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Quasistellar wrote:
I wish mods did more in this forum to discourage troll threads and just end them when they get off track.

I think it's a higher priority that they fix the weird forum bug that apparently causes the browsers of marine fans to turn this entirely reasonable post

Has anyone been in a local game where there was a no marine army rule? If so how did it go?

into this obvious troll

Aarglebargle! Marines totes OP! Ban them all NAO!!!1!!eleven

Seriously, that second version is what some marine fans genuinely seem to think the OP says, going by their reactions to it. It's quite baffling.

I’d say it can be fun. Particularly if it’s done in the spirit of seeing the less popular factions on the table.

A small-point tournament (500 points?) with a three-month lead time might be a fun event that would encourage sales for the store, especially if it's marine centric. Give people time to buy and build a small non-Marine force to play.

All of the people I game with have Marines + 1 other army (at least) so wouldn’t impact our player base. No harm would come from asking about interest at your local. Put up a page with a Facebook link or something. Or whatever it is the cool kids are doing these days.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Why not ban tournaments? they bring out the worst in most people.

More impractical than "No Marines", but it sounds good to me.

Now imagine this thread being about banning eldar/orks/tau/daemons.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think some of the indignation is coming from the fact that the OP is talking about excluding an army, whilst in reality armies are people, players. Not everyone runs more than one army and even if they have multiple armies they might not have enough points for a 2K (that being the average) tournament list. So excluding a whole army is also excluding those players.

Given the phrasing in the initial post, it isn't one army. There are multiple "marine" factions these days. It'd mean excluding:

- Codex: Space Marines (and supplements)
- Codex: Blood Angels
- Codex: Dark Angels
- Codex: Space Wolves
- Codex: Deathwatch
- Codex: Grey Knights
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Thousand Sons

That's a hell of an exclusion list.

If the ban is more for getting rid of factions that play different game to others it's basically just first row of this. Rest play 8th ed rather than 8.5

I could see a ban on supplements until more factions have more rules. The core marine book is still quite good and vastly better than what DA/BA/GK/SW have.

The marine book in itself is quite well rounded and balance wise in a very good spot. More books should be on that level.

What breaks it is the supplements that give an additional doctrine bonus and extra traits/relics/strats/powers that adds an extra layer of good/broken rules to what was already quite good.

So even though Iron Hands received heavy nerfs and both Imperial Fists and Salamanders are not officially released, some people are suggesting the exclusion of Space Marines in tournaments.

This reminds of the days when people were furious about Genestealer Cult Kelermorph, and urged GW to nerf them before the codex was officially released.

Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

I am afraid I don't agree with your assessment at all, the lists do fairly well against other armies but being forced to 12" deepstrike, many reductions to charge ranges and various unit slow down effects combined with Daemons and Tyranids not being a inherently shooty army makes an incredibly unfun match up. Yes it's a shooting dominant edition and I am making the best I can out of a mono codex army vs other mono codex armies. The issue stands Brian that Marines out range, out threat AND have very good tools to deal with me marching up the board.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

They did get tougher to get rid of by the maxim of best form of attack is defence. When your killing power goes to nth degree you can cripple your enemy so well they struggle to kill anything in return.

For numarines taking out 2-3 doomsday arks in a turn isn't that hard and then all their vehicles are essentially invulnerable.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

Wait, what? I've got to ignore ap1 across all my units. All my tanks gained that plus Master Artisan. I can half damage on dreadnoughts, I have extra wounds on all Gravis and Centurion suits. That's just off the top of my hat,and ignoring the fact that a tyranid unit that got destroyed by shooting or even preemptive charges also makes my marines survive longer, since less damage is coming in.

I play both marines and Tyranids and right now I'd say marines are quite a bit ahead in power level. The only thing that really works for Tyranids in that setup is speed - Genestealers, Swarmlord, WHT with Onslaught. That's probably it,and its not enough in my experience (it's not enough vs other armies, such as Tau, either, so it's not the marine codex that's at fault)

Looking at the backlash in this thread against the suggestion of a small local tournament banning marines for a single (possibly narrative) event ...

I think for the sake of community cohesion it would be probably best to just never even suggest the idea.

I don't get why people hate diversity.

If somebody wants to run a no-Marine tournament, or a no-Psyker tournament, or a no-Superheavy tournament, or a no-models-painted-green tournament, more power to them. Let's keep it fresh and try different things.

I genuinely can't see the big gripe against marines.

While the IH Codex WAS silly powerful, it has been nerfed and is no longer able to do rediculous combos as it could. And let's be honest to ourselves, the IH Codex has currently been the only blatantly powerful marine Codex to date that achieved exceedingly high tournament scores.

Banning marines for the infractions of one Codex in the whole of 8th (which is now nearly 2.5 years of time) seems rather strange. Marines until the 2019 Codex were not duper competitive unless you ran Guilliman for the reroll everything spam. Now they are in a position where even a custom marine chapter can at least hold its own. Yes. Constant marine releases are tiresome (even I'm glad it's coming to an end!) but anyone who says this update wasn't required is not honest or enjoyed curb stomping marine players.

But I'll repeat what I've originally thought from reading DakkaDakka since the 2019 Codex reveals - lots of players are now put out that they actually had better rules. GW have stated many times 8th would be fully updated throughout and the 2019 Codex is one of them. I wish all codex books will get a marine style update, as some are in desperate need. Until the 2019 Codex, how many genuine 100% marine only armies did you see that didn't have Guilliman in them at tournaments?

I've rambled on enough. But all this negative marine talk is getting extremely tiresome and if I'm honest, very petty. The new supplements aren't even out yet and already people are getting angry and claiming this and this is too strong.

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

despite the term codex creep it doesn't always happen, sometimes a codex just clicks better then others. we'll see future codices that are stronger then the current marines one, and we'll see those that are weaker. garenteed

 Drachii wrote:
If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

Have an exalt good sir. People seem to forget when there were virtually no marine lists in tournaments, just soup ingredients.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 Drachii wrote:
If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

Have an exalt good sir. People seem to forget when there were virtually no marine lists in tournaments, just soup ingredients.

Good thing they now do everything better than all those other imperial factions

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If Marines are so broken why do Ultramarines, ravenguard have a 50% and 52% win rate lower than aldari and Drukari for the same time period whitescars are maybe over performing but that could also be that making them works has been a bit of a challenge and they are only being played by a few people with a game plan.

So continue on about how no other codex can compete against the unbeatable OP ness that is the 9th edition codex's that are still out won by 8.0 codex's.

The people who probably have a genuine reason to complain are necrons and pure nid players. But those codex's had issues before marines 2.0 anyway.

Ice_can wrote:

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If Marines are so broken why do Ultramarines, ravenguard have a 50% and 52% win rate lower than aldari and Drukari for the same time period whitescars are maybe over performing but that could also be that making them works has been a bit of a challenge and they are only being played by a few people with a game plan.

So continue on about how no other codex can compete against the unbeatable OP ness that is the 9th edition codex's that are still out won by 8.0 codex's.

The people who probably have a genuine reason to complain are necrons and pure nid players. But those codex's had issues before marines 2.0 anyway.

Necrons beat SM and even IH according to stats centre, I'm not sure how Marines managed to top events while Necrons almost never managed it while still winning against Marines.

Should really just ban IH and IF - they are clear outliers getting too much free power.

Ultras are indeed strong but they aren't any stronger than knights and guard/ or alitoc flyers. Same for raven guard and white scars.

IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Nah dude.

Their tactic is bonkers level too...Ignore cover and 6's generate additional hits with bolt weapons. +1 damage to vehicles is literally double damage for most weapons vs vehicles (this is straight busted - it's kind of like having seal of oath against every vehicle in an army - without even needing be be in an aura). This also makes their overwatch insane with a chapter master. There is a reason we were warned about these 2 chapters ahead of time.

Marines in general are strong and needed a boost and they sure got it. However - all the supplements except for white scars and ultramarines seem to be getting a little too much extra help.

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

This space marine bashing has gotten really old really fast. First no one shut up about how bad marines were now no one shuts up about how OP they are. Ugh ^^

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This space marine bashing has gotten really old really fast. First no one shut up about how bad marines were now no one shuts up about how OP they are. Ugh ^^

People wanted balance not...My army does 120% more damage (like imperial fists do to vehicles) Imagine playing imperial knights vs that? it's like your knights have 12 wounds.

It'll be just like all those 6E/7E tournaments where CWE were banned?

Remember those?

Nope? Me neither.

Because it's a silly idea.

You can keep banning the top of the pile, but that just leaves the next-tallest-nail sticking up and pissing everyone off. Except in addition to an unbalanced mess, you now also have a bunch of people you've excluded.

So be a dick to a bunch of people just so you can have just as imbalanced an event.

Not a good idea.

Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.