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Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

Yeah Marin is over reacting. she's heard that eliminators can do X or Y,and is thinking "ELIMINATORS CAN DO X+Y!"

the fact is Eliminators have been around for nearly a year now, if they where that abd we'd have already seen the meta rocked by them.

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

A) i have seen what three Vindicare can do, but they can`t kill my LOS warlocks and spiritseers and are not rapidly deploying in most of the map. Also you pay more points for that and you spend detachment, so it`s more balanced.
B) Vindicare is also BS unit, but atleast he don`t easy access to rerolls and +1 or +2 to wound. 1 Vindicare have 1 shoot, have to chances to fail and he can`t be make more reliable vs bikers or monsters. Vindicare also have to roll 6 on the wound of his only shoot to kill my farseer and after that roll high damage. There are more places to fail and not many people are bringing 3 Vindicares.

I'm sorry space Marines have units that can kill your units.

BrianDavion wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

Yeah Marin is over reacting. she's heard that eliminators can do X or Y,and is thinking "ELIMINATORS CAN DO X+Y!"

the fact is Eliminators have been around for nearly a year now, if they where that abd we'd have already seen the meta rocked by them.

You are joking right ?
They were S4 and did not had option to get +1 to hit and wound. We are talking about totally different datasheet and you can`t compare it with pre new codex marines.
One guy won tournament in Hawaii spamming 3 of them even pre buff SM.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm sorry space Marines have units that can kill your units.

clearly it is not okey for a unit that bullies eldar to exist. I expect an army to be good against all eldar builds falls in to the cathegory of destroys the game and has to be FAQed as soon as possible.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm sorry space Marines have units that can kill your units.

clearly it is not okey for a unit that bullies eldar to exist. I expect an army to be good against all eldar builds falls in to the cathegory of destroys the game and has to be FAQed as soon as possible.

You are right, no army that bullies 80% of other armies should exist. So yes i`m expecting to be FAQed as soon as possible.

New SM WR is higher than Castellan and Ynnari. Ynnari even in their peak were never more than 5% of the super big tournaments like LVO.
I know players who complain about aeldar with 0 games played vs that faction, so i believe in the numbers and numbers shows that CWE is pretty balanced top army.
For instance in the last 6 mounts:
TS vs CWE 61.63‬ WR
Tyranid vs CWE 56.03‬ WR
Space Wolves vs CWE 44% WR

And that is including the OP fly spam list, so strong but hardly dominating with total of 52.13% WR.

CWE codex was released October 2017 in April FAQ 2018 dark reapers, spiritseer, warlock and warlock conclave received point increases.
That is before half of the codexes to be released, so i expect the some treatment for the SM.
Even GW are starting to treat SM releases as mistake, the nerfs are coming and you can be sure of that.

And? is it impossible for armies to be even better then eldar were. Is it somehow bad for eldar to be a worse or even bad army? Where is the rules that says that eldar players are always suppose to have a good army with good rules, and that somehow eldar not being at the bottom, if they really are at the bottom right now, or hard countered by popular armies, is equal to balance in the game. Because the claims confuse me.

When I say that may army is bad, the response I get is learn to play, get another army or some armies are suppose to be bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marin wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm sorry space Marines have units that can kill your units.

clearly it is not okey for a unit that bullies eldar to exist. I expect an army to be good against all eldar builds falls in to the cathegory of destroys the game and has to be FAQed as soon as possible.

You are right, no army that bullies 80% of other armies should exist. So yes i`m expecting to be FAQed as soon as possible.

If it makes up for more then 50% of all armies played, then what is the problem? my army gets bullied by 99% of the field, it only doesn't get bullied in mono on mono GK mirror matchs? if we went by that logic, then GW should be killing itself to fix my stuff as clearly being bullied by everything is more then under 50% of the field being bullied 80% of time.

Karol wrote:

New SM WR is higher than Castellan and Ynnari. Ynnari even in their peak were never more than 5% of the super big tournaments like LVO.
I know players who complain about aeldar with 0 games played vs that faction, so i believe in the numbers and numbers shows that CWE is pretty balanced top army.
For instance in the last 6 mounts:
TS vs CWE 61.63‬ WR
Tyranid vs CWE 56.03‬ WR
Space Wolves vs CWE 44% WR

And that is including the OP fly spam list, so strong but hardly dominating with total of 52.13% WR.

CWE codex was released October 2017 in April FAQ 2018 dark reapers, spiritseer, warlock and warlock conclave received point increases.
That is before half of the codexes to be released, so i expect the some treatment for the SM.
Even GW are starting to treat SM releases as mistake, the nerfs are coming and you can be sure of that.

And? is it impossible for armies to be even better then eldar were. Is it somehow bad for eldar to be a worse or even bad army? Where is the rules that says that eldar players are always suppose to have a good army with good rules, and that somehow eldar not being at the bottom, if they really are at the bottom right now, or hard countered by popular armies, is equal to balance in the game. Because the claims confuse me.

When I say that may army is bad, the response I get is learn to play, get another army or some armies are suppose to be bad.

Hmmm, were`t eldar nerfed every FAQ in CA because they were performing better than they should ?
Is it wrong for me to expect the some treatment to the new OP broken stuff ?
Is it wrong to expect buffs to nonperforming stuff ?
I`m always happy if under-performing faction get buffs, Tao and AdMech buffs in CA was good for the game.

Marin wrote:

Karol wrote:

New SM WR is higher than Castellan and Ynnari. Ynnari even in their peak were never more than 5% of the super big tournaments like LVO.
I know players who complain about aeldar with 0 games played vs that faction, so i believe in the numbers and numbers shows that CWE is pretty balanced top army.
For instance in the last 6 mounts:
TS vs CWE 61.63‬ WR
Tyranid vs CWE 56.03‬ WR
Space Wolves vs CWE 44% WR

And that is including the OP fly spam list, so strong but hardly dominating with total of 52.13% WR.

CWE codex was released October 2017 in April FAQ 2018 dark reapers, spiritseer, warlock and warlock conclave received point increases.
That is before half of the codexes to be released, so i expect the some treatment for the SM.
Even GW are starting to treat SM releases as mistake, the nerfs are coming and you can be sure of that.

And? is it impossible for armies to be even better then eldar were. Is it somehow bad for eldar to be a worse or even bad army? Where is the rules that says that eldar players are always suppose to have a good army with good rules, and that somehow eldar not being at the bottom, if they really are at the bottom right now, or hard countered by popular armies, is equal to balance in the game. Because the claims confuse me.

When I say that may army is bad, the response I get is learn to play, get another army or some armies are suppose to be bad.

Hmmm, were`t eldar nerfed every FAQ in CA because they were performing better than they should ?
Is it wrong for me to expect the some treatment to the new OP broken stuff ?
Is it wrong to expect buffs to nonperforming stuff ?
I`m always happy if under-performing faction get buffs, Tao and AdMech buffs in CA was good for the game.

and maybe space marines will suffer some nerfs too, however expecting GW to massivly nerf the codex with 3 weeks worth of data is just stupidity.

furthermore if they do nerf it don't expect the kind of catastrophic nerfs you seem to be propsing, 43 PPM for a eliminator is a joke.

BrianDavion wrote:

Marin wrote:

Karol wrote:

New SM WR is higher than Castellan and Ynnari. Ynnari even in their peak were never more than 5% of the super big tournaments like LVO.
I know players who complain about aeldar with 0 games played vs that faction, so i believe in the numbers and numbers shows that CWE is pretty balanced top army.
For instance in the last 6 mounts:
TS vs CWE 61.63‬ WR
Tyranid vs CWE 56.03‬ WR
Space Wolves vs CWE 44% WR

And that is including the OP fly spam list, so strong but hardly dominating with total of 52.13% WR.

CWE codex was released October 2017 in April FAQ 2018 dark reapers, spiritseer, warlock and warlock conclave received point increases.
That is before half of the codexes to be released, so i expect the some treatment for the SM.
Even GW are starting to treat SM releases as mistake, the nerfs are coming and you can be sure of that.

And? is it impossible for armies to be even better then eldar were. Is it somehow bad for eldar to be a worse or even bad army? Where is the rules that says that eldar players are always suppose to have a good army with good rules, and that somehow eldar not being at the bottom, if they really are at the bottom right now, or hard countered by popular armies, is equal to balance in the game. Because the claims confuse me.

When I say that may army is bad, the response I get is learn to play, get another army or some armies are suppose to be bad.

Hmmm, were`t eldar nerfed every FAQ in CA because they were performing better than they should ?
Is it wrong for me to expect the some treatment to the new OP broken stuff ?
Is it wrong to expect buffs to nonperforming stuff ?
I`m always happy if under-performing faction get buffs, Tao and AdMech buffs in CA was good for the game.

and maybe space marines will suffer some nerfs too, however expecting GW to massivly nerf the codex with 3 weeks worth of data is just stupidity.

furthermore if they do nerf it don't expect the kind of catastrophic nerfs you seem to be propsing, 43 PPM for a eliminator is a joke.

Iron Hands say hi.

Generally, a meta balances out pretty quickly for this game and in card games, however the high win rates have continued which highlights a problem with the faction in question. The fact that they have a huge representation in the game is something that makes the game unfun too. Take a look at Hearthstone for instance, the Shaman class had and is currently the highest represented class in the game and it's because the cards in those decks are very powerful, something which can be seen in marines with this game.

I currently don't run Elims with my RG Army, partly due to finances, but don't seem to miss them either. I win about half my games with what I do run.... without having the current 'Dex for them.

For less than the cost of 3 Eliminators squads, I can drop 2 TFCs that also can shoot at non-LOS targets (Arty rules).
They would have a minimum of 8 hits (4d3 each), an average of 14 between them (Max of 24, 12 each), and can hit anywhere on the table (R=60") doing the same damage per hit. And that is only 4 models that can be dropped in cover and don't have to move from my deployment zone.
Can they target characters? Technically, no. But that doesn't stop them from removing such models in the right situation.
I guess they are OP as well?
I have them because Horde armies are a thing I run into a lot.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Marin wrote:

Karol wrote:

New SM WR is higher than Castellan and Ynnari. Ynnari even in their peak were never more than 5% of the super big tournaments like LVO.
I know players who complain about aeldar with 0 games played vs that faction, so i believe in the numbers and numbers shows that CWE is pretty balanced top army.
For instance in the last 6 mounts:
TS vs CWE 61.63‬ WR
Tyranid vs CWE 56.03‬ WR
Space Wolves vs CWE 44% WR

And that is including the OP fly spam list, so strong but hardly dominating with total of 52.13% WR.

CWE codex was released October 2017 in April FAQ 2018 dark reapers, spiritseer, warlock and warlock conclave received point increases.
That is before half of the codexes to be released, so i expect the some treatment for the SM.
Even GW are starting to treat SM releases as mistake, the nerfs are coming and you can be sure of that.

And? is it impossible for armies to be even better then eldar were. Is it somehow bad for eldar to be a worse or even bad army? Where is the rules that says that eldar players are always suppose to have a good army with good rules, and that somehow eldar not being at the bottom, if they really are at the bottom right now, or hard countered by popular armies, is equal to balance in the game. Because the claims confuse me.

When I say that may army is bad, the response I get is learn to play, get another army or some armies are suppose to be bad.

Hmmm, were`t eldar nerfed every FAQ in CA because they were performing better than they should ?
Is it wrong for me to expect the some treatment to the new OP broken stuff ?
Is it wrong to expect buffs to nonperforming stuff ?
I`m always happy if under-performing faction get buffs, Tao and AdMech buffs in CA was good for the game.

and maybe space marines will suffer some nerfs too, however expecting GW to massivly nerf the codex with 3 weeks worth of data is just stupidity.

furthermore if they do nerf it don't expect the kind of catastrophic nerfs you seem to be propsing, 43 PPM for a eliminator is a joke.

Iron Hands say hi.

Generally, a meta balances out pretty quickly for this game and in card games, however the high win rates have continued which highlights a problem with the faction in question. The fact that they have a huge representation in the game is something that makes the game unfun too. Take a look at Hearthstone for instance, the Shaman class had and is currently the highest represented class in the game and it's because the cards in those decks are very powerful, something which can be seen in marines with this game.

except that Marines have always been one of the most popular armies in the game, even when they've been weak.

The representation is massive compared to the past, you can't just explain this away as popularity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 helgrenze wrote:

I currently don't run Elims with my RG Army, partly due to finances, but don't seem to miss them either. I win about half my games with what I do run.... without having the current 'Dex for them.

For less than the cost of 3 Eliminators squads, I can drop 2 TFCs that also can shoot at non-LOS targets (Arty rules).
They would have a minimum of 8 hits (4d3 each), an average of 14 between them (Max of 24, 12 each), and can hit anywhere on the table (R=60") doing the same damage per hit. And that is only 4 models that can be dropped in cover and don't have to move from my deployment zone.
Can they target characters? Technically, no. But that doesn't stop them from removing such models in the right situation.
I guess they are OP as well?
I have them because Horde armies are a thing I run into a lot.

No they aren't OP, they're just good. If they could target characters then that's when they wouldn't be balanced. Not really an analogous statement for this discussion.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

No they aren't OP, they're just good. If they could target characters then that's when they wouldn't be balanced. Not really an analogous statement for this discussion.

TFCs are also massively boosted by stratagem use, especially in their primary role of horde suppression. Terrible analogy.

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

OK, 3 units of Eliminators (216pts) shooting at a warlock jetseer guided by their sgt. Only 6 shots (sgt can't shoot), hit on 2's, wound on 2s, save on 4+ is still only 2.08 wounds on average. A warlock jetseer has 3 wounds. so again, my maths is fine, you are over reacting.

Also worth mentioning that the -1 to hit on Raven Guard is not for being in Cover(meaning it doesn't trigger off the Chapter trait itself).
It's for being on or within terrain.

Additionally, since I've had a few instances of Aeldari players thinking this is the case, Camo Cloaks for Marines are a modifier to the cover save not a modifier to being hit.

 bullyboy wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

OK, 3 units of Eliminators (216pts) shooting at a warlock jetseer guided by their sgt. Only 6 shots (sgt can't shoot), hit on 2's, wound on 2s, save on 4+ is still only 2.08 wounds on average. A warlock jetseer has 3 wounds. so again, my maths is fine, you are over reacting.

I told you your math is wrong.

9 shoots(using the sergeant to shoot) 7.5 hits with BS2, wound on 3 reroll 1 to wound, 5.833 wounds, damage 2.917 and that is without someone giving them reroll on hit or just having salamander successor trait.

Marin wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

A) i have seen what three Vindicare can do, but they can`t kill my LOS warlocks and spiritseers and are not rapidly deploying in most of the map. Also you pay more points for that and you spend detachment, so it`s more balanced.
B) Vindicare is also BS unit, but atleast he don`t easy access to rerolls and +1 or +2 to wound. 1 Vindicare have 1 shoot, have to chances to fail and he can`t be make more reliable vs bikers or monsters. Vindicare also have to roll 6 on the wound of his only shoot to kill my farseer and after that roll high damage. There are more places to fail and not many people are bringing 3 Vindicares.

You were clearly talking about the Eliminators using ammo other than the Los-ignoring one.
Vindicare hit AND wound your HQs on 2s and deal more damage and more mortal wounds than Eliminators. They ignore any invuln saves, they have higher Ap, they do additional mortal wounds almost automatically. 6+ wounds, that do one MW for Eliminators, increase the damage dice for Vindicare, which is 1.5 additional damage on average. The mortal wounds are on top of that, all the time.

Not many people bring 3 vindicare because that's just complete and utter overkill. All I need is one vindicare to pretty reliably kill your HQ,and If I do I get to shoot at another of your HQs for free.

Before you cry OP, please read the actual rules and compare them to other snipers by also reading their rules.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Also worth mentioning that the -1 to hit on Raven Guard is not for being in Cover(meaning it doesn't trigger off the Chapter trait itself).
It's for being on or within terrain.

Additionally, since I've had a few instances of Aeldari players thinking this is the case, Camo Cloaks for Marines are a modifier to the cover save not a modifier to being hit.

That is exactly what i said, i even did not add the +2 save, because aledar now have trait that ignore cove.

The issue is the super doctrine and dev doctrine.

Dev doctrine needs to be changed to not give you -1 AP on heavies (this is actually where most of the new space marine power comes from) it should be changed to make you ignore the -1 for moving and shooting heavies.

For the strong super doctrines on armies with strong chapter tactics like...RG/IH/IF - they need their super doctrine flat out removed or cut in half.

IH honestly don't need anything else - they get 3 traits for their tactic. With a change to dev doctrine being half of what all SM armies get at the expense of -1 AP on heavies - ironhands can keep their reroll 1's if they stay in dev doctrine.

IF don't need anything else. They get a 2 CP stratagem for free on ever GD unit in their army AND they ignore cover. They don't also need to do double damage to vehicles LOL. Let them reroll 1's if they are in cover or something.

RG have a great tactic but I would be okay with them getting +1 to hit with sniper weapons as a special rule as part of their chapter tactic.

Ultras tactic is very conditional and -1 LD is probably the least desirable effect you could ask for out of a whole list of undesirables. Ultras should just retain their super doctrine as part of their tactic in an effort to bump their trash chapter tactic.

Whitscars tactic is good for assaulting but also not doing much turn 1 or 2. Their super doctrine is great but turn 3 makes it useless. Because it is useless and they are a late game tactic - they should also have their super doctrine just folded into their chapter tactic.

Salamanders - same - fold into chapter tactic.

Successors? Custom chapter do not get the special bonus. First founding successors do.

Chapters not released yet? Attempt to make internally balanced rules.

2 most obvious things about these supplemenets and new dex.
SUPER DOCTRINES WERE A REALLY BAD IDEA.
CHAPTER TACTICS ARE LAUGHABLY UNBALANCED.

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

A) 9 Eliminators aren't 72 points. Have you seen what three Vindicare do to a single HQ?
B) if he was generating mortal wounds the HQs being shot were in LoS. Any sniper would have been able to kill that guy, a single vindicare would've done it.

A) i have seen what three Vindicare can do, but they can`t kill my LOS warlocks and spiritseers and are not rapidly deploying in most of the map. Also you pay more points for that and you spend detachment, so it`s more balanced.
B) Vindicare is also BS unit, but atleast he don`t easy access to rerolls and +1 or +2 to wound. 1 Vindicare have 1 shoot, have to chances to fail and he can`t be make more reliable vs bikers or monsters. Vindicare also have to roll 6 on the wound of his only shoot to kill my farseer and after that roll high damage. There are more places to fail and not many people are bringing 3 Vindicares.

You were clearly talking about the Eliminators using ammo other than the Los-ignoring one.
Vindicare hit AND wound your HQs on 2s and deal more damage and more mortal wounds than Eliminators. They ignore any invuln saves, they have higher Ap, they do additional mortal wounds almost automatically. 6+ wounds, that do one MW for Eliminators, increase the damage dice for Vindicare, which is 1.5 additional damage on average. The mortal wounds are on top of that, all the time.

Not many people bring 3 vindicare because that's just complete and utter overkill. All I need is one vindicare to pretty reliably kill your HQ,and If I do I get to shoot at another of your HQs for free.

Before you cry OP, please read the actual rules and compare them to other snipers by also reading their rules.

Lol with line of sight the numbers are even better. I just calculated to you that LOS don`t save squashy characters, something that can work vs Vindicare.
Also single Vindicare can fail quite easily on character with more wounds, that he wounds on 3+. Vindicare is hardly effective vs T5 or higher characters, Eliminators can get extra pluses to wound, can get rerolls to hit and wound, so they don`t suffer from such issues.
Eliminators are just more effective than Vindicare for less points, more reliable, easier to use. They are just too good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The issue is the super doctrine and dev doctrine.

Dev doctrine needs to be changed to not give you -1 AP on heavies (this is actually where most of the new space marine power comes from) it should be changed to make you ignore the -1 for moving and shooting heavies.

For the strong super doctrines on armies with strong chapter tactics like...RG/IH/IF - they need their super doctrine flat out removed or cut in half.

IH honestly don't need anything else - they get 3 traits for their tactic. With a change to dev doctrine being half of what all SM armies get at the expense of -1 AP on heavies - ironhands can keep their reroll 1's if they stay in dev doctrine.

IF don't need anything else. They get a 2 CP stratagem for free on ever GD unit in their army AND they ignore cover. They don't also need to do double damage to vehicles LOL. Let them reroll 1's if they are in cover or something.

RG have a great tactic but I would be okay with them getting +1 to hit with sniper weapons as a special rule as part of their chapter tactic.

Ultras tactic is very conditional and -1 LD is probably the least desirable effect you could ask for out of a whole list of undesirables. Ultras should just retain their super doctrine as part of their tactic in an effort to bump their trash chapter tactic.

Whitscars tactic is good for assaulting but also not doing much turn 1 or 2. Their super doctrine is great but turn 3 makes it useless. Because it is useless and they are a late game tactic - they should also have their super doctrine just folded into their chapter tactic.

Salamanders - same - fold into chapter tactic.

Successors? Custom chapter do not get the special bonus. First founding successors do.

Chapters not released yet? Attempt to make internally balanced rules.

2 most obvious things about these supplemenets and new dex.
SUPER DOCTRINES WERE A REALLY BAD IDEA.
CHAPTER TACTICS ARE LAUGHABLY UNBALANCED.

Naa they wont change the doctrines, i don`t believe it. We can expect mostly point increases.

I adamantly oppose point changes - how could that fix bad internal balance?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I adamantly oppose point changes - how could that fix bad internal balance?

Please don't bypass the language filter like this.

Reds8n

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

OK, 3 units of Eliminators (216pts) shooting at a warlock jetseer guided by their sgt. Only 6 shots (sgt can't shoot), hit on 2's, wound on 2s, save on 4+ is still only 2.08 wounds on average. A warlock jetseer has 3 wounds. so again, my maths is fine, you are over reacting.

I told you your math is wrong.

9 shoots(using the sergeant to shoot) 7.5 hits with BS2, wound on 3 reroll 1 to wound, 5.833 wounds, damage 2.917 and that is without someone giving them reroll on hit or just having salamander successor trait.

So you're conveniently putting a Lt close by all 3 units for reroll wounds of 1? So 300pts barely killed (still less than 3 wounds) a 67pt warlock....good job!!! Lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I adamantly oppose point changes - how could that fix bad internal balance?

By making traits actually cost according to the traits capability.

And balance would probably not really be reachable, but it would be better then what we have now.

This is bunk by design though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I adamantly oppose point changes - how could that fix bad internal balance?

By making traits actually cost according to the traits capability.

And balance would probably not really be reachable, but it would be better then what we have now.

Costing traits is a lot harder than nerfing traits to all be of similar power.

And how would you nerf them /buff them and not make them too similar which would ultimately defeat the whole purpose of traits?

 bullyboy wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I did the math for you guys. 9 eliminators does not kill a warlock on jetbike Turn 1. Therfore you have 1 turn to utilize Reapers and Nightspinners to take out the snipers. The sky is not falling.

I think you have to do the math again. With Sergent they kill warlock on bike without any problems.
3x Spinners kills max 3 eliminators per turn(because -1 to hit cover) and that is with the most anti marine combo expert crafters+ masterful shoots.
Masterful shoots remove bonus to save and not the -1 to hit. Without this it`s even worst 1-2 models, with autarch you can get a 1 extra model.

I watched games where for 1 turn 9 eliminators killed Shadowseer, for 2 turn 2 units killed Calgar.
I lost Farseer from 1 unit for 1 turn, because i failed 2 saves and with the rerolls and mortal wounds its almost impossible for this guys to miss something.
This damage should never coast 72 pts.
Because dice can always happen, and its much harder to get average 4++ than to hit on 2 and reroll 1.
If you start putting more LOS shooting or other treats, now they have Impulsion who can safely hide SM BS units.

OK, 3 units of Eliminators (216pts) shooting at a warlock jetseer guided by their sgt. Only 6 shots (sgt can't shoot), hit on 2's, wound on 2s, save on 4+ is still only 2.08 wounds on average. A warlock jetseer has 3 wounds. so again, my maths is fine, you are over reacting.

I told you your math is wrong.

9 shoots(using the sergeant to shoot) 7.5 hits with BS2, wound on 3 reroll 1 to wound, 5.833 wounds, damage 2.917 and that is without someone giving them reroll on hit or just having salamander successor trait.

So you're conveniently putting a Lt close by all 3 units for reroll wounds of 1? So 300pts barely killed (still less than 3 wounds) a 67pt warlock....good job!!! Lol.

You can kill single unit for 1-2 turns and get alot of value. If i can remove the captain for 1-2 turns, do you think i`ll not be happy to spend 300 pts doing that ?
Units that are not suicide to do that and have to be removed or do even more damage ?

Marin wrote:

Lol with line of sight the numbers are even better. I just calculated to you that LOS don`t save squashy characters, something that can work vs Vindicare.
Also single Vindicare can fail quite easily on character with more wounds, that he wounds on 3+. Vindicare is hardly effective vs T5 or higher characters, Eliminators can get extra pluses to wound, can get rerolls to hit and wound, so they don`t suffer from such issues.
Eliminators are just more effective than Vindicare for less points, more reliable, easier to use. They are just too good.

Vindicare wound any infantry on 2+, and Eldar bikes on 3+. Sure, they're less effective against bikes, I'll give you that. But most HQ are Infantry.
Just do the math for a vindicare. Is it really less than 1damage on average? Because that's what's needed here to support your argument, isn't it?
Don't forget to factor in headshot and D6 damage on wounds of 6+, and let's assume there's no negative tohit modifier (which he'd ignore) and no cover (which he'd ignore, too) or how much harder it is to get rid of him, compared to Eliminators.