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Not the tech priest manipulus. That was made just for that kill team release.
And harlequins got nothing in kill team because they have few units?... See previous point. DESIGN A NEW UNIT. IT'S HONEST TO GOD NOT HARD. They do it for other armies every other day!
And I would seriously like to see the data on what chunk of the player base plays sisters. I'm willing to bet it's miniscule.
Ugh, I've seen this rubbish argument before, it's dumb and does not translate in anyway to the sales of toy soldiers. For a start you realise that Barq's root beer doesn't exist outside of the US (well certainly not in the UK anyway).
You have not made a convincing argument.
I love Barqs. I don't care about the UK. Why isn't Coca Cola making Cherry Barqs in the US? I like Cherry. I bet it would sell well. They make Cherry Coke. Clearly they have the means.
ThePorcupine wrote: And I would seriously like to see the data on what chunk of the player base plays sisters. I'm willing to bet it's miniscule.
I agree with all of your post but this is particularly pertinent. I agree with your bet and I'll go one further - I'd put money that the number of Sisters players, now that they're getting a brand new line of models ala a Marine release, is going to skyrocket.
It's almost as if supporting a line with new, modern, plastic models encourages purchases of said line or something?!
Ugh, I've seen this rubbish argument before, it's dumb and does not translate in anyway to the sales of toy soldiers. For a start you realise that Barq's root beer doesn't exist outside of the US (well certainly not in the UK anyway).
You have not made a convincing argument.
I love Barqs. I don't care about the UK. Why isn't Coca Cola making Cherry Barqs in the US? I like Cherry. I bet it would sell well. They make Cherry Coke. Clearly they have the means.
The original argument isn't convincing. It does not translate. We are discussing two entirely different markets, two hugely different consumer types and two vastly different products.
What you're doing here is confusing a brand and a product. Coke is a much stronger brand than Barqs and is likely the primary reason you don't see cherry Barqs. In addition there is likely a competitor's product that has a much stronger presence within the "Cherry Softdrinks" market space. Space Marines models are not a brand, they are a product. Games Workshop and 40k are the brand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/08 21:42:18
Not the tech priest manipulus. That was made just for that kill team release.
And harlequins got nothing in kill team because they have few units?... See previous point. DESIGN A NEW UNIT. IT'S HONEST TO GOD NOT HARD. They do it for other armies every other day!
And I would seriously like to see the data on what chunk of the player base plays sisters. I'm willing to bet it's miniscule.
yeah thats what GW said for 20 years - and then they actually asked if anyone wanted them - and now they are making them.
Harlequins had more units in older dexes - like the one that was before the Marine ones....
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
1° Space marines are not the inspiration of Spartans or STarcraft marines. All space supersoldiers, just like all space bugs come from Starship Troopers. The book.
2° By GW own admision, Space Marines were made following the idea of Chaos Warriors from fantasy : Heavy supersoldiers. Because back in the day Chaos Warriors were the most popular thing of Fantasy. So SM allready come as a version of the most popular concept of fantasy. And you can see how in RT and 2° even if Marines featured on the cover, the support was more equally distributed. You could see how in Fantasy, Chaos Warriors declined in popularity in favour of High Elves and other factions. But that didnt happened in 40k. Thats why Fantasy saw a much varied universe, and 40k is so marine centric. The irony is that even fantasy became infected with the maribe disease in the form of stormcast., coming full circle.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
AnomanderRake wrote: Chicken/egg. Does GW release more Space Marines because more people play Space Marines, or do more people play Space Marines because they get more support than other armies?
keep in mind that, and I'm not talking the minis and army rules right now, space marines and chaos marines are proably the most developed factions. the amount of fluff and lore out there for them dwarves anyone else.If you want a novel about say... AdMech you have a pretty thin selection, Imperial Guard likewise (by comparison, I know there are a lot of guard books) Marines, well there's 60 or so books currently in Horus heresy alone.
So people whose intreast in 40k is the setting are more likely drawn to space marines. especially as space Marines are one of the more unique aspects of 40k.
Marines are unique? Are you cereal?
Super soldiers in big armour with big weapons? Literally in every bloody syfy setting ever? Halo Spartans, Starcraft marines all get confused with our Spess Muhreens.
Show me any other syfy setting with an Ork equivalent. I dare yas.
HALO Spartans and starcraft marines came after the fact, and where inspired by 40k space marines. as for orks in 40k, they;'re just orks with a dash of mad max.
It doesn't matter if they came after the fact. People, that is to say the general public, can't tell the difference between Spartans, SC Marines and 40k Marines. They are generic as generic can be.
"Just Orks with a dash of mad max"? Lol you're not gonna get a bite that easy and you didn't answer the question. Give me a syfy setting with an equivalent race to Orks. I've given you 2 SM equivalents, there are many others.
yet again, it's hardly GW's fault if their inconic posterboy race is copied by everyone else, that implies it has a large public appeal and actually reinforces the idea. 40k is 30 years old, if there are no other sci-fi settings out there with Orks in it (BTW off the top of my head, starfinder and spelljammer. "ohh but they're just fantasy thrown in space" you claim? well.... yeah the name ork is so widely associated with fantasy you're not going to see it outside fantasy) thats because it lacks the widespread appeal.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Galas wrote: 1° Space marines are not the inspiration of Spartans or STarcraft marines. All space supersoldiers, just like all space bugs come from Starship Troopers. The book.
2° By GW own admision, Space Marines were made following the idea of Chaos Warriors from fantasy : Heavy supersoldiers. Because back in the day Chaos Warriors were the most popular thing of Fantasy. So SM allready come as a version of the most popular concept of fantasy. And you can see how in RT and 2° even if Marines featured on the cover, the support was more equally distributed. You could see how in Fantasy, Chaos Warriors declined in popularity in favour of High Elves and other factions. But that didnt happened in 40k. Thats why Fantasy saw a much varied universe, and 40k is so marine centric. The irony is that even fantasy became infected with the maribe disease in the form of stormcast., coming full circle.
Chaos Warriors are my jam. All these War Cry models that bear very little armor? Meh. The new Chaos Warriors fully decked out in armor? Daaaaamn.
Like nothing has captured how brutally awesome Chaos Warriors are than this:
BrianDavion wrote: yet again, it's hardly GW's fault if their inconic posterboy race is copied by everyone else, that implies it has a large public appeal and actually reinforces the idea. 40k is 30 years old, if there are no other sci-fi settings out there with Orks in it (BTW off the top of my head, starfinder and spelljammer. "ohh but they're just fantasy thrown in space" you claim? well.... yeah the name ork is so widely associated with fantasy you're not going to see it outside fantasy) thats because it lacks the widespread appeal.
Ooooof this is a dumb argument for so many reasons.
"Space Marines" of different sorts feature in so many syfy settings because they are literally the most generic hero character in any given syfy setting. They are as boring as boring can be. As has been said above, GW didn't invent them either, but that's by the by.
Orks don't feature in as many settings because they are actually pretty damn unique of the 40k factions.
And as to why you're argument is stupid? There are plenty of "Eldar"-ish equivalents in syfy settings yet according to GW releases they're nowhere near as popular as marines. "Tyranid" bug equivalents are probably the most regular antagonist of all syfy settings, but if GW are to be believed they aren't popular at all..... see why your basic argument falls in on itself so quickly? You see that there might be other forces at play here as to the popularity of a faction in 40k?
Galas wrote: 1° Space marines are not the inspiration of Spartans or STarcraft marines. All space supersoldiers, just like all space bugs come from Starship Troopers. The book.
2° By GW own admision, Space Marines were made following the idea of Chaos Warriors from fantasy : Heavy supersoldiers. Because back in the day Chaos Warriors were the most popular thing of Fantasy. So SM allready come as a version of the most popular concept of fantasy. And you can see how in RT and 2° even if Marines featured on the cover, the support was more equally distributed. You could see how in Fantasy, Chaos Warriors declined in popularity in favour of High Elves and other factions. But that didnt happened in 40k. Thats why Fantasy saw a much varied universe, and 40k is so marine centric. The irony is that even fantasy became infected with the maribe disease in the form of stormcast., coming full circle.
Chaos Warriors are my jam. All these War Cry models that bear very little armor? Meh. The new Chaos Warriors fully decked out in armor? Daaaaamn.
Like nothing has captured how brutally awesome Chaos Warriors are than this:
It also entices me back into AoS.
I can only agree. That cinematic totally sold me the grim advancing, silent killing machines of 6th chaos warriors. No screaming, no babbling. Pure and imposing baddassery.
Is funny how everyone in that cinematic is a baddass, even the ones that lose and die. If only gw authors could write like that.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Galas wrote: 1° Space marines are not the inspiration of Spartans or STarcraft marines. All space supersoldiers, just like all space bugs come from Starship Troopers. The book.
no starship troopers conceptualized POWER armor, space marines are individuals taken as children and subjected to horrific genetic enhancements with a lowish survival rate. however those whom survive are turned into super soldiers, said super soldiers are then given advanced power armor and weapons. which yeah... is almost exactly like HALO Spartans. to the point where I doubt very much it's a coincidance.
As for star craft, it's pretty widely known star craft was umm.. borrowing from 40k. which is a polite way to say Blizzard's not terriably original with it's lore and mostly just cribs other peoples ideas.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The idea has never been that Space Marines sell JUST because they get all the rules support.
I'll just quote myself (but I'll make it easier for you);
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the point JNA was trying to make, obviously, is that Marines sell because;
1.Marines get all the support and
2.all the resource and
3.all the new kits and
4.feature in all the starter sets and
5.have the best rules now and
6.have the most cross-compatible models and
7.have always been pushed by GW 8.etc
9.etc
10.etc
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
So, in other words, the statement that Marines sell because they get great rules support all the time isn't actually true?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The idea has never been that Space Marines sell JUST because they get all the rules support.
I'll just quote myself (but I'll make it easier for you);
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the point JNA was trying to make, obviously, is that Marines sell because;
1.Marines get all the support and
2.all the resource and
3.all the new kits and
4.feature in all the starter sets and
5.have the best rules now and
6.have the most cross-compatible models and
7.have always been pushed by GW 8.etc
9.etc
10.etc
I think you left ouf:
X: Marines are really, really popular regardless of whether 1-10 hold true or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/08 22:12:36
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
So, in other words, the statement that Marines sell because they get great rules support all the time isn't actually true?
Well they had the most consistent rule support (not best) and the most consistent release schedule to the point of ridicoulusness in 8th.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Galas wrote: 1° Space marines are not the inspiration of Spartans or STarcraft marines. All space supersoldiers, just like all space bugs come from Starship Troopers. The book.
no starship troopers conceptualized POWER armor, space marines are individuals taken as children and subjected to horrific genetic enhancements with a lowish survival rate. however those whom survive are turned into super soldiers, said super soldiers are then given advanced power armor and weapons. which yeah... is almost exactly like HALO Spartans. to the point where I doubt very much it's a coincidance.
As for star craft, it's pretty widely known star craft was umm.. borrowing from 40k. which is a polite way to say Blizzard's not terriably original with it's lore and mostly just cribs other peoples ideas.
Sooooo Starship Troopers conceptualised Space Super Soldiers and Spess Muhreens are Space Super Soldiers? Got it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
So, in other words, the statement that Marines sell because they get great rules support all the time isn't actually true?
Well they had the most consistent rule support (not best) and the most consistent release schedule to the point of ridicoulusness in 8th.
Which doesn't explain why they sold like hot-cakes before that happened, unless people can suddenly see into the future.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The idea has never been that Space Marines sell JUST because they get all the rules support.
I'll just quote myself (but I'll make it easier for you);
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think the point JNA was trying to make, obviously, is that Marines sell because;
1.Marines get all the support and
2.all the resource and
3.all the new kits and
4.feature in all the starter sets and
5.have the best rules now and
6.have the most cross-compatible models and
7.have always been pushed by GW 8.etc
9.etc
10.etc
I think you left ouf:
X: Marines are really, really popular because 1-10 hold true.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
So, in other words, the statement that Marines sell because they get great rules support all the time isn't actually true?
Well they had the most consistent rule support (not best) and the most consistent release schedule to the point of ridicoulusness in 8th.
Which doesn't explain why they sold like hot-cakes before that happened, unless people can suddenly see into the future.
Read all the responses - marines get EVERYTHING Advertsing, started boxes, constant articels on Warhammer Community, models, lore, rules, you name - its lavished on them.
Then wierdly they sell the most...
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
err they don't get constant articles. they get articles when they get a release. go over to warhammer community.com right now and you'll not see a single referance to marines... well beyond a referance to a horus heresy audio bundle.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
You're literally responding with "No, you're wrong and I'm going to tell the mods because you've broken the rules."
You're honestly claiming, in good faith, that the combination of my points 1-7 have absolutely no impact on the popularity of marines? How?
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility. As long as that is the case the "discussion" is indeed over.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility. As long as that is the case the "discussion" is indeed over.
And because they sell well, you get a game with crap balance. Why can't everyone just be happy with that?
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility. As long as that is the case the "discussion" is indeed over.
And because they sell well, you get a game with crap balance. Why can't everyone just be happy with that?
Because you haven't proved that this is the case? It could very well be, but correlation does not imply causation.
This entire discussion is, from my point of view, a bunch of people treating a scenario that could well be true as objectively true just because it is possible that it is. It may well be that Marines getting so much focus is the reason for why they are so popular. A lot of people just take this for granted and refuse to even contemplate the idea that this may not be the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/08 22:25:40
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.
When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.
BrianDavion wrote: [I don't see any mention of the mods dude. And if the mods are sending you warnings for your behavior...well, thats on you not on him
I've had no mod warnings, calm yourself britches. Looks like he edited his post, apparently FTFY are rule violations?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Because you haven't proved that this is the case? It could very well be, but correlation does not imply causation.
Why bother against this tide of SM fanboys? SM could take the top 50 spots at the next 50 tournaments you'd still be here defending them to your dying breath. Why participate in a debate with an utterly disingenuous opponent?
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.
When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.
Cool, then we're on the same page. I may be getting you mixed up with other people, but there's a consistent trend of people ignoring the fact that we have no way of knowing what the baseline popularity of Marines would be without the other listed factors.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're conflating "generic" with "boring". Things are generic because they work.
Regarding the idea that Space Marines sell because they get all the rules support, why did Primaris Marines sell like hotcakes even at the start of the edition when they were bad-to-almost-kinda-playable?
The models that were massively pushed like all Marines - constantly and consistantly with little or no let up?
Continues development during the years, new models, new books.
Easily accessible with Dark Imperium set, most of the sets have primaris in it.
Build easy models and free models in WD, even local shops need to keep a large amount of SM models.
Other faction have 1-2 boxes, SM have 5-6.
If 1 more year GW did not give SM good rules, their popularity was going to tank.
For instance couple of people sold their SM armies because they were unhappy with the performance.
Also don`t forget they are recieving models non-stop, so players expected them to have decent rules sooner or latter.
The continuous support of the lane is big magnet. But vanila marines are tanking, blood angels, wolfs and dark angels armies were sold.
