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9 shoots(using the sergeant to shoot) 7.5 hits with BS2, wound on 3 reroll 1 to wound, 5.833 wounds, damage 2.917 and that is without someone giving them reroll on hit or just having salamander successor trait.
Are you telling me that 216 points worth of units have an on average chance of killing a 67 point unit?
Are you telling me that you dont want to build redundancy into your list like the marine player bringing 3 units of eliminators?
Remember that Marine Vs Marine is also a common match up these days so its not like the Marine player gets off scott free. He also has to worry about his supporting characters.
To be fair - you will have trouble hiding from eliminators anyways because they infiltrate.
And if they infiltrate forward you should have an easier time getting to them, to kill them or wrap them. They die in close combat like most other marines, unless they have the overwatch move sergeant but that cuts down shots to 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: The squad size limitation is unreasonable for eliminators though being phobos...they have spells in phobos tree that would be good if you could use them on anything but 3 man squads.
We have people crying about Eliminators being broken and you want them to be made even stronger? Have some sensitivity man.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/31 01:42:41
Eliminators are good but they are far from broken, squad size sees to that.
I have zero sympathy for Eldar players in this area (and this is coming from someone building Ravenguard and who plays Eldar regularly). You are not completely dependent upon warlock buffs, and for the most part, many people don't take them because they're overcosted. (at least the bike version is more reasonable). You get the same psychic powers with Hemlocks and Spiritseers. You have excellent counter battery options in Tempest Launchers, hemlocks, Night Spinners, etc. It really isn't an issue...literally at all. A Ravenguard sniper unit gets deadlier in Turn 2, certainly not in Turn 1. This gives you a chance to do something first.
bullyboy wrote: Eliminators are good but they are far from broken, squad size sees to that.
I have zero sympathy for Eldar players in this area (and this is coming from someone building Ravenguard and who plays Eldar regularly). You are not completely dependent upon warlock buffs, and for the most part, many people don't take them because they're overcosted. (at least the bike version is more reasonable). You get the same psychic powers with Hemlocks and Spiritseers. You have excellent counter battery options in Tempest Launchers, hemlocks, Night Spinners, etc. It really isn't an issue...literally at all. A Ravenguard sniper unit gets deadlier in Turn 2, certainly not in Turn 1. This gives you a chance to do something first.
honestly the complaints about this I swear boil down to "how dare marines have counters for my tricks! they're supposed to sit there and take it!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
honestly the complaints about this I swear boil down to "how dare marines have counters for my tricks! they're supposed to sit there and take it!"
Ultimately this is the forum screaming into the void. People playing with adjust and learn. GW will make the requisite tweaks.
The more armies that have various tools the more variety we'll see in lists. I started opposing nerfs to IS back when the Assassins Index / GSC popped up, because it would force IG to get bodyguards or the IS would suffer from lack of command. When's the last time we've seen someone complain about IS -- even before marines popped out?
honestly the complaints about this I swear boil down to "how dare marines have counters for my tricks! they're supposed to sit there and take it!"
Ultimately this is the forum screaming into the void. People playing with adjust and learn. GW will make the requisite tweaks.
The more armies that have various tools the more variety we'll see in lists. I started opposing nerfs to IS back when the Assassins Index / GSC popped up, because it would force IG to get bodyguards or the IS would suffer from lack of command. When's the last time we've seen someone complain about IS -- even before marines popped out?
sorry IS?
and yeah I agree, folks tend to scream "NERF IT" too fast, sometimes something really is OP sure, but just as often there is counters aplenty for what they're complaining about and they just don't want to have to adjust/adapt their list/tactics.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
and yeah I agree, folks tend to scream "NERF IT" too fast, sometimes something really is OP sure, but just as often there is counters aplenty for what they're complaining about and they just don't want to have to adjust/adapt their list/tactics.
The new marines are throwing a massive wrench in the meta works currently, so I understand some initial responses. But it's still not as bad as some are crying, especially issues such as this. I played a 2 vs 1 game last weekend (Allies of Convenience) where I had 1000pts of wraithguard (3xWG, 2 WL, SS, BS) in the open while my drukhari partner hid. The UM player seized and basically unloaded his entire force at me at close range. I survived (I lost 2 units of WG and a few wounds on a WL), and my remaining units, in conjunction with the Drukhari put the hurt on the UM player. We ended up losing, but it was close. I was impressed how resilient my unbuffed (no psychic phase) wraith constructs were in the face of this enormous firepower.
I love the new marines.....they truly feel dangerous, as they should. They've been the laughing stock of 8th for the most part (with a few exceptions), but not anymore. There are some current armies that don't have much of answer at the moment (hey, I also play Dark Angels) and I feel for those players. Eldar don't sit in that camp. With the new Phoenix Rising, while not overly powerful by itself, it has opened up the toolbox to some units to be very effective. People are going to have to plan for marines right now, no doubt...but I think it will balance out a little more in a month or two.
and yeah I agree, folks tend to scream "NERF IT" too fast, sometimes something really is OP sure, but just as often there is counters aplenty for what they're complaining about and they just don't want to have to adjust/adapt their list/tactics.
Infantry Squads - the previous big bad.
ahh.
but yeah I think the reason people are panicing about eliminators is that so many people design their armies around overlapping buffs/strats etc and eliminators can really put a screw onto that, but once people adapt to the idea that the unit exists it'll be a non issue. especially as it's not like eliminators can't be dealt with, in the end it's a 3 mode 2 wound 3+ armor save unit
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
but yeah I think the reason people are panicing about eliminators is that so many people design their armies around overlapping buffs/strats etc and eliminators can really put a screw onto that, but once people adapt to the idea that the unit exists it'll be a non issue. especially as it's not like eliminators can't be dealt with, in the end it's a 3 mode 2 wound 3+ armor save unit
There's some valid gripe to them since RG ones will be +2 to saves and -1 to be hit. Some armies lack tools to take them on, but I'm ok hoping into rhinos for the moment.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm sorry but if your army needs 1-2 spells cast each turn to not suck, then the problem is not "OMG! OP Space Marines" your problem is YOUR ARMY IS POORLY DESIGNED.
Just in case you play Daemons, CSM, TS, DG, Asuryani, Ynnari, Harlequin, Orks, GSC, Tyranids, or GK, you should all know, your armies are horribly designed and you should feel bad for making such a poor choice.
BD has a solution though, git gud, stop playing bad armies nubs.
Thanks BD, that's some insightful commentary there.
Wow, that's a strawman if I've ever seen one, and an angry one at that.
Army design isn't the responsibility of the players. What's the thought process that goes from reading "gw botched the army design of eg Eldar, so that is what needs to be fixed" to this angry rant? Its not any players fault, and BD didn't claim otherwise. All he (and others) are saying is that if an army is so very dependant on a single weak character, that is the issue - not that there is one (among many others) unit that, if taken three times, can kill that unit somewhat reliably.
Most of these arguments were made when the new assassin rules came out. Every time a good sniper unit enters the meta people are made painfully aware just how awful the alternatives for keeping characters safe are. Transports are usually overcosted, break/disable abilities like litanies, and are usually light vehicles in a meta where people spam light ap/high ROF weapons. Some characters flat out can't take transports for a variety of reasons. Bodyguards are either too well equipped to be used as ablative wounds or stripped down so they are dead weight if you don't need the wounds. That's also assuming the army even has access to bodyguards. Hiding out of LOS can work if the terrain permits, but that's another issue altogether. Snipers are working as intended, their answers are not.
All of this is just a reversal of the "smash captains" bs we saw a year or so ago.
It's all whining about how "my army is now crap because of a rule change", and "My army NEEDS this specific unit to function." It's all BS.
Adapt and conquer. I'm not saying "Git Gud". I'm saying take a hard look at how you have been playing and make the changes you need to. Just like the "smash captain" armies had to.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
but yeah I think the reason people are panicing about eliminators is that so many people design their armies around overlapping buffs/strats etc and eliminators can really put a screw onto that, but once people adapt to the idea that the unit exists it'll be a non issue. especially as it's not like eliminators can't be dealt with, in the end it's a 3 mode 2 wound 3+ armor save unit
There's some valid gripe to them since RG ones will be +2 to saves and -1 to be hit. Some armies lack tools to take them on, but I'm ok hoping into rhinos for the moment.
I am not sure its a real gripe though. You do not deal efficiently with Eliminators by shooting them period. Even standard Eliminators are tough to remove and they usually will be deployed in cover. Certainly some armies will struggle more than others. Good luck to guard players trying to remove them!
but yeah I think the reason people are panicing about eliminators is that so many people design their armies around overlapping buffs/strats etc and eliminators can really put a screw onto that, but once people adapt to the idea that the unit exists it'll be a non issue. especially as it's not like eliminators can't be dealt with, in the end it's a 3 mode 2 wound 3+ armor save unit
There's some valid gripe to them since RG ones will be +2 to saves and -1 to be hit. Some armies lack tools to take them on, but I'm ok hoping into rhinos for the moment.
I am not sure its a real gripe though. You do not deal efficiently with Eliminators by shooting them period. Even standard Eliminators are tough to remove and they usually will be deployed in cover. Certainly some armies will struggle more than others. Good luck to guard players trying to remove them!
A basalisk isn't many more points but would proably be a pretty effective way to taking out eliminators.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
I feel it makes sense that you would use artillery to clear out entrenched infantry you cant easily reach any other way.
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
At least guard characters dont give out that amazing or important buffs most of the time and are very cheap and replacable. So losing one or two is annoying but not game deciding since doubling the effectivess of a 40pt unit isnt that powerful compared to casting da jump on 30 boys or buffing 30 plaguebearers. Or removing the FNP/++ save bubble some characters bring.
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
I feel it makes sense that you would use artillery to clear out entrenched infantry you cant easily reach any other way.
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
At least guard characters dont give out that amazing or important buffs most of the time and are very cheap and replacable. So losing one or two is annoying but not game deciding since doubling the effectivess of a 40pt unit isnt that powerful compared to casting da jump on 30 boys or buffing 30 plaguebearers. Or removing the FNP/++ save bubble some characters bring.
right, the only chaeracters who are going to be one shotted by eliminators are going to be 40 point characters, and if a character is 40 points you can proably take spares.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
I feel it makes sense that you would use artillery to clear out entrenched infantry you cant easily reach any other way.
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
At least guard characters dont give out that amazing or important buffs most of the time and are very cheap and replacable. So losing one or two is annoying but not game deciding since doubling the effectivess of a 40pt unit isnt that powerful compared to casting da jump on 30 boys or buffing 30 plaguebearers. Or removing the FNP/++ save bubble some characters bring.
right, the only chaeracters who are going to be one shotted by eliminators are going to be 40 point characters, and if a character is 40 points you can proably take spares.
You can't bring spare CCs as guard since you're bringing 3,the maximum for regular game sizes, anyway - which isnt enough for all the things you want to order around. But that's an issue with the guard, not with snipers, as well.
You can always bring the elite commanders if you really need more orders or straken/kreed or use some warlord traits or relics as well. Not like you really need to give an order every turn. You improve 33-40pts units mostly while paying 30pts for a character. Snipers could kill the unit you are buffing instead of the supporting characters for almost the same effect, especially eliminators. For each CC they snipe out of los they could have killed an infantry squad in sight. For vindicares with only 1 shot you really need to focus on the commanders or it is a wasted model but not for sniper squads.
Karol wrote: Then why not just drop a bit unit of centurions turn 2, alongside a chaplain, get them buffed by bolter drill, buffed by the chaplain, buffed from the RG trait and the doctrine, and then just unload 15 hits on avarge in to any character 12" away from the centurions?
Chaplains can't buff when they arrive from reserves. They're actually kinda tricky to line up right.
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
.
Just out of curiosity, what RG successor traits do you think are better than the original?
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
.
Just out of curiosity, what RG successor traits do you think are better than the original?
Almost all of them? If you take stealthy you still get the cover bonus and can take extra charge or rerolls or whatever suits you better. Tactics that work in all matchups. The - to hit doesnt work on vehicles or against melee armies. Also not that useful for your close combat units that due to RG stratagems, traits and powers will be too close to benefit from the - to hit or cover bonus. And you also lose the best part of stealthy that is not being reliable on the table terrain to get cover save but if you want the other part(-to hit) you lose the first(cover everywhere).
The RGCT isnt weak but its only 1 CT when most get 2. If you dont want the cheap CM in Shrike and 2 relics there isnt a good reason to stay pure RG. Which you can see in a lot of lists. They go RG successor and take Stealthy + something else that will always be good in all matchups.
You kinda need to play a infantry gunline to really benefit from RG chapter tactic. But half your stuff is about getting close without enemy being able to shoot you first. If it worked on vehicles and RG was about slowly walking up the board and had a few more abilities to buff infantry then it would be nice. But if you have scouts, invictors, assault centurions, vanguard veterans and a few characters ready to charge turn 1 your CT doesnt do much at all.
Not worth losing Master Artisan for making your eliminators and intercessors in the back harder to hit. The opponent wont even have time to think about those units when half your army is already in his face
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/01 13:20:22
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
.
Just out of curiosity, what RG successor traits do you think are better than the original?
Almost all of them? If you take stealthy you still get the cover bonus and can take extra charge or rerolls or whatever suits you better. Tactics that work in all matchups. The - to hit doesnt work on vehicles or against melee armies. Also not that useful for your close combat units that due to RG stratagems, traits and powers will be too close to benefit from the - to hit or cover bonus. And you also lose the best part of stealthy that is not being reliable on the table terrain to get cover save but if you want the other part(-to hit) you lose the first(cover everywhere).
The RGCT isnt weak but its only 1 CT when most get 2. If you dont want the cheap CM in Shrike and 2 relics there isnt a good reason to stay pure RG. Which you can see in a lot of lists. They go RG successor and take Stealthy + something else that will always be good in all matchups.
You kinda need to play a infantry gunline to really benefit from RG chapter tactic. But half your stuff is about getting close without enemy being able to shoot you first. If it worked on vehicles and RG was about slowly walking up the board and had a few more abilities to buff infantry then it would be nice. But if you have scouts, invictors, assault centurions, vanguard veterans and a few characters ready to charge turn 1 your CT doesnt do much at all.
Not worth losing Master Artisan for making your eliminators and intercessors in the back harder to hit. The opponent wont even have time to think about those units when half your army is already in his face
That's the thing though, if I wanted vehicles, there are so many better options than successor Ravenguard. I'm using the minus to hit in my plans for board control, in conjunction with smoke grenades etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/01 15:03:45
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
.
Just out of curiosity, what RG successor traits do you think are better than the original?
I'm actually 6-0 as of right now using Stealthy + Long Range Marksmen.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Smirrors wrote: Yup guard players need to take basilisks over wyverns due to the marine match up. But a basilisk would likely be aiming at higher priority targets than eliminators. The fact that guard has to use their prized artillery to remove infantry snipers is a real dilemma
Most eliminators will not have - 1 to hit since RG succesor is stronger than RG. And the marine player is using his expensive(compared to target) snipers for killing 30-50 wounds characters. And if the eliminators can get to fire their good ammunition they are easy targets for any plasma tank commander.
.
Just out of curiosity, what RG successor traits do you think are better than the original?
Almost all of them? If you take stealthy you still get the cover bonus and can take extra charge or rerolls or whatever suits you better. Tactics that work in all matchups. The - to hit doesnt work on vehicles or against melee armies. Also not that useful for your close combat units that due to RG stratagems, traits and powers will be too close to benefit from the - to hit or cover bonus. And you also lose the best part of stealthy that is not being reliable on the table terrain to get cover save but if you want the other part(-to hit) you lose the first(cover everywhere).
The RGCT isnt weak but its only 1 CT when most get 2. If you dont want the cheap CM in Shrike and 2 relics there isnt a good reason to stay pure RG. Which you can see in a lot of lists. They go RG successor and take Stealthy + something else that will always be good in all matchups.
You kinda need to play a infantry gunline to really benefit from RG chapter tactic. But half your stuff is about getting close without enemy being able to shoot you first. If it worked on vehicles and RG was about slowly walking up the board and had a few more abilities to buff infantry then it would be nice. But if you have scouts, invictors, assault centurions, vanguard veterans and a few characters ready to charge turn 1 your CT doesnt do much at all.
Not worth losing Master Artisan for making your eliminators and intercessors in the back harder to hit. The opponent wont even have time to think about those units when half your army is already in his face
That's the thing though, if I wanted vehicles, there are so many better options than successor Ravenguard. I'm using the minus to hit in my plans for board control, in conjunction with smoke grenades etc.
Invictors and TFC are vehicles that are good in all lists and benefit from Master Artisan quite well and work in RG. A pure gunline with mostly vehicles shouldnt go for RG that I agree on but there are still vehicles to be seen and used with RG and they benefit way more as successor than as RG.
