose to it without a reroll all hits aura

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry, but I would NEED to play them to make the statements I'm making?

Would I need to actually play with 10 point Cultists to tell you they're terrible? Yes or no?

You're just making strawmen now. TH Vets are quite useful and benefit greatly from rerolls as do many other units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry, but I would NEED to play them to make the statements I'm making?

Would I need to actually play with 10 point Cultists to tell you they're terrible? Yes or no?

You're just making strawmen now. TH Vets are quite useful and benefit greatly from rerolls as do many other units.

A unit of TH vets is gonna want a Chapter Master with them anyway because 3 hits hitting on a 4 with a single reroll is pretty damn unreliable.

And no it isn't a strawman. I'm saying you don't have to play certain rules to know they're garbage. I didn't HAVE to use units with Fear in 6th-7th to tell you it was a useless rule, right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Maybe not in that case but you are the only one saying MA is bad AND you havent even tried it. You say its bad. I and many others say its really good.

I would say that the MA is easily one of the 3 best codex marine CTs. The ignore ap 1 will depend a lot on the meta though. If its mainly armies with ap 0 or ap2+ its worthless. If not then its incredible but it depends on the opponents list. MA doesnt its always good.

If you are building around a reroll all hits aura and reroll 1's to wound aura - it is extremely worthless. When you are Ironhands and get a captains aura for free it just makes sense...You will not see Crimson fists doing this. They will be taking a chapter master and a LT and murding you off the table with cents and stalker bolt rifles.

It's almost like everyone has forggoten -2 to hit spam. It still exists and you WILL lose to it without a reroll all hits aura

How many of your units are gonna be in that reroll all hits aura? And MA works really well with reroll 1s to wound since few weapons wounds on 2s. Its mostly 3s-5s. So even with a CM in the list it isnt bad. Just not as good.

But sure, if you are building a castle it isnt the best but it is still good for the other units that are not with your CM.

I'm still not even close to sold on CF atm due to the siegebreaker cohort being Fist only. It's just so good for centurions that it holds them up above their successors. If CF did get access to it however now we're talking.

If you lack experience and those that have said experience disagree with you...and not in a mild disagreement ..maybe your "know how" isnt so knowing? Or maybe they should gain said experience and then join a fruitful discussion. I mean really, math only gets you so far. At some point you need to put down the spreadsheet and smell the promethium.

but why spend cp on chaptermaster when you can use that for more beneficial stratagems. since you dont need HQ babysitters for every unit, a world of possibilities reveals itself.

They have never played a game, let alone many games as a commander of the 18th, so I would rate their argument as....lacking.

Using master Artisan and stealthy instead of salamanders CT?

IMO the reroll is the perfect type of faction bonus, it changes how you play the faction, marines are a gunline army that want to be next their reroll bubble. playing them as salamanders means you can break apart your castle and play a more mobile role. is the reroll worse than a chapter master reroll, definitly. Is it complete garbage? no, because your chapter master can only buff so many units and it costs you CP to do it.

and yes, comparing their trait with literally doubling the pts cost of a gakky unit is a strawman. The salamander traits requires thinking outside the norm to make full use of it, its really when you start testing it that it makes more sense. Heck, even running hunter killers on rhinos becomes more interesting now that rhino can also get the reroll (not saying its good but its that kind of logic you gotta apply)

If you take an iron hands list and chose to use them as sallies, sure it wont be optimal. because the traits reward different things.

Theres a reason marine flyers are basically only ran as iron hands and are mediocre as other chapters.

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you lack experience and those that have said experience disagree with you...and not in a mild disagreement ..maybe your "know how" isnt so knowing? Or maybe they should gain said experience and then join a fruitful discussion. I mean really, math only gets you so far. At some point you need to put down the spreadsheet and smell the promethium.

but why spend cp on chaptermaster when you can use that for more beneficial stratagems. since you dont need HQ babysitters for every unit, a world of possibilities reveals itself.

They have never played a game, let alone many games as a commander of the 18th, so I would rate their argument as....lacking.

I play the game. Have you not seen my posts?
The Chapter Master Strat is only 2CP now and counters anything with a negative hit modifier like Fliers.

Sallie have veteran of the long War stratagem. Who cares about rerolls xd

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
If you lack experience and those that have said experience disagree with you...and not in a mild disagreement ..maybe your "know how" isnt so knowing? Or maybe they should gain said experience and then join a fruitful discussion. I mean really, math only gets you so far. At some point you need to put down the spreadsheet and smell the promethium.

but why spend cp on chaptermaster when you can use that for more beneficial stratagems. since you dont need HQ babysitters for every unit, a world of possibilities reveals itself.

They have never played a game, let alone many games as a commander of the 18th, so I would rate their argument as....lacking.

I play the game. Have you not seen my posts?
The Chapter Master Strat is only 2CP now and counters anything with a negative hit modifier like Fliers.

I didnt ask if you ayed the game, I asked if you played as Salamanders? All of the others play differently, so the experience is not directly correlated across the codecies.

How many games have you played as Salamanders? I'd rather spend that cp on something more beneficial than buffing one dude.

CapRichard wrote:
Using master Artisan and stealthy instead of salamanders CT?

I don't think they compliment each other at all. One allows you to spread across the board, the other wants you to be immobile in your DZ.

Zustiur wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
Using master Artisan and stealthy instead of salamanders CT?

I don't think they compliment each other at all. One allows you to spread across the board, the other wants you to be immobile in your DZ.

Not really. You can spread out with stealthy quite well. On a dread/invictor you dont really need the cover save against a guardsmen screen as long as you stay 12" away from the guard players tanks. You dont have to be 12" away from every unit, only the units that you actually need that save for. Stealthy also makes it easier to move around the board instead of hugging cover in your deployment. Makes scoring those mid field objectives much safer.

When I was poking at the custom CTs I was beginning to lean towards Artisans and the one that allows you to Fall Back and Charge. You could always be swinging embedded Thunder Hammers at the extra attack with rerolls, chasing targets of your choice. That seemed kinda interesting.

Klickor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Maybe not in that case but you are the only one saying MA is bad AND you havent even tried it. You say its bad. I and many others say its really good.

I would say that the MA is easily one of the 3 best codex marine CTs. The ignore ap 1 will depend a lot on the meta though. If its mainly armies with ap 0 or ap2+ its worthless. If not then its incredible but it depends on the opponents list. MA doesnt its always good.

If you are building around a reroll all hits aura and reroll 1's to wound aura - it is extremely worthless. When you are Ironhands and get a captains aura for free it just makes sense...You will not see Crimson fists doing this. They will be taking a chapter master and a LT and murding you off the table with cents and stalker bolt rifles.

It's almost like everyone has forggoten -2 to hit spam. It still exists and you WILL lose to it without a reroll all hits aura

How many of your units are gonna be in that reroll all hits aura? And MA works really well with reroll 1s to wound since few weapons wounds on 2s. Its mostly 3s-5s. So even with a CM in the list it isnt bad. Just not as good.

But sure, if you are building a castle it isnt the best but it is still good for the other units that are not with your CM.

Almost every unit will be in that aura. Heck in an ironhands army with 3 powerful units YEAH - your entire army will be in that aura. The trait is not entirely useless in this situation BUT wouldn't you much rather have ignore cover on all your shots or have a 6+ FNP? For Salamanders you'll always be taking 3" range bonus so the thing that benefits you the most is probably fall back and shoot or the +1 armor ability.

Not gonna worry too much about an army that has to get within 8" to be really effective.

In a castle sure. Its not that great but I dont think that is the best or the most interesting way to play the game. If enough terrain on the table you lose on objectives if you castle against a more mobile army. And just sitting there in auras usually dont make for very engaging games. Its more of a simulation at that point and I already do my mathhammer before deployment.

I play way more spread out, mobile and aggresssive so MA is just amazing for what I do.

I would say its stronger than any single one of IH traits but they get 3 so not really comparable. For a melee list MA is better than both stealthy and ignore cover I think. Im not sure its THE best CT but its without a doubt one of the best and pairs well with any other CT and isnt useless in any army.

Like ravenguard doesnt really do much against IF and IF doesnt do much if you play without many bolters and against demons or other ++ save units. You cant even build a list that doesnt benefit from MA in every game.

Have you guys already fought Salamanders-like using these rules ?
And when is the Faq due already ?

MA is a great CT to me. Playing MSU with classic marines carrying special weapons or honoured sergeants, these free reroll all game long on every units are golden especially as SM armies are now so PC heavy.

I think the problem for Salamander is, although once they get into flamer range, pretty much nothing short of a Knight or Daemon Primarch could withstand their fire power. But the problem is how to get those"old marines" in there. Everyone could easily evade them or shoot them dead quickly.

 godardc wrote:
Have you guys already fought Salamanders-like using these rules ?
And when is the Faq due already ?

MA is a great CT to me. Playing MSU with classic marines carrying special weapons or honoured sergeants, these free reroll all game long on every units are golden especially as SM armies are now so PC heavy.

The supplements will be out on Saturday, and FAQs are usually out a few weeks later.

I've been playing Salamanders all throughout 8th and the new Codex is really good,im a bit afraid that with the supplement on top it'll be hard to build weaker lists to have fun when playing against armies that aren't top tier.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think the problem for Salamander is, although once they get into flamer range, pretty much nothing short of a Knight or Daemon Primarch could withstand their fire power. But the problem is how to get those"old marines" in there. Everyone could easily evade them or shoot them dead quickly.

Old Marines have far more and better transport options than Primaris.

Banville wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think the problem for Salamander is, although once they get into flamer range, pretty much nothing short of a Knight or Daemon Primarch could withstand their fire power. But the problem is how to get those"old marines" in there. Everyone could easily evade them or shoot them dead quickly.

Old Marines have far more and better transport options than Primaris.

Word. We can practically land on top of the opponent if we want to.

So how telling is it everyone stopped posting in this thread once the full book came out?

 AduroT wrote:
So how telling is it everyone stopped posting in this thread once the full book came out?

It's almost as if it was all a big nothing burger but I'm sure someone will complain that salamanders are OP because they decided to smash into a 6 man squad of flame agressors as "evidence".

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So how telling is it everyone stopped posting in this thread once the full book came out?

It's almost as if it was all a big nothing burger but I'm sure someone will complain that salamanders are OP because they decided to smash into a 6 man squad of flame agressors as "evidence".

Kind of what I figured.

 AduroT wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So how telling is it everyone stopped posting in this thread once the full book came out?

It's almost as if it was all a big nothing burger but I'm sure someone will complain that salamanders are OP because they decided to smash into a 6 man squad of flame agressors as "evidence".

Kind of what I figured.

Par for the course on Dakka.

I still remember the mass hysteria around the Ork codex pre-release and how they were going to be unbeatable. Sure they aren't a bad codex, but hardly top tier and for competitive are locked to limited builds

I think they will prove to be very strong once the elite players start to go through the codex and build lists properly, not just trying to get as many flamer aggressors in the list as possible which is potentially insane but not very practical.
Being able to give any unit +1 to wound is incredibly strong for one cp, that doesn't need to get close range and makes their repulsors and Leviathans arguably the best in the game.

kingheff wrote:
I think they will prove to be very strong once the elite players start to go through the codex and build lists properly, not just trying to get as many flamer aggressors in the list as possible which is potentially insane but not very practical.
Being able to give any unit +1 to wound is incredibly strong for one cp, that doesn't need to get close range and makes their repulsors and Leviathans arguably the best in the game.

Which is why votlw was limited to infantry. That's gak. Either that strategem needs to be nerfed or votlw needs to lose the restriction.

*laughs in Deathwatch*