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I mean we just got fall back block...that's pretty sweet. Forcing an explosion on their side...awesome.

The Khorne stuff seems brutal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
There is an update on Warhammer Community. Including a Stratagem to update CSM HQ characters

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/14/chaos-space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-4/

Sweet, happy to be wrong.

Sadly it confirms I'm not giving GW money for this waste of paper.

Locking the Dark Apostle upgrade to Word Bearers only is a exceptional level of hosing.

A Thunder Hammer that always wounds on 2+ and a Stratagem that just plain turns off falling back and the supplement is "a waste of paper"? Yes, there's a 1/6 chance of the Power Fist relic going wrong, but wounding T8 on a 2+ is great. Reroll charge/hit/wound is similarly great for a Slaanesh Character.

I can agree on the locking of the Apostle upgrade being stupid though.

It's a band aid, Chaos allready had good enough HQ.
What CSM needed was a rework to traits and their baseline Infantry, or what GW deems is supposedly the base line infantry (cough CSM cough).

Instead it reinfoced two things,

Play alpha legion.

Use cultists.

Not Online!!! wrote:


It's a band aid, Chaos allready had good enough HQ.
What CSM needed was a rework to traits and their baseline Infantry, or what GW deems is supposedly the base line infantry (cough CSM cough).

Instead it reinfoced two things,

Play alpha legion.

Use cultists.

We don't quite know everything yet. The preview is otherwise promising.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean we just got fall back block...that's pretty sweet. Forcing an explosion on their side...awesome.

The Khorne stuff seems brutal.

I don't quite get the axe.

Like if i just get one 6, i do 3 mortals and then thats it from the carrier?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


It's a band aid, Chaos allready had good enough HQ.
What CSM needed was a rework to traits and their baseline Infantry, or what GW deems is supposedly the base line infantry (cough CSM cough).

Instead it reinfoced two things,

Play alpha legion.

Use cultists.

We don't quite know everything yet. The preview is otherwise promising.

I wonder how a 13 pts model is supposed to keep up with a 5 pts model with AP-1 , that has bigger unit size and can therefore take better advantage off the allready great baseline stratagems.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean we just got fall back block...that's pretty sweet. Forcing an explosion on their side...awesome.

The Khorne stuff seems brutal.

I don't quite get the axe.

Like if i just get one 6, i do 3 mortals and then thats it from the carrier?

Instead of the usual 'does a mortal wound plus additional damage' it is just 'does 3 mortal wounds' and then you move to the next attack.

8

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
There is an update on Warhammer Community. Including a Stratagem to update CSM HQ characters

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/14/chaos-space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-4/

Sweet, happy to be wrong.

Sadly it confirms I'm not giving GW money for this waste of paper.

Locking the Dark Apostle upgrade to Word Bearers only is a exceptional level of hosing.

A Thunder Hammer that always wounds on 2+ and a Stratagem that just plain turns off falling back and the supplement is "a waste of paper"? Yes, there's a 1/6 chance of the Power Fist relic going wrong, but wounding T8 on a 2+ is great. Reroll charge/hit/wound is similarly great for a Slaanesh Character.

I can agree on the locking of the Apostle upgrade being stupid though.

Yes honestly loving that new strategem.

No running from the boys in midnight clad. Just wish it worked for my contemptor. Or against repulsors.

The iw trait is freaking amazing. Rerolls 1 to wound for all my dreads and havocs is great. Iw gunline with levis, scorpius and havocs will bringt some serious pain.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean we just got fall back block...that's pretty sweet. Forcing an explosion on their side...awesome.

The Khorne stuff seems brutal.

I don't quite get the axe.

Like if i just get one 6, i do 3 mortals and then thats it from the carrier?

Instead of the usual 'does a mortal wound plus additional damage' it is just 'does 3 mortal wounds' and then you move to the next attack.

Well, i guess people now have a reason for a Exalted champion with chainaxe

I think chaos soup is going to be delicious.. Exploding repulsors & IK on a 3 which you cant re-roll? Daamn... Charging the chaff screen and not needeing to wrap & trap ? nice..

I am so sick and tired of this "we don't know the whole picture" horsegak. We know enough. If there were trait updates, it would have been in the preview. None of these are bad, but they don't fix the problem. In fact, they actually exacerbate it since you already saw Alpha Legion Cultist Spam, and this just makes that particular combo even better.

Wayniac wrote:
I am so sick and tired of this "we don't know the whole picture" horsegak. We know enough. If there were trait updates, it would have been in the preview. None of these are bad, but they don't fix the problem. In fact, they actually exacerbate it since you already saw Alpha Legion Cultist Spam, and this just makes that particular combo even better.

K, well, you're free to be pissed off and we're free to wait for the reviews tomorrow before coming to a conclusion about the book.

 Argive wrote:
I think chaos soup is going to be delicious.. Exploding repulsors & IK on a 3 which you cant re-roll? Daamn... Charging the chaff screen and not needeing to wrap & trap ? nice..

I ain't souping gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I am so sick and tired of this "we don't know the whole picture" horsegak. We know enough. If there were trait updates, it would have been in the preview. None of these are bad, but they don't fix the problem. In fact, they actually exacerbate it since you already saw Alpha Legion Cultist Spam, and this just makes that particular combo even better.

K, well, you're free to be pissed off and we're free to wait for the reviews tomorrow before coming to a conclusion about the book.

Yeah they've made my raptors better with that strategem. I'll settle down the salt.

For now.

On Facebook they previewed a totally different rule for Vox Dominus, so I guess we know two NL artefacts already?

On FB Vox Dominus gives a 2+ save and the bearer always counts as being in cover.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
On Facebook they previewed a totally different rule for Vox Dominus, so I guess we know two NL artefacts already?

On FB Vox Dominus gives a 2+ save and the bearer always counts as being in cover.

Sounds like an IH relic. The fluff of the Vox matches the rules in the WHC article.

So incompetence or actually a second Relic?

Not Online!!! wrote:
So incompetence or actually a second Relic?

Incompetence.. If it's ever a choice with GW and anything to do with rules. Id bet the house on incompetence 9/10

Not Online!!! wrote:
So incompetence or actually a second Relic?

Second relic. Sounds like a retread of stormbolt plate from traitor legions.

The Chainaxe relic could be nasty so I like that.

20 man Raptors from Night Lords spaced out as much as you can to stop as much shooting as possible.

That's about all I like so far. I'm not wasting a Warlord Trait to make my Cultists honestly not shoot much better.

However we need to see if there are updated traits.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
A Thunder Hammer that always wounds on 2+ and a Stratagem that just plain turns off falling back and the supplement is "a waste of paper"? Yes, there's a 1/6 chance of the Power Fist relic going wrong, but wounding T8 on a 2+ is great. Reroll charge/hit/wound is similarly great for a Slaanesh Character.

As was pointed out, HQ help was largely superfluous and unnecessary.

The no fallback strat requires I play what is, by general consensus, one of the worst legions available.

Also, not a Slaanesh character, specifically an EC character.

The *only* reason to buy this book is the strats, and honestly, that's not enough to get me to buy the book over simply getting that information elsewhere.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I can agree on the locking of the Apostle upgrade being stupid though.

Yeah, well the discrepancies between the Dark Apostle and nu-Chaplain are a stark illustration of the state of SM vs CSM.

As pointed out, all this did was re-emphasize Alpha Legion and Cultists and left the rest of the legions as largely fluff or filler.

Well, as long as they drop the apostle to 60 points before disciples I'd be ok. Odds of that big of a point cut is slim to none though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, as long as they drop the apostle to 60 points before disciples I'd be ok. Odds of that big of a point cut is slim to none though.

I think what we'll see is points adjustments in CA. From there, we're looking at maybe late next year Daemons gets an update. CSM won't be getting much beyond CA until 2021 most likely given that almost all the Xenos factions are in desperate need of updates and we just got a codex earlier this year.

So, get comfortable folks, this is pretty much it.

Wayniac wrote:
I am so sick and tired of this "we don't know the whole picture" horsegak. We know enough. If there were trait updates, it would have been in the preview. None of these are bad, but they don't fix the problem. In fact, they actually exacerbate it since you already saw Alpha Legion Cultist Spam, and this just makes that particular combo even better.

Let's ignore that the comments have been more positive on average since more rules got previewed and we have a better understanding.

No matter how often you write it, it does not change the fact that judging something entirely based on a tiny tidbit of information (e.g Table of content + one weapon) is just silly hyperbole. I get it, you are frustrated with the current situation of your faction and I have the feeling you expect something completely different than what these supplements are likely to bring (with the exception of BT, as they are C:SM who are late to the party). Still, there might be some new combinations in there that are worthwhile for CSM players until GW takes the time to give you proper attention.

But the book was leaked already, even GW posted a ton of rules online. The relics, the warlord traits etc.

Assuming we're getting the vigilus bl treatment for the other codex legions we've got over 20 more warlord traits, strategems, and relics to see. So there's probably more good stuff coming.

And why is everyone complaining that either:

A:Gw are pushing al who are already strong, or

B:The best previewed strategem is for night lords who are considered a weak legion?

So you don't want to build up an already strong legion or give some good rules to one that generally doesn't get many? It's one or the other.

Karol wrote:
But the book was leaked already, even GW posted a ton of rules online. The relics, the warlord traits etc.

Err...not that I've seen there has been no leak. GW hasn't really posted a "ton" given there are 6 factions each with a page dedicated entirely to traits, artefacts, and stratagems means that each page will likely have 6 items on them. That likely means 36 relics, 36 artefacts, 36 strats, and the daemon weapons.

Something to keep in mind is that BT got a REAL supplement. Not the gak they said was an equivalent to a supplement but nowhere comes close. So they COULD have put a 2.0 update to CSM in this book, and CHOSE not to.

This is deliberate. Either they don't care, or they really think that CSM is fine as they are and don't need a 2.0 update. More likely, they don't want to make CSM mirror images of SM again, but don't really have an idea of how to make them unique enough. I can't believe they actually think the book is fine, since anyone with any sort of idea of the game could look at it and see it's not. So it has to be that they don't know how to fix it, so don't.

Wayniac wrote:
Something to keep in mind is that BT got a REAL supplement. Not the gak they said was an equivalent to a supplement but nowhere comes close. So they COULD have put a 2.0 update to CSM in this book, and CHOSE not to.

This is deliberate. Either they don't care, or they really think that CSM is fine as they are and don't need a 2.0 update. More likely, they don't want to make CSM mirror images of SM again, but don't really have an idea of how to make them unique enough.

White Scars are tearing it up without broad use of doctrines. Fancy strats, relics, and traits on top of solid units are doing that. With CA it's plausible we could get to the same place, but I hope that it's just not cacophony oblits that are just cheaper.

I'd hope for some damn unit that can shoot stuff out of LOS, but that's a bridge too far.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Assuming we're getting the vigilus bl treatment for the other codex legions we've got over 20 more warlord traits, strategems, and relics to see. So there's probably more good stuff coming.

The salt here is that CSM troops are objectively inferior to their counterparts by pretty much every measurable metric in the game and this doesn't appear likely to do anything to alleviate that problem.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
A:Gw are pushing al who are already strong

I wouldn't say their 'pushing' it per se, it's simply that they were already generally considered the best CSM legion (BL kind of challenges them) and this didn't really change that, if anything it reinforced this state of affairs.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
B:The best previewed strategem is for night lords who are considered a weak legion?

Without speaking to anyone else's concerns, the disappointment here is that the Night Lords legion trait needs to be redesigned from the ground up, simply throwing some spackle on it and calling it good is not going to cover up their problems.

On the most basic level, any army in the game can spend 2 CP to entirely ignore your legion trait, which doesn't even delve into the armies that can simply ignore it entirely, which is a not insignificant number of the armies in the game.

So who knows? Maybe when the full picture becomes available we'll be in the middle of a new CSM renaissance (which I'm sure would thrill our xenos friends), but given what we've seen, that seem highly unlikely.

If, as it appears, there are no new legion traits or equivelents of the super doctrine, then I'm afraid its a damp squib.

Much like with the Aeldari - its not 100% rubbish, because yes, these weapons, relics and stratagems etc do represent an increase in power. But it isn't fundamentally altering how CSM play. Or at least not as I see it.

I mean for Word Bearers, is having 2-4 extra CP (if we include the warlord's reroll) better than 3 inches on auras and other abilities? Probably yes. Does it make up for... essentially not having a legion trait? No. Does this meaningfully alter how a Word Bearers CSM army plays as compared with AL, IW, Night Lords etc? Not really.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Assuming we're getting the vigilus bl treatment for the other codex legions we've got over 20 more warlord traits, strategems, and relics to see. So there's probably more good stuff coming.

The salt here is that CSM troops are objectively inferior to their counterparts by pretty much every measurable metric in the game and this doesn't appear likely to do anything to alleviate that problem.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
A:Gw are pushing al who are already strong

I wouldn't say their 'pushing' it per se, it's simply that they were already generally considered the best CSM legion (BL kind of challenges them) and this didn't really change that, if anything it reinforced this state of affairs.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
B:The best previewed strategem is for night lords who are considered a weak legion?

Without speaking to anyone else's concerns, the disappointment here is that the Night Lords legion trait needs to be redesigned from the ground up, simply throwing some spackle on it and calling it good is not going to cover up their problems.

On the most basic level, any army in the game can spend 2 CP to entirely ignore your legion trait, which doesn't even delve into the armies that can simply ignore it entirely, which is a not insignificant number of the armies in the game.

So who knows? Maybe when the full picture becomes available we'll be in the middle of a new CSM renaissance (which I'm sure would thrill our xenos friends), but given what we've seen, that seem highly unlikely.

Night lords don't need a complete rework. All gw has to do is allow nl to take raptors as troops just like we can take zerkers and ec can take nm. Then bring back the rule that jump troops can reroll charges. Getting strike first strike hard back would be nice as would forcing night fighting again but it wouldn't be necessary.

We don't know what the "champions of chaos " page in pa2 contains. It's probably just fluff but it could have new traits. The current traits take up less than a page in the codex.