Phoenix rising is a crap book.

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

Centurions and the new books create several issues not dealt with previously.

First, they're T5 so something like the disintegrator is suddenly 25% less effective. I have not seen anything in the way of hellblasters or any concentrated plasma for quite a while.

Second, they're 2+, which matters little on terminators it matters a ton here, because it takes so many more shots to reduce their effectiveness. There are few ap4 guns easily deployed meaning Cents have a save twice as good as marines in those scenarios.

Third, there is no way to bury them with bodies. If you can turn off overwatch even 120 swings from boys averages one. If you cant block overwatch? Dont even try.

Fourth, the Cents pack a gak ton of high quality attacks. 25 to a unit of 6 at S10 AP4 D3 and no minus to hit like thunderhammers, so knights are wiped of armor and wounded on 3s.

Fifth, the lists lack vehicles of any sort meaning lists packing haywire have tons of dead weight.

Sixth, eliminators keep the psykers from applying great pressure.

Seventh, there are several stratagems that help them get to where they're going.

Eighth, successor traits.

Ninth, four wounds is a difficult place to tackle. D6 weapons can leave a lot on the table. D2 is great, but unless its ap4 you're wounding on 3s if they dont transhuman and saving on 5s.

Moirax Gravitons are M14, so they should be able to keep them out of threat range easily barring a smash coming for you. 3 of them at 465 kill an entire unit of cents per turn. All while playing a list that has no long range anti-tank.

I would be gobsmacked if cent spam stayed.

They literally just became decent again. Heaven forbid it stay that way huh? Issues never seen before?

Just remember the same weapons that were effective before are still just as effective basically: consistent D2 and/or high AP.

**Amishprn86**

bullyboy wrote:
Porcupine,
I really liked your viewpoint on Mimes, but everything else just didn't have any real substance. As I said, add Mimes, maybe a character or two and be done.

Yeah i play a lot of harlequins, another troop choice like Mimes would be perfect for them (I even play them mono in ITC). Its really just some point costs that are bad right now, like Void/star weavers, troops, and Shadowseer.

Mimes should be 5++, 2A 1 in 5 can have 1 melee weapon and 1 range weapon, 8ppm, with troupes going down a point or 2 and mimes as our chaff filler you could easily play 2 battalions and feel GOOD (not tournament winning, but feel good playing them).

If i could get it my way, i would do Mimes and a Flyer (A small bomber flyer that can hit up to 3 units and makes them all -1 BS, kinda like LoS blocking bombers of the old wars, with 2 Shuriken cannons that can be replaced with either 2 Pris or 2 HWC, give it the turn before and after rule that cwe has)

**Slayer-Fan123**

I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

**Burnage**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

Not quite a one-to-one comparison, but Wracks are only 9 points and are very commonly 4++/6+++. Hell, Wyches are 8 points and get a 4++ once they're in close combat.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Burnage wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

Not quite a one-to-one comparison, but Wracks are only 9 points and are very commonly 4++/6+++. Hell, Wyches are 8 points and get a 4++ once they're in close combat.

Wracks have super little movement without a Venom, but otherwise that's a healthy comparison.

**Amishprn86**

I'm so tired of showing the math, but equal points in Wyches compare to Quins (melee not pistols) wyches are normally always better.

10 models vs 5, 6++/6+++ is better than 5 models with 4++ (on average) for survivability and thats not with the wyches being in combat, as soon as the wyches are in combat they are just more survivable no matter what (10 wounds at 4++ and 6+++), given they have equal points, you get double the wounds, but yes each wych is less str OR less attacks but b.c of traits and drugs they are not both. Wyches equal as much damage as Troupes do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had some fun, made a new harlequin flyer lol.

https://imgur.com/RTmKFuc

**the_scotsman**

Lets see...

Shield Captain
Vexilla
Custode Guard
Allarus
Bikes
Dreadnought
Land Raider

That's 7. Am I missing any?

And if you're saying unique units, I mean...MOST of the marine subdexes...

DW have like...3.

**Galas**

the_scotsman wrote:
Lets see...

Shield Captain
Vexilla
Custode Guard
Allarus
Bikes
Dreadnought
Land Raider

That's 7. Am I missing any?

And if you're saying unique units, I mean...MOST of the marine subdexes...

DW have like...3.

Yeah, the Special Character and the pillar men. I mean, the skirt elites.
But to be honest Custodes arent a fair comparison because half of their army is forgeworld. They just dont work without it, not because they are bad, wich they are, but because they have no options or tactics.
Something similar hapenns with Mechanicus but they have more stuff in gw codex.

**ThePorcupine**

Yes FW stuff counts because it's still usable in matched play. As far as I know harlequins have zero FW units.

**Hellebore**

It's always an unfair comparison when you look at marines vs xenos.

GW Invents units willy nilly when it comes to justifying separate marine books.

If Harlequins were given the same effort and time As a marine faction you bet they'd have a huge variety of units.

The perspective is Ass about - their codex's lack of units isnt a justification for them not being a separate army, it's an indictment of GW under resourcing non marine development.

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

GW turned a 1 model unit into an army because they decided to expend the effort.

Harlequins don't even have all the infantry units they've historically possessed (mimes and great Harlequins).

Go back to 3rd ed 40k and almost all the 'unique' blood angels units that exist now were generic - sanguinary guard were bodyguard squads.

Armies in 40k are as unique as GW wants them to be, their current status is entirely about GWs commitment rather than any intrinsic quality

**Daedalus81**

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

**wuestenfux**

bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

Mimes and Wraithlords, both in the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe, would have been a good add-on to get more variety into the army.
One unit, the Voidreaver, is basically not used at all.

**Galas**

Hellebore wrote:

Armies in 40k are as unique as GW wants them to be, their current status is entirely about GWs commitment rather than any intrinsic quality

At the end of the day this is the only objetive truth, and we can see it in AoS with whole armies made out of one model concept

Back in the day Necrons were also 4 units. All this people that tries to justify their desire for the toys of other kids to be taken away with the justification of a fluff that literally only exist to justify the perpetuity of the conflict every simgle faction takes part in comes, at best, as hipocrites for selecting the pieces of fluff or rules support history that support their view and ignore the rest. And at worst, as very petty people to wich their subjetive view of how the game should be organized comes at the expense of peoples time, money and miniatures wich existence doesnt affect them more than a small tree in their neighbourd backyard. .

And as a Tau, Dark Angel, and Adeptus Custodes player, Im just sick of those people.

**An Actual Englishman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

**Marin**

The Deer Hunter wrote:
After all, all the people who complaint want the same thing, more cheese for their army.

This is so sad.

Yea, it`s sad that we want units to do 10% of that they can in the lore. So unfair.

**Apple fox**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

Sadly when reading stuff it feels that way, even when Xenos get something its half the effort of other things :(

**Tyel**

Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

**Karol**

Considering the whole primaris thing, I think the argument of GW not being able to add stuff to the model line, because of lore is not defendable.

What is stoping GW from , lets say, puting a mime option in the harlequin rules, and use the regular harlequins box to represent them?

**BrianDavion**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

except we have gotten new xenos armies of late, GSCs and Harli's are, effectively, very new armies. that said, what we can detirmine is that GW tends to prefer low hanging fruit with a built in fanbase that have a long history as part of the setting, (often ones that had models once upon a time) I can't think of any obvious new Xenos stuff, save maybe eldar exodites. at the same time I really can't imagine anything new for the IoM eaither.
I suspect we're not likely to see new factions for awhile. PA strikes me as evidance of GW "consolidating their position" taking stock giving new stuff to some older factions that need it. etc

**Marin**

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

It`s reasonable to expect aeldar to make temporal alliances to beat the opponents.
But i really think GW want Harlequins to be good army and will do something about that.
I really want them to make that gate useful, it really have possibility to make the army more interesting and it can help alot.

**Apple fox**

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

**Marin**

Apple fox wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

Letting them mix together will create balance issues, led`s not forget what Ynnari did to dark reapers and spears.

**Apple fox**

Marin wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

Letting them mix together will create balance issues, led`s not forget what Ynnari did to dark reapers and spears.

This is why you put those units in the book, balanced around that book and what is in that book and how they work. Ynnari is mostly another GW not very good at this situation. Its a continuing issue of no one really knows what direction 40k is going. And seems like the rules people have to tie it all in together and get it to work.

**Karol**

I wonder if GW design just went ham with Inari rules, when they initialy wrote them. No testing for options, souping etc. Just wrote down what they thought would be cold. And then went suprised pikatchu, when dark reapers were doing milion extra turns.

IH rules seemed to have been like that too. I don't know what they tested them with, but it looks like they checked them with reavers or something like that.

**Marin**

Karol wrote:
I wonder if GW design just went ham with Inari rules, when they initialy wrote them. No testing for options, souping etc. Just wrote down what they thought would be cold. And then went suprised pikatchu, when dark reapers were doing milion extra turns.

IH rules seemed to have been like that too. I don't know what they tested them with, but it looks like they checked them with reavers or something like that.

As far as i know Ynnari rules were ported from 7, where the designers made them to be closer to the lore.
Ynnari become problem with stacking of rules and point decreases on some units, something what we see in much bigger scale in SM releases.
That is the reason i mostly like PA, because it give extra rules, without anything that is broken or obviously better than the codex.
What i don`t like is that most of the worst aspects did not become much better and viable, but maybe they will do something in CA(i doubt it).

**Daedalus81**

BrianDavion wrote:

except we have gotten new xenos armies of late, GSCs and Harli's are, effectively, very new armies. that said, what we can detirmine is that GW tends to prefer low hanging fruit with a built in fanbase that have a long history as part of the setting, (often ones that had models once upon a time) I can't think of any obvious new Xenos stuff, save maybe eldar exodites. at the same time I really can't imagine anything new for the IoM eaither.
I suspect we're not likely to see new factions for awhile. PA strikes me as evidance of GW "consolidating their position" taking stock giving new stuff to some older factions that need it. etc

That's the problem with xenos scum. If it's not their xenos scum then its ignored, like xenos scum.

**the_scotsman**

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

Also....are they not in the fluff?

Special Characters:

Iyanna Arienal. Special Shadowseer named character. Appears in a bunch of lore.

Motley. Special Troupe Master named character. Appears in Path of the Eldar.

Master Mime. In original 2nd ed codex.

Mimes. In original 2nd ed codex.

Webway Guardians. Literally every description of the perils of the black library references terrible automata guardians. Similar to how the Harlequins used to have access to Vypers in 2nd edition and now that has been replaced with the Voidweaver, they also used to have access to the Eldar Dreadnought, and conversions of Wraithlords with the harlequin bike face plate were extremely common. Make them a Killa Kan/Penitent Engine style light walker unit that can infiltrate, give it a wraithbone marionette aesthetic, with a Puppetmaster character who acts as a squad leader and tie several of the unit's special abilities to him staying alive.

**Mr Morden**

There is a vast amount of wonderful of unseen units and characters for all non-Marine factions

There are a very few Marine units not in the game and they are in Chapters that are constantly ignored because of the Wolves and Angels always "need" to have new stuff.

Of course what happens is GW ignores all the other factions and makes more Marines - always.

**Karol**

But do they get new stuff? SW got a primaris Lt as their 8th model. DA too. GK got voldus, BA got an Lt and a termintor captin maybe?

That is hardly back breaking number of models to design. Comparing to that GSC got a whole new line. eldar got a unit and banshee queen, dark eldar got the incubi king and incubi.

Technicly besides totaly new armies like SoB or GSC, no one is getting a lot of new models.

am not even sure if GW didn't produce more models for AoS in the last 2 years. Heck they produced like 30+ models for mini games, few people play. How much time was spend on making models for that whole blackstone game, and how many people play it comparing to a normal w40k faction?

If they took the chaos stuff out of it, and made a renegade army out of it, the sells would be much better.

**PenitentJake**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

So look, here's the evidence you say doesn't exist: GW just released an Elder vs Eldar box with a pure Eldar supplement after resculpting four eldar units in plastic. Also, December's PA is nids- sure there will be some marine content, but there will be Xenos content too.

How many space marines are there in Blackstone Fortress again? Oh yeah, none. The army that's being released this month... Sure, not Xenos, but not Space Marine either, right?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Xenos aren't under-supported- they are... So far. But it is absolutely ridiculous of you to claim that GW has no interest in releasing anything but space marines the month after a major eldar release and the month before new content for Nids.

Back to Harlequins- remember the jetbikes with the sculpted mask canopies? I remember walkers too, but I don't remember if they were actual models or kitbashes of Wrathlords and sculpted bike canopies. Either way, they looked AMAZING and I wish we would get them back.

Also, please remember that codices are more than units. Sure, Quins only have 8 units, but having a dex is what gives them Masque forms, WL Traits, Strats, and Relics. They either wouldn't have any, or at least they would have fewer if they got rolled into someone else's dex.