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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

Whilest the hammer boys are nice and all considering warptalons have also an inbuilt no overwatch mechanic, are daemons (e.g. SHENANIGANS ARE READY), come with a jumppack aswell.
I kinda doubt that, of course marines have more delivery methods, but Chaos got charge reroll aswell.
And we don't really see warptalons because they pay too much for to little.
In a way Melee units need to be point and click, or able to tie down something indefinately to be "worth it".
Point and click because the unit tends to be a glass cannon. Or massed enough that a unit serves to constrict the enemies reactions via existence on 25 / 32 mm bases.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

I don't think anybody denies that parts of the Banshee's kit are very strong. The stumbling block for them is always S3 A2; that just doesn't cut it for an Elite melee unit if they want to deal damage, and they're not tough enough to work as a decent tarpit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

1. Banshees are bad.
2. It's hilarious to mention point and click in a thread where you then compare Banshees to Marines.

This is just a bad take, Daedalus. I know you like to theorycraft and sometimes you hit onto some really interesting ideas, but in this case, there's plenty of credence to the conventional wisdom. You wanna light it up with Banshees? Be my guest, I'd love to see it happen. But lots of people have tried and they're not winning these games.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch can be frustrating sometimes but one unit with ignore overwatch can cause your whole army to get locked up without ever firing a shot in overwatch. It's just silly IMO. Typically overwatch does very little damage anyways but sometimes can be game changing. By compariosn though - there aren't any rules that give you "ignore shooting" or "ignore melee".

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong". A certain favourite individual on this board said that about Reivers but at least they're more viable than Banshees.
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

Totally. Probably hits harder than 2 units of banshee. Gets to combat much easier without need of a serpent. Has a standard 3++. Character protection. Banshee are GARBAGE.

Klickor wrote:

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

Just to clarify, my issue with Overwatch isn't that it's too strong. My issue is that 90% of the time it's just a time-wasting mechanic. It does nothing but make the game drag on as any and all charge rolls necessitate rolling a bunch of dice in the hope that a tiny fraction of them might actually accomplish something. And even when they do, it's not rewarding skill or tactics but sheer dumb luck.

IMO Overwatch should be made at something like -1BS but should then require that the Overwatching unit skip its next shooting phase (or something to that effect). In essence, make it an actual choice with consequences - not just an automatic event with no cost whatsoever.

Sorry, I know I'm getting off topic but Overwatch is something of a bugbear of mine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

So there's a "point and click" unit in the Codex that fulfils the same role as Banshees, better. That's a design failure. You might have a point if there was some hidden nuance that made Banshees better than their stat-line suggests. But there isn't. This idea that you just have to learn how to use these "expert" units is usually a load of rubbish, frankly. It seems to be the same here. If there's actually a hidden, not-so-obvious way to utilise Banshees that makes them good why not explain it rather than hiding behind a vague idea of hidden depths?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

My apologies for drawing that conclusion, I drew it from you comment on the difficulties of melee.

I think the spectacle is cool deepstriking banshees into the board or getting that first turn charge which is why I brought them in the first place but when 10 of them deal two wounds to a squad of Intercessors the fun is suddenly a lot less fun when a portion of your army is destroyed in what they're supposed to be good at.

I have had some success with 5 woman squads charging telemons for instance but that was largely due to my opponent making a mistake and you can't rely on that at the top tables.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Occam's Razor says that's because SM is OP a feth right now. I mean, a significant number of tourney regulars flat switched to marines for SCO, for obvious reasons, the results of which were demonstrated very clearly in the results.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Occam's Razor says that's because SM is OP a feth right now. I mean, a significant number of tourney regulars flat switched to marines for SCO, for obvious reasons, the results of which were demonstrated very clearly in the results.

I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

You'd need 3 detachments with this:

The Webway Strike Stratagem (see Codex: Craftworlds)
can be used one additional time per battle for
each Detachment (excluding Auxiliary Support
Detachments) in your army that contains units with
this attribute. The second and any subsequent uses of
this Stratagem can only be used to set up units with this
attribute in the webway.

First use is Asurmen and JZ for 3 CP. Then 3 additional uses at 1 CP each.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

You'd need 3 detachments with this:

The Webway Strike Stratagem (see Codex: Craftworlds)
can be used one additional time per battle for
each Detachment (excluding Auxiliary Support
Detachments) in your army that contains units with
this attribute. The second and any subsequent uses of
this Stratagem can only be used to set up units with this
attribute in the webway.

First use is Asurmen and JZ for 3 CP. Then 3 additional uses at 1 CP each.

Right, mea culpa.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Right, mea culpa.

No worries. It'd likely never get used, but its fun to think about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

Totally. Probably hits harder than 2 units of banshee. Gets to combat much easier without need of a serpent. Has a standard 3++. Character protection. Banshee are GARBAGE.

You could easily do a Dreaming Shadow Harlequin detachment too to gain access to a Death Jester w/ Curtainfall and a Solitaire w/ the Rose. Add in three 6 man Harlequins w/ Fusion Pistols in those transports and you have a solid lineup to any Eldar force (in my opinion at least).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

The playtesters at FLG warned GW that the SM changes were too much.

GW ignored them and went forward.

Tournament results predictably reflected the results of that decision.

An indictment of GW competence and/or motives is completely warranted.

But keep looking for a more complicated answer.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

The playtesters at FLG warned GW that the SM changes were too much.

GW ignored them and went forward.

Tournament results predictably reflected the results of that decision.

An indictment of GW competence and/or motives is completely warranted.

But keep looking for a more complicated answer.

Perhaps if you've followed all my recent comments you might understand my position better, but instead you just crash around on isolated comments with your bs. I have no desire to engage with you in conversation, because you're clearly unwilling to discuss anything beyond your current frame of mind.

vipoid wrote:
Just to clarify, my issue with Overwatch isn't that it's too strong. My issue is that 90% of the time it's just a time-wasting mechanic. It does nothing but make the game drag on as any and all charge rolls necessitate rolling a bunch of dice in the hope that a tiny fraction of them might actually accomplish something. And even when they do, it's not rewarding skill or tactics but sheer dumb luck.

IMO Overwatch should be made at something like -1BS but should then require that the Overwatching unit skip its next shooting phase (or something to that effect). In essence, make it an actual choice with consequences - not just an automatic event with no cost whatsoever.

Sorry, I know I'm getting off topic but Overwatch is something of a bugbear of mine.

This is also my opinion on overwatch, though I think it should just go away. There are some cases where it has a major effect on the game, like a squad with 5 flamers or Tau Supporting Fire, but the majority of the time it's a formality that takes up time and achieves nothing. From the charging perspective, I'm going to make melee with what I want anyway and have the effect I want, from the defending perspective I'm not going to stop the charge anyway so why bother with the dog and pony show.

I understand the purpose of it academically, and it is reasonably effective at what it's supposed to do. Discourage declaration of charges against everything within 12", preventing chargers from always aiming for the best possible result. There's no real penalty for aiming for the best and not making it except potential extra overwatch that might achieve something, and close quarters combat is brutally powerful, so maybe it shouldn't be entirely gone.

From the perspective of streamlining the process, something like -1" for each target declared would probably be better.

From the perspective of creating effective defensive fire, though, it actually needs to be effective more than a formality.


This isn't really on the topic of the Psychic Awakening book and Howling Banshees, though. Howling Banshees aren't effective against Space Marines due to lack of S and aren't effective against light infantry due to lack of A. They seem to be envisioned as an interference unit to take maximum advantage of what can be done in melee, but they pay for power swords that makes them too expensive for that.

The book itself seems more on the fluff than the rules, though. It's definitely obviously incongruous and striking how Space Marines can use successor tactics with the supplement stratagems and rules while Eldar can't, but Space Marines are also broken as all f*** right now because of that. I wonder what CSM will get in the next one.

 Xenomancers wrote:

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

And when the protect psyker gets sniped?

#15 Spears, Hawks, 3 Prisms, 1 Spinner, 3 CHE with ignore cover and in cover over 12" narrowly beat Pampreen's successors with 18 Cents and handily beat a marine list with 3 Repulsors, 3 TFCs, 7 Aggressors, and Bobby
#18 Aeldari was CHE & Skyrunner spam, but faced only two vehicle heavy marines and beat them all.
#19 with a Alaitoc list narrowly lost to infantry based RG (1 point)
#22 with Spears / Reapers / Black Heart plus Yvraine / Ynnari Yncarne - tied IH 6 Cents, 3 Hawks, Scorpius, Levi, 6 Eliminators, TFC and soundly beat UM 8 Aggressors, 3 Invictors, Relic Levi, Cassius, Tiggy, and Bobby

The next closest Aeldari is #48 - 3 Razorwing, Yvraine, Kab & Venom spam, 3 Ravs - lost to WS 10 Cents, 2 TFC, 9 Elims, WW

So of the first 5 Aeldari players they fought nu-Marines 7 out of 30 times. Of those 7 games they went 5-1-1. Two games were RPS (CHE & haywire vs vehicles). The games against Cents were won by 1 point or a tie both with less conventional lists. The wins against other non-vehicle and non-cent lists were strong wins.

In the occasions I took note of T'au trounced Aeldari.

So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

I kind of enjoy the theory that nu-Marines are simultaneously totally broken, but easily defeated and the PA book for Eldar is useful, but also trash.

Time to pick a lane, guys.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.

Yes, apparently an endless number of them. Someday the data will support your cognitive bias!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Time to pick a lane, guys.

Keep cherrypicking Daed, don't look at the data trends, the complicated answer is clearly the right one! GW couldn't have screwed things up as bad as the data suggests!

The Phoenix Rising book IS trash. All it did was give Exarchs some abilities their own Phoenix Lords don't have for whatever reason.

I'm just saying the Banshees aren't useful for charging the Centurions and I proceeded to show how.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

And when the protect psyker gets sniped?

#15 Spears, Hawks, 3 Prisms, 1 Spinner, 3 CHE with ignore cover and in cover over 12" narrowly beat Pampreen's successors with 18 Cents and handily beat a marine list with 3 Repulsors, 3 TFCs, 7 Aggressors, and Bobby
#18 Aeldari was CHE & Skyrunner spam, but faced only two vehicle heavy marines and beat them all.
#19 with a Alaitoc list narrowly lost to infantry based RG (1 point)
#22 with Spears / Reapers / Black Heart plus Yvraine / Ynnari Yncarne - tied IH 6 Cents, 3 Hawks, Scorpius, Levi, 6 Eliminators, TFC and soundly beat UM 8 Aggressors, 3 Invictors, Relic Levi, Cassius, Tiggy, and Bobby

The next closest Aeldari is #48 - 3 Razorwing, Yvraine, Kab & Venom spam, 3 Ravs - lost to WS 10 Cents, 2 TFC, 9 Elims, WW

So of the first 5 Aeldari players they fought nu-Marines 7 out of 30 times. Of those 7 games they went 5-1-1. Two games were RPS (CHE & haywire vs vehicles). The games against Cents were won by 1 point or a tie both with less conventional lists. The wins against other non-vehicle and non-cent lists were strong wins.

In the occasions I took note of T'au trounced Aeldari.

So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.





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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

I kind of enjoy the theory that nu-Marines are simultaneously totally broken, but easily defeated and the PA book for Eldar is useful, but also trash.

Time to pick a lane, guys.

Marines are players now - they need some fixes and they are gonna get them. The ironhands fix was pretty good. Now they just need to probably fix the most OP combos coming out of the supplements. IF super doctrine needs to only apply to weapons of str 8 or more. Realistically eldar are still eldar. You aren't gonna auto win vs these new eldar ether. They are probably at about the same power level and nu marines.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Phoenix Rising book IS trash. All it did was give Exarchs some abilities their own Phoenix Lords don't have for whatever reason.

I'm just saying the Banshees aren't useful for charging the Centurions and I proceeded to show how.

Don't forget the CWE custom traits. Uninspired but certainly a huge jump in power for a lot of units.