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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.

When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.

Cool, then we're on the same page. I may be getting you mixed up with other people, but there's a consistent trend of people ignoring the fact that we have no way of knowing what the baseline popularity of Marines would be without the other listed factors.

In some ways it's irrelevant though right?

GW can steer the popularity of a faction. They are able to influence their own sales. Look at Sisters. Do this for Xenos factions. Make others happy and make them want to part with their hard-earned.

We know Marines are the most popular faction as of now in 40k and they are likely the most profitable. The issue is GW are killing their own community with their obsessive focus on marines and this isn't healthy. Nor are the staunch defenders piling in when anyone dares express their displeasure at this fact.

The problem is undoubtedly cyclic. There have been claims that in the olden days, GW made more from the Tactical Marine Box than they did from whole Xenos factions.

Which isn't really surprising, because almost everyone starts out the hobby with a tactical marine box. I don't know if they push intercessors as much now - it seems a bit too fiddly - but I wouldn't be surprised. Certainly with the easy build models.

But yeah, "woops, we last released something for this faction five years ago, eh, no one's buying them anyway, lets wait another 5" is a vicious cycle.

I mean Sisters is going to be a good case. For years the cry went up "no one wants Sisters, its just a meme". Well, unsurprisingly people didn't want metal models dating from 1998 (or whenever). Its a commitment too far.

But if they fly off the shelves now - its unclear to me why they wouldn't have done so years ago. GW just needed to actually release a product.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.

When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.

Cool, then we're on the same page. I may be getting you mixed up with other people, but there's a consistent trend of people ignoring the fact that we have no way of knowing what the baseline popularity of Marines would be without the other listed factors.

In some ways it's irrelevant though right?

GW can steer the popularity of a faction. They are able to influence their own sales. Look at Sisters. Do this for Xenos factions. Make others happy and make them want to part with their hard-earned.

We know Marines are the most popular faction as of now in 40k and they are likely the most profitable. The issue is GW are killing their own community with their obsessive focus on marines and this isn't healthy. Nor are the staunch defenders piling in when anyone dares express their displeasure at this fact.

Keep in mind that, while Sisters models were asked for, that doesn't mean they will sell fantastically.

When push comes to shove, how many of the people clamoring for plastic Sisters will legit drop a butt load of money on them?

I think the starter box will sell like hot cakes. Tidy box, nice price point, lots will be bought for novelty value, even by people who have never seen a sister of battle in the metal before. After that, I can see them being as popular as GSC or custodes.

I bet they push them competitive wise to make them sell well.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility. As long as that is the case the "discussion" is indeed over.

And because they sell well, you get a game with crap balance. Why can't everyone just be happy with that?

except the idea that Marines are always OP etc is utterly FALSE. until their new codex Marines where not generally considered top tier. It's fine to complain about codex creep, because it absolutely is annoying, but let's not conflate seperate issues.because people are doing that. I've seen people imply that Marines are OP because "ohh they get frequent releases" this is.. mostly false. GW is... hit and miss with their unit rules. for every unit introduced as brokeningly OP, there's one or two that are so mediocre they're simply not useful. (we tend to just not register them because they're swiftly forgotten) balance and releases is not at all connected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.

When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.

Cool, then we're on the same page. I may be getting you mixed up with other people, but there's a consistent trend of people ignoring the fact that we have no way of knowing what the baseline popularity of Marines would be without the other listed factors.

In some ways it's irrelevant though right?

GW can steer the popularity of a faction. They are able to influence their own sales. Look at Sisters. Do this for Xenos factions. Make others happy and make them want to part with their hard-earned.

We know Marines are the most popular faction as of now in 40k and they are likely the most profitable. The issue is GW are killing their own community with their obsessive focus on marines and this isn't healthy. Nor are the staunch defenders piling in when anyone dares express their displeasure at this fact.

Keep in mind that, while Sisters models were asked for, that doesn't mean they will sell fantastically.

When push comes to shove, how many of the people clamoring for plastic Sisters will legit drop a butt load of money on them?

I plan on getting some but I might skip the box dependant on it's costs and my income level.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not. I'm claiming that there is a possibility that even if we removed your points Marines would still sell well, and you're consistently refusing to accept that this is a possibility.

When did I do this? I don't disagree with this at all.

Cool, then we're on the same page. I may be getting you mixed up with other people, but there's a consistent trend of people ignoring the fact that we have no way of knowing what the baseline popularity of Marines would be without the other listed factors.

In some ways it's irrelevant though right?

GW can steer the popularity of a faction. They are able to influence their own sales. Look at Sisters. Do this for Xenos factions. Make others happy and make them want to part with their hard-earned.

We know Marines are the most popular faction as of now in 40k and they are likely the most profitable. The issue is GW are killing their own community with their obsessive focus on marines and this isn't healthy. Nor are the staunch defenders piling in when anyone dares express their displeasure at this fact.

Keep in mind that, while Sisters models were asked for, that doesn't mean they will sell fantastically.

When push comes to shove, how many of the people clamoring for plastic Sisters will legit drop a butt load of money on them?

I probably won't get the box, but I'll probably get at least a battalion's worth to tack onto a soup army.

I frequent Sisters specific threads in other forums that have them. Many folks are unhappy about the box- it's looking 50/50 on who's gonna buy and who's gonna pass.

Personally, I think it's a lot of knee jerk rage posting for many of them; we've been waiting. So. Long.

My worry is that GW will draw conclusions about player preference by the way we respond to their marketing problems. Take our OP Phoenix Rising; If they had released the box of Banshees, the box of Incubi, Jain Zar, and Drazhar all as separates, and folded the lean campaign book in the box into the lean PA book, this release would have been a huge success. Instead, it's been 14 pages of rage posting.

I just hope they don't assume no one likes Eldar because no ones buying Phoenix Rising.

And they are repeating the pattern with Sisters. You won't be able to buy the codex unless you buy the box, and you can't buy the box without paying for the dex, making it suck if you were planning to buy 2 boxes.

The good news is this:

The sisters line has been in development for so long that even if this box tanks, they don't really have the capacity to modify the schedule of the full release.

And the full release will be very hard for them to keep in stock; it's a license to print money. I know people who are literally planning to drop thousand on pre-release day.

That should be all the sales data GW needs to realize that it's the big box only concept that is preventing these models from selling and not the fact that the players don't like the models or the armies.

If I was made of money, I'd have bought 2 copies of Phoenix Rising just because it would make GW see there is a market. I kick myself in the ass almost daily for not buying 3-5 copies of Gangs of Commorragh. If that had been as successful as the release of Verydian or Celestine [which sold out in the first week if I remember correctly], DE may have ended up with a Baron Sathonyx model. Heck, that box was even really good value model wise.

The problem with both Gangs and Blood is that they were good value... if you wanted all of the models in the box. Hellions are so actively bad that their inclusion in both boxes was a significant drawback - why pay money for something you're almost never going to use, even if it's at a discount?

They're one of the units that seemed an obvious candidate for changes in Phoenix Rising, but c'est la vie. Maybe Chapter Approved.

I don't have any experience playing DE yet, but I want Hellions because I want to grow my army from a small Wych Cult. I've created a couple special scenarios relating to the wych cult's acquisition of hellions, the acsension of one Hellion to the role of Beast Master and an adventure style mission where the Beastmaster and his escort seek and dominate an Ambull and bring it back to the arena. HUGE rep for the cult. Helps them ally with Kabals and Covens for realspace raids- competition is fierce for the right to raid.

This is why balance and competitveness are NEVER issues for me. Playing BSF/ KT/ 40k is like using minis in a role playing game.

On a side note, if you play Blackstone, this month's WD gives you rules for using a Solitaire in BSF. I think it's just a retinue character, but it's inclusion at least.

BrianDavion wrote:
except the idea that Marines are always OP etc is utterly FALSE. until their new codex Marines where not generally considered top tier. It's fine to complain about codex creep, because it absolutely is annoying, but let's not conflate seperate issues.because people are doing that. I've seen people imply that Marines are OP because "ohh they get frequent releases" this is.. mostly false. GW is... hit and miss with their unit rules. for every unit introduced as brokeningly OP, there's one or two that are so mediocre they're simply not useful. (we tend to just not register them because they're swiftly forgotten) balance and releases is not at all connected.

Disconnecting GWs wild over-correction in the SM codex from their status as the favored faction in the game is disingenuous. We all know they are hopelessly tied together, pretending they're not is insulting. But please, continue equivocating about it.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except the idea that Marines are always OP etc is utterly FALSE. until their new codex Marines where not generally considered top tier. It's fine to complain about codex creep, because it absolutely is annoying, but let's not conflate seperate issues.because people are doing that. I've seen people imply that Marines are OP because "ohh they get frequent releases" this is.. mostly false. GW is... hit and miss with their unit rules. for every unit introduced as brokeningly OP, there's one or two that are so mediocre they're simply not useful. (we tend to just not register them because they're swiftly forgotten) balance and releases is not at all connected.

Disconnecting GWs wild over-correction in the SM codex from their status as the favored faction in the game is disingenuous. We all know they are hopelessly tied together, pretending they're not is insulting. But please, continue equivocating about it.

Why did it take over two years?
What were Ynnari and Castellans doing at top tables? Are they favorites, too? And the soup that powered them? I seem to recall IS were 'incredibly strong' being 4 points.

The fact is, GW knows damn well that Space Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW knows damn well that Space Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

True. Not sure why. Marines as heros? GW particularly promotes those blue tin cans. Never understood why SM must be blue colored on all those pics.

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

PenitentJake wrote:

My worry is that GW will draw conclusions about player preference by the way we respond to their marketing problems. Take our OP Phoenix Rising; If they had released the box of Banshees, the box of Incubi, Jain Zar, and Drazhar all as separates, and folded the lean campaign book in the box into the lean PA book, this release would have been a huge success. Instead, it's been 14 pages of rage posting.

I just hope they don't assume no one likes Eldar because no ones buying Phoenix Rising.

It's lose/lose.

Either no one buys it, and GW concludes that no one is interested in the Eldar factions, or else it sells well and GW concludes that Eldar players will buy literally anything, no matter how lazy, anaemic and generally awful it is.

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW knows damn well that Space Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

okey, but isn't it because people stay with marines longer, knowing that even if the army is bad, GW will sooner then later update it to be good again, because of how many people play them. For a marine players bad rules can be just a few months or a year. While lets say an orc player can get editions worth of bad books.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

He said that Marine sales are high even without the added factor of having strong rules, NOT that strong rules have no effect on sales at all. Did you read what he wrote and understood it before spilling out a rubbish reply?

Marine sales are high for several reasons and you give some very good examples yourself. Having strong rules helps, but being mediocre does not decrease those sales too much. Without data, this is something I would believe without a doubt. "Everybody" seem to have Marine models of some sort.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

He said that Marine sales are high even without the added factor of having strong rules, NOT that strong rules have no effect on sales at all. Did you read what he wrote and understood it before spilling out a rubbish reply?

Marine sales are high for several reasons and you give some very good examples yourself. Having strong rules helps, but being mediocre does not decrease those sales too much. Without data, this is something I would believe without a doubt. "Everybody" seem to have Marine models of some sort.

I think Marines also have a large number of fans whose man passion is the lore and stories more then anything. I've not data for this but it'd explain why if you go on the background and lore fourm 90% of the discussions are marine related.

BrianDavion wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

He said that Marine sales are high even without the added factor of having strong rules, NOT that strong rules have no effect on sales at all. Did you read what he wrote and understood it before spilling out a rubbish reply?

Marine sales are high for several reasons and you give some very good examples yourself. Having strong rules helps, but being mediocre does not decrease those sales too much. Without data, this is something I would believe without a doubt. "Everybody" seem to have Marine models of some sort.

I think Marines also have a large number of fans whose man passion is the lore and stories more then anything. I've not data for this but it'd explain why if you go on the background and lore fourm 90% of the discussions are marine related.

It's really easy to be a lore fan when the lore is written in such minutiae - I'd love to discuss the current recruitment rate of the shrine of the poisoned sting, their heroes and their force disposition, but I barely get that for an entire craftworld let alone the shrines of warriors (of similar size to a chapter) found within.


I've known the ultramarine force organisation since 1995 when I got their first codex. It's only been added to since then. The current Eldar codex is mostly a hackjob of the 2nd Ed book, with the bolt on new units they've made since then.

My space Wolves (representing an army of only a few thousand) are more canonically described than my Eldar (representing however many million/billion Eldar exist an entire faction), and both armies are 23 years old... Actually now I think about it, my salamanders only became an army when they released codex Armageddon in 3rd Ed and they've gone from existing as a name and paint scheme to having more information (codexes, FW and novels) about them than pretty much all xenos armies...

The same problem with miniatures and rules applies to lore as well.

It's so thin anything interesting inevitably ends up as speculation or fanfic..

a_typical_hero wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

He said that Marine sales are high even without the added factor of having strong rules, NOT that strong rules have no effect on sales at all. Did you read what he wrote and understood it before spilling out a rubbish reply?

Marine sales are high for several reasons and you give some very good examples yourself. Having strong rules helps, but being mediocre does not decrease those sales too much. Without data, this is something I would believe without a doubt. "Everybody" seem to have Marine models of some sort.

Source for those marine sales figures that are 'high' while they had poor rules please? Stats of marine sales maintaining while their rules were poor also please? You don't have any? You're making stats up to suit a bizarre narrative?!

I don't have a single marine model. Your beliefs are not fact.

 Burnage wrote:
The problem with both Gangs and Blood is that they were good value... if you wanted all of the models in the box. Hellions are so actively bad that their inclusion in both boxes was a significant drawback - why pay money for something you're almost never going to use, even if it's at a discount?

They're one of the units that seemed an obvious candidate for changes in Phoenix Rising, but c'est la vie. Maybe Chapter Approved.

but least in Gangs they were bits sprues for free as the box was £35(?) and Reavers where £20(?), using them to further pad out the new hotness tax in Blood was a tad low, but I guess they couldn't put Wyches in as they'd show up the Banshees for the averageness plus Exarch they still are

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Source for those marine sales figures that are 'high' while they had poor rules please? Stats of marine sales maintaining while their rules were poor also please? You don't have any? You're making stats up to suit a bizarre narrative?!

I don't have a single marine model. Your beliefs are not fact.

Sales figures for single factions don't exist to my knowledge, but according to the survey on Dakka some time back more than every third member does have Marines sitting at home.
"The Outer Circle" gathered some data back in 2017 about faction representation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wZ99-EVHiM and Marines take the top spot.
While not relevant for 40k sales, Marines are in such high demand that Forgeworld has done "nothing else" for the last 10 years. Please note the words in "" to indicate that I don't really mean "nothing else", just like "everybody" in my previous post.

You said yourself that Marines sell in your previous post, so what are you attacking me now? Do you want to provide your stats for how well/bad Reivers sell and the scientific, peer reviewed essay on why this is connected to their rules? Had a bad day, mate?

If believing that Marines are the best selling faction is a "bizarre narrative", I'm eager to hear from you which faction you think is the best selling and for what reasons.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Your beliefs are not fact.

Yes,...that's why I said "I believe it" instead of "This is a fact"

Today, I ordered two Ynnari books from Gav Thorpe.
I hope this gives me some motivation to play Ynnari for a while,
or at least - and more probable - play the Ynnari HQs in one of my armies (Harlies, Kabal or Biel-Tan).

When you first make a strawman out of someone's post so you can make an indignant reply and then proceed to interpret "everybody" in quotation marks as meaning "literally everybody" instead of taking one second to recognize that there's a reason those quotation marks were there I'd say you should take a break, sit back and think about just what you're doing.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When you first make a strawman out of someone's post so you can make an indignant reply and then proceed to interpret "everybody" in quotation marks as meaning "literally everybody" instead of taking one second to recognize that there's a reason those quotation marks were there I'd say you should take a break, sit back and think about just what you're doing.

The strawman here is hero, who seemed to confuse me questioning his literal statement of:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Having strong rules helps, but being mediocre does not decrease those sales too much.

As me saying this:

a_typical_hero wrote:

If believing that Marines are the best selling faction is a "bizarre narrative", I'm eager to hear from you which faction you think is the best selling and for what reasons.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice though Walrus? Didn't you literally fantasise something I hadn't said only a page back, as well as make up forum rules? When you're imagining that posters have said something they haven't on a forum where you can literally see what those people have written, perhaps its time to take a break, sit back and think about just what you're doing.

Your strawman is right here:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

I wasn't even the first one to point it out. The statement was never that rules do not affect Marine sales. Something something "imagining that posters say things" something something "where you can literally see" something something indeed. The fact that someone else has also used a strawman does not change the fact that you did too.

I'd add in your defense that I don't think you did so maliciously, but rather just as a misreading of the post you were responding to, but you remain responsible for what you post.

Further, considering you went on to do exactly what I got you mixed up with others of doing, in this post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

I don't think I do need to take a break, because there was clearly cause for me to get you mixed up with other people. You're right in your assertion that people don't have sales figures for Marines, but you then go on to commit exactly the same fallacy as you point out, only in the opposite direction. You're (correctly) calling someone out for being wrong and then committing exactly the same error at the same time. Considering how we literally just had the conversation where I pointed out that people tended to do this exact thing, that's a bit discouraging.

Finally, I'm not making up forum rules. Changing people's quotes, including "FTFY" type posts, has had mods stepping in since I joined the forum in 2010. That I chose to edit it out of my previous post doesn't mean the practice doesn't exist. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask the mods directly. With this I'm done for now, I'll read any finishing reply you feel like making but I don't think me clogging the thread up further will add to the discussion at hand.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

How many shrikes are they selling? What about IFF, now? How many IH lists are using him?

Centurions are a new kit, right?

I think good and bad rules drive sales but just in the most extreme examples.
For example, Stealth suits are much better than kroot hounds but nobody is buying either for their rules. In the other hand the FW Yvranna suit was a top seller because how busted they were.

The same happens to marines. They sell consistentely well evem with mediocre rules, but when some units have busted rules, tournament players will buy them.
But we also have to remember that ultra competitive players are a minority of a section of the player base "tournament players"
When a unit has rules so bad nobody uses it, as long as the kit is decent it will see sales, because rules come and go.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your strawman is right here:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

I wasn't even the first one to point it out. The statement was never that rules do not affect Marine sales.

I'd add in your defense that I don't think you did so maliciously, but rather just as a misreading of the post you were responding to, but you remain responsible for what you post.

The statement was that rules have no affect on Marine sales was it not? Reading exactly what Brian has written it implies that to me anyway. 'GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well' surely implies that they sell well regardless of their rules? What else could it imply, exactly?

This is evidently false. Store owners have stated as much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The fact is, GW know damn well Marines don't need to be strong to sell well. sell armies with a smaller dedicated fanbase may need that, but Marines seem to sell quite well for GW even when their rules aren't partiuclarly strong.

What a load of rubbish. If you think rules don’t affect Marine sales I suggest you ask your local store how many Iron Father Ferrios models they have in stock compared to Reivers.

Yes Marines sell. Maybe it’s because they feature in all of the box sets, get tons of new models, are pushed by GW at every opportunity, weren’t actually bad before the recent buff, always get the new stuff first (stratagems, codex for any edition) etc? You frequently forget all of these contributing factors when discussing Marine sales (for which you have 0 actual data, of course).

How many shrikes are they selling? What about IFF, now? How many IH lists are using him?

Centurions are a new kit, right?

Yea it's not like GW literally nerfed the IH repulsor the minute it went out of stock or anything...wait a minute. IFF is still selling like hot cakes affording to suppliers. He still features in lists. What's your point?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yea it's not like GW literally nerfed the IH repulsor the minute it went out of stock or anything...wait a minute. IFF is still selling like hot cakes affording to suppliers. He still features in lists. What's your point?

You dont recall they nerfed the Executioner BEFORE the marine books?

Hey, where's all the busted Impulsors? Infiltrators? Incursors?

"According to suppliers" = some unprovable crap I made up to try and make a point that doesn't exist.