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Looks more like a lore entree to me. Probably not a doctrine.

Apparently Inquisitors get the same weapon Relic

The Salt Mine wrote:
Looks more like a lore entree to me. Probably not a doctrine.

Agreed. Not seeing anything in this that moves the needle.

Won't be wasting my money on this trash.

'You get a weapon that hurts you and fails to work 17% of the time, why aren't you happy?'

There is nothing in the book about upgrading CSM characters judging from the ToC.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Looks more like a lore entree to me. Probably not a doctrine.

Agreed. Not seeing anything in this that moves the needle.

Won't be wasting my money on this trash.

'You get a weapon that hurts you and fails to work 17% of the time, why aren't you happy?'

There's a stratagem for that. In the past that was a problem, but now you just use a CP and you can basically ignore it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There's a stratagem for that. In the past that was a problem, but now you just use a CP and you can basically ignore it.

Fair enough, so 17% of the time it costs a CP to use and hopefully doesn't fail again.

Still trash.

Love having half the article dedicated to a weapon that isn't even half as effective as a generic master crafted thunderhammer, and has 1 in 6 chance to flat out fail, likely losing your character in the process.

You have a small chance of a drawback that can be ignored by spending a ressource for getting a weapon that is on average deadlier than your regular stuff.

How is that trash? Demon weapons always came with the lore of being dangerous. To their foes and wielder likewise. Feels like a fair implementation of their lore into the rules.

a_typical_hero wrote:
You have a small chance of a drawback that can be ignored by spending a ressource for getting a weapon that is on average deadlier than your regular stuff.

How is that trash? Demon weapons always came with the lore of being dangerous. To their foes and wielder likewise. Feels like a fair implementation of their lore into the rules.

It's trash because it's a placebo, not a solution.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
You have a small chance of a drawback that can be ignored by spending a ressource for getting a weapon that is on average deadlier than your regular stuff.

How is that trash? Demon weapons always came with the lore of being dangerous. To their foes and wielder likewise. Feels like a fair implementation of their lore into the rules.

It's trash because it's a placebo, not a solution.

Was anyone really expecting an actual solution though?

Wayniac wrote:
Was anyone really expecting an actual solution though?

OP seemed terribly excited about it...

I mean, hip hip hurray that we get some, customizability back, and some flavour.
But flavouring a dex that is in vast parts more like a structural questionable bridge with only some working pilllars and walking boards is . as you said, placebo.
Sure you can paint the bad boards up with a colour, doesn't change the fact that the bridge is structurally unstable mostly.

And being excited about an upcoming release is something we cant let happen here, so better quickly copy&paste / post that:

- my faction gets less than your faction
- what my faction get is trash anyway
- more marine rules *slow clap*

PA1 did do something for Craftworlds, the Inquisition WD article seems to shape up nicely, the last supplements have been great.

How about we wait with the criticism until we have the full rules and let people enjoy the anticipation of new releases?

a_typical_hero wrote:
How about we wait with the criticism until we have the full rules and let people enjoy the anticipation of new releases?

The ToC tells you everything that's in there.

It's re-arranging deck chairs.

Happy to be wrong.

a_typical_hero wrote:
And being excited about an upcoming release is something we cant let happen here, so better quickly copy&paste / post that:

- my faction gets less than your faction
- what my faction get is trash anyway
- more marine rules *slow clap*

PA1 did do something for Craftworlds, the Inquisition WD article seems to shape up nicely, the last supplements have been great.

How about we wait with the criticism until we have the full rules and let people enjoy the anticipation of new releases?

I mean the first is especially true for all non Eldar/ gsc xenos.
the second point is , well, i mean if you have allready a better relic, what is the point in this one? Sooo ehhh (guess you could run 2 axes but i mean, why?)
Well and the last one is also marines and spikey marines again so yes it is true.

People here talking about how good the new daemon weapon is, and all I'm wondering is "why would you want to pay for a weapon with -5 AP?". I can't see many scenarios where it matters over -3 or -4 AP.

This could be just to emphasise how deadly the weapon is in the lore. In older editions Tau Mass Drivers(?) had AP 1, even though armor saves capped out at 2+ and there was no bonus in overcoming tank armour for it.

a_typical_hero wrote:
This could be just to emphasise how deadly the weapon is in the lore. In older editions Tau Mass Drivers(?) had AP 1, even though armor saves capped out at 2+ and there was no bonus in overcoming tank armour for it.

IIRC AP1 weapons got a bonus on the damage table roll.

Isn't this just infinitely inferior to the DP with Skullreaver?

 blood reaper wrote:
Isn't this just infinitely inferior to the DP with Skullreaver?

Yep, which was allready brought up

Darsath wrote:
People here talking about how good the new daemon weapon is, and all I'm wondering is "why would you want to pay for a weapon with -5 AP?"

Taking on Centurions with a DP, you have a decent chance (66%) to wound on 2's and will deny armor saves completely. Malefic Talons wound on 3's and get saved on 4's so in this case in makes a big difference.

Yes, agreed, it's an average weapon, compared to the field, and below average compared to what has been coming out in SM releases. Once you figure in the 'on a 1 the weapon bites your face' rule, it drops to 'very poor'. I hope there are better daemonic weapons than this, or that they are easy to access. Not holding my breath though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It makes me think of axe of blind fury. The writers imagine the swinginess being uber-chaos and cool. On the table, effects that randomly make your hero feel like a chump are ... well, nice for your opponent I guess?

There has to be a risk-reward calculation at the least, and they tend to completely leave this our of their considerations. Fingers crossed Daemonic Weapons don't repeat this.

Might also be useful chopping up a 2+ Leviathan Dread after Death Hex.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Taking on Centurions with a DP, you have a decent chance (66%) to wound on 2's and will deny armor saves completely. Malefic Talons wound on 3's and get saved on 4's so in this case in makes a big difference.

You have to factor in losing 3 attacks to gain that benefit.

You might kill a Certurion, 2 if you're lucky.

 Continuity wrote:
Love having half the article dedicated to a weapon that isn't even half as effective as a generic master crafted thunderhammer, and has 1 in 6 chance to flat out fail, likely losing your character in the process.

Not sure about that. Check my math to be sure though.

Exalted Champ 5A on the charge, DttFE
5 * 1.167 * .833 * .888 * 2 = 2 dead centurions for 74 points.

Captain 5 TH swings
5 * .777 * .666 * .666 = 1.7 wounding hits = 1 dead centurion

DP vs Knight
6 * .998 * .666 * 2 = 8

Cpt vs Knight
6 * .777 * .5 * .833 * 3 = 5.8

Even if you multiply those results by 0.83 they still come out a bit ahead, which is clearly quite dangerous in a tight situation with no CP. And consider that's a regular TH, so, might be a bit behind based on the type and situation.

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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Was anyone really expecting an actual solution though?

OP seemed terribly excited about it...

Because Daemon Weapons are cool. They've ALWAYS had this drawback. Did I state it was panacea?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Because Daemon Weapons are cool. They've ALWAYS had this drawback. Did I state it was panacea?

No, you did not, but you seem terribly excited about it, so enjoy. It's a useless placebo that does nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I'd rather save my CP to use Veterans again, since that might actually accomplish something.

*shrug* I love daemon weapons. I haven't flubbed Abaddon, yet, so i'll consider myself lucky.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
*shrug* I love daemon weapons. I haven't flubbed Abaddon, yet, so i'll consider myself lucky.

I like Daemon Weapons too.

It doesn't change the fact that this doesn't actually do anything to address the current state of CSM problems.

I put a CSM model on the table and it is an objectively inferior model. I would even argue it's inferior to Scouts under the current conditions.

That is a problem that will not be solved by shiny baubles.

They're sidegrades but they are very good if you know what you're doing.

What's most important is Prescience so you are landing DttFE on 5+. A DP will clear 3x Cents fairly reliably -- 5 base attacks, generate 1-2 more, clear 6W on 2's with no saves. I don't see that as terribly unrealistic.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
*shrug* I love daemon weapons. I haven't flubbed Abaddon, yet, so i'll consider myself lucky.

I like Daemon Weapons too.

It doesn't change the fact that this doesn't actually do anything to address the current state of CSM problems.

I put a CSM model on the table and it is an objectively inferior model. I would even argue it's inferior to Scouts under the current conditions.

That is a problem that will not be solved by shiny baubles.

Sure, but just let it play out. If it's still a gak sandwich after CA then we've got work to do to either bust GW's balls, comp, or play something else.

For chaos marines I've always liked the idea of them having a semi horde style ability with normal marines. Mass produced marines who are still marines, but these are not the hyper trained, indoctrinated or experienced boys veterans are. These are lab grown and mass produced comparative trash. The best trash in the game, but still trash. Lower their points and there you go.

Then have the real killers. Long war veterans, cult marines and grizzled trash that fermented into a hardened badass killer. These are your boys you go to for that proper marine feeling so 2 wounds, better attacks, more options, elite slots and the like. These are the guys who stand up to Primaris and dominate lower tier mooks. Naturally more expensive and valuable.