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ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Harlequins are in such a weird space and it's a shame that Phoenix Rising gave them literally nothing. I know it'd suck for pure Harlequins players, but I almost think they'd be better off if they were still just options in the Craftworlds/Drukhari codices.

This will tick off Harlequin players, but they shouldn't be an army in 40K, so complaining about the lack of kits/units is kind of silly. They're just one of GW's "gimmick armies" like Grey Knights. Lore-wise they should not deploy as "an army", and they have models representing most (if not more) than anything mentioned in the fluff lore.

Harlequins should have remained as basic Eldar allies (an option in the main codex), just as Grey Knights should have been put into an Agents of the Imperium book (and should have been far better, without the new kits/models). The small "specialist" armies are really just cash-grabs from GW. Expecting heavy model support or deep lines of options is a bit naive/silly.

 Elbows wrote:
This will tick off Harlequin players, but they shouldn't be an army in 40K, so complaining about the lack of kits/units is kind of silly. They're just one of GW's "gimmick armies" like Grey Knights. Lore-wise they should not deploy as "an army", and they have models representing most (if not more) than anything mentioned in the fluff lore.

Harlequins should have remained as basic Eldar allies (an option in the main codex), just as Grey Knights should have been put into an Agents of the Imperium book (and should have been far better, without the new kits/models). The small "specialist" armies are really just cash-grabs from GW. Expecting heavy model support or deep lines of options is a bit naive/silly.

*cough* grey knights *cough* custodes *cough* chaos demons *cough* deathwatch *cough* death guard *cough* space wolves *cough* blood angels *cough* genestealer cults *cough* thousand sons *cough* basically every single one of the marine/chaos marine chapters who inexplicably got their own book instead of being rolled into a marine codex *COUGH*

Oh man. Had a really bad coughing fit there.

But yes, you are correct, that WOULD tick off harlequin players. It would tick off any player who plays an army when people say "yeah your army shouldn't really exist". Especially considering GW has given TONS of little offshoots of armies their own codexes on a regular basis all the time.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

The reality is that players WANT their special faction to be represented, but often it's really hard to make these into full fledged armies. There are always going to be some that just rely on soup to get all the tools. Harlequins will likely never ever be a "full" faction.

I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

The only problem I have with them atm is the base rules they get are sooooooooooooooo boring. Here are the unique mechanics harlequins lost between 7th and 8th:

1) Death Jesters used to enable you to move enemy units in a direction of your choosing. Now they're just a MASSIVELY overpriced shuriken cannon that might dish out a LD bonus to be summarily ignored by every faction in the game. They still used to suck, but at least they had the potential to be fun.

2) shadowseers used to allow you to stack up negative ld modifiers and pop enemy characters with Mirror of Minds. Now that power is wholly random, but several other armies have LD-targeting mortal wound powers...just not Harlequins.

3) Star bolas used to be a one-shot pop alpha strike weapon choice that you'd put on the whole unit (That's why both models in the kit can be equipped with them.) They are now a grenade type weapon, so only one model in the unit even CAN use them, and they're not one use only, they're just a fairly gakky grenade shooting attack.

4) You used to have an anti-tank pistol, a cheaper anti-elite pistol (which wounded infantry and monsters on a 2+ but didn't effect vehicles at all), and a free anti-infantry pistol to choose from. Now, you can "Upgrade" from S8 AP-4 Dd6 melta to...S4 Ap-3 Dd3. What the feth yall. They've had so many balance passes to fix neuro pistols.

5) you used to have an anti-elite/anti-character melee weapon (which caused instant death on a 6), an anti-tank melee weapon (which wounded any model on a 6 to hit, otherwise was just a chainsword), and an anti-horde melee weapon (gave you more attacks on the charge.) You now have three directly competing weapons that all have similar strengths and damage outputs, meaning one is always the most efficient weapon and the other two are always never-includes. Also, they all used to have unique rules, now they're flavors of boring-ass power weapon.

This isn't a situation where GW has given harlequins basically nothing since their inception, they've actively taken stuff away from them in a really obnoxious way.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

And when exactly have I ever defended marine offshoot codexes?
I have said before that IOM is the owner of the most "bloat". Followed by chaos and then Eldar.

The reason is obviously more books to sell. Why make 1-2 big codexes if you can make 6 smaller codexes and charge the same price for all 6?

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

I'm one of the people saying the offshoot Codices need to be eliminated for consolidation.

Really Harlequins didn't gain much as a codex. Troupe Master just became a separate dude, so that's basically just the vehicles and bikes.

Doesn't need to be it's own codex.

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

I don't buy that for a second. People think there isn't much to be done with Harlequins because GW never tried. If custodes didn't exist and someone said "Hey I think someone should make a custodes faction" you would likely hear "well there's not much you can do with them. They're basically marines but beefier. Why not just add a couple units to the existing marine codex. The same can be said about every chapter that got their own codex.

Creativity is not difficult. You just need someone who actually cares and is excited on the team.

Look. I'll rattle some ideas off the top of my head. It's not hard.

New troop choice. Mimes. Cheap groups of 10-20. They can infiltrate in. Their unique property is mimicking the number of attacks and weapon skill of anything they're in contact with. Unique. Flavorful. Opens up interesting counterplay to hordes of boyz or any other thing with tons of attacks.

New heavy choice. Some hover platform with a tall crescent obelisk sticking out of it. You would have to take them in pairs. And anytime your units would be shot while standing behind these units, if the shot goes through an imaginary line between the two you would be at an additional -1 to hit or +1 to your save or something. Basically a mobile forcefield. And you could switch it to an offensive mode to give your unit behind it +1 to hit or additional -1 to their AP shooting through it.

New fast attack choice that's basically a lone agent a la solitaire, but when they come into contact with a unit they sacrifice themselves to mind control a model for 1 turn.

New elite choice that makes itself immobile and swaps positions with an enemy unit it can see for a turn. Or opens a webway portal that can't be attacked anywhere on the map but it can't be used until next turn giving the opponent an opportunity to reposition/get ready.

Some sort of artillery unit that, instead of doing damage, mind controls a unit for your turn when it hits.

A flyer that inverts the enemy's weapon and ballistic skills around it. Something really tricksy that would make units with normally amazing accuracy miss (instead of hitting on 3+ you are missing on 3+) but would make negative modifiers work in your favor, and normally inaccurate models would suddenly become accurate.

A psychic power that has the two models go into combat as if they were adjacent to each other. You pick a melee weapon on the model and perform a number of attacks equal to your A stat to the enemy and vice vs. Like projecting a phantom of yourself to assassinate the enemy and they have a chance to fight back.

There's a lot you can do. GW is just lazy.

 Burnage wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Harlequins are in such a weird space and it's a shame that Phoenix Rising gave them literally nothing. I know it'd suck for pure Harlequins players, but I almost think they'd be better off if they were still just options in the Craftworlds/Drukhari codices.

There is enough Harlequins to keep them as a force, just b.c GW writes terrible rules doesn't mean you need to can them as an army, they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

PS: They were an army long before many of these other armies with many more units that are missing, just B.c GW is terrible doesn't mean we should squat an army.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

I don't think that's true at all. What army has fewer than 8 units?

And I think the problem is the exact opposite. Could we use some point tweaks? Sure. But almost everything we have is useful in some fashion. What we need is more variety (more units). A lot lot LOT more variety.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Oddly, despite what looked like a teaser with the fleur de lis in it, and being a book named Faith and Fury, their list of included factions did not include us. On the upside, since they did say we would get something out of PA, that implies that that something isn't "plastic models and a codex", which is good for us IMO.

would you really want to get something for sisters this early? anything sisters get in PA is proably content that was cut from the codex to toss in another book. if stuff like PA is "DLC" sisters content in PA2 would be day 1 DLC

Surely its the same as the massive mass of Marine models and Supplements that came out straight after the actual Space Marine Codex and see no sign of slowing down - oh look more Marine stuff in PA2?

Not saying its a good thing for the reasons you state but its possible that GW will do it?

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

I should not worry about that, Harlequins is army GW will expand sooner or latter.
What can help them in short term is point decrease on points. Troupe weapons can use the cut, so you can make more flexible detachments and also Starwaevers need the point cut.
There is no way SW coast 100 pts when we look what Impulsor is getting for the some price.

Porcupine, I appreciate your enthusiasm...but that's all it is. Your suggestions are not based on any fluff or lore, or any of the background behind the way Harlequins were originally presented. I'm sure the current codex is filled with some questionable ret-cons. You like Harlequins and that's cool, but you're just spit-balling turning a troupe of traveling actors/troublemakers into an army....and that's a serious stretch. It's equally as silly as a Grey Knights force showing up as an army...almost anywhere for any reason other than a massive Daemon uprising. In the original fluff it was a huge deal if a single squad of Grey Knights even appeared in a system...so what sense does it make to have a full army of them combating Orks or Eldar?

These are just desperate money-grabs...sacrificing lore/story for shifting grey plastic. Your suggestions would just be more egregious versions of that.

And regarding your earlier comments...yes I find almost everything you listed as a gimmick army, that could easily be combined into existing books.

Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

 Elbows wrote:
Porcupine, I appreciate your enthusiasm...but that's all it is. Your suggestions are not based on any fluff or lore, or any of the background behind the way Harlequins were originally presented. I'm sure the current codex is filled with some questionable ret-cons. You like Harlequins and that's cool, but you're just spit-balling turning a troupe of traveling actors/troublemakers into an army....and that's a serious stretch. It's equally as silly as a Grey Knights force showing up as an army...almost anywhere for any reason other than a massive Daemon uprising. In the original fluff it was a huge deal if a single squad of Grey Knights even appeared in a system...so what sense does it make to have a full army of them combating Orks or Eldar?

These are just desperate money-grabs...sacrificing lore/story for shifting grey plastic. Your suggestions would just be more egregious versions of that.

And regarding your earlier comments...yes I find almost everything you listed as a gimmick army, that could easily be combined into existing books.

Maybe some is, but there is some precedent for them using craftworld grav tanks. If they have there own book, throw the grav tanks in there with a rule to make them a little unique. They are also presented as a force that could be seen on the battlefields in the size that the game represents.

In this case, I think giving them access to some of the craftworld units, in a fun and expanding on there fluff just a little would be great.
They have always worked very close with the craftworlds and can be shown as such with little effort expended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

I don't think that's true at all. What army has fewer than 8 units?

And I think the problem is the exact opposite. Could we use some point tweaks? Sure. But almost everything we have is useful in some fashion. What we need is more variety (more units). A lot lot LOT more variety.

Unique, not shared, all SM share many units, some only have 7-12 unique units themselves. Harlequins has others that GW decided not to make (and take away actually).

Why can't Aeldari share units like SM? Their codexs would look much bigger too.

Dark Eldar vs Eldar is much akin to SM vs CSM. Main difference though is that the former two are functionally different and GW keeps missing the mark by just making CSM into Spiky Marines with less options.

Harlequins should be like Scions in the Guard codex. Sprinkle them where you feel like and you don't lose the bonus for the rest of the army, and if you go pure you get a certain bonus.

The idea that CWE and DE are somehow the same thing and should buddy up stems for the ynnari concept being rammed in... Thats like saying khorne berserkers might as well hang out with ultramarines with some space wolves and rubrics sprinkled in as one big happy family...

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

 Mr Morden wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

This is the list with the art for the Harlequin Land Raider, correct?

 Argive wrote:
The idea that CWE and DE are somehow the same thing and should buddy up stems for the ynnari concept being rammed in... Thats like saying khorne berserkers might as well hang out with ultramarines with some space wolves and rubrics sprinkled in as one big happy family...

No it's just not. A closer analogy would be the Soviets and the US fighting together against an alien invasion.

Asuryani and Drukhari are still Aeldari, regardless of the Ynnari, who I don't mind as a minor faction bit don't want them to be anything more than that.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

This is the list with the art for the Harlequin Land Raider, correct?

Yep as its an option in the army - although it might break down!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Another week of tournaments where 75% of the top four placements were taken by marines. Any minute now that meta's gonna adjust and everyone's gonna figure out the trick to beating 'em!

I can almost guarantee a few gravitron moirax can table assault cent spam with speedbumps in between. People were so absolutely focused on IH until the nerf on 10/17. That's basically two weeks for people to see and play upcoming lists. No, I don't think that is a relevant amount of time for people to adjust to a unit that basically has not been seen for over 3 years and certainly not in the quantities taken.

I'm not proclaiming everything is "ok", but a lot of the current lists are super one dimensional. There are certainly stronger lists out there and there are potentially counters. Personally, snipers are a bigger problem for me.

And, not to mention, CA coming up, which can take some of the bite out. Especially if cult marines go to W2.

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

I also hope that two wound cult units isn't true. I don't think people realize just how powerful a 100% increase in toughness against d1 weapons is. I did the math of an equal points of 25 ork boyz w/ nob vs 10 Khorne berzerkers with chain axe+ chain sword and the icon of wrath. If the orks get the charge, they get 12.7 wounds, going from a wiped squad to 6 marines and 1 wounded. Which can still kill 14 orks between the berserkers two attack phases (and note, this is without considering Legion/Clan traits). Meanwhile the orks get obliterated when charged, losing 17 orks to the first attack, and the 8 boy would get 2.9 on average. going from some sort of trade to losing. The difference is litreally orks going form wiping the squad to tying with the bezerkers and getting half it's points back to barely getting a 10th back if charged. And Berzerkers would get the least out of a wound increase.

After all, all the people who complaint want the same thing, more cheese for their army.

This is so sad.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

A part of me wonders if Harlequins should have been combined with DE.

I know it's not an ideal solution, but at least the two combined might form something resembling a complete army.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

Centurions and the new books create several issues not dealt with previously.

First, they're T5 so something like the disintegrator is suddenly 25% less effective. I have not seen anything in the way of hellblasters or any concentrated plasma for quite a while.

Second, they're 2+, which matters little on terminators it matters a ton here, because it takes so many more shots to reduce their effectiveness. There are few ap4 guns easily deployed meaning Cents have a save twice as good as marines in those scenarios.

Third, there is no way to bury them with bodies. If you can turn off overwatch even 120 swings from boys averages one. If you cant block overwatch? Dont even try.

Fourth, the Cents pack a gak ton of high quality attacks. 25 to a unit of 6 at S10 AP4 D3 and no minus to hit like thunderhammers, so knights are wiped of armor and wounded on 3s.

Fifth, the lists lack vehicles of any sort meaning lists packing haywire have tons of dead weight.

Sixth, eliminators keep the psykers from applying great pressure.

Seventh, there are several stratagems that help them get to where they're going.

Eighth, successor traits.

Ninth, four wounds is a difficult place to tackle. D6 weapons can leave a lot on the table. D2 is great, but unless its ap4 you're wounding on 3s if they dont transhuman and saving on 5s.

Moirax Gravitons are M14, so they should be able to keep them out of threat range easily barring a smash coming for you. 3 of them at 465 kill an entire unit of cents per turn. All while playing a list that has no long range anti-tank.

I would be gobsmacked if cent spam stayed.

Porcupine,
I really liked your viewpoint on Mimes, but everything else just didn't have any real substance. As I said, add Mimes, maybe a character or two and be done.