Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Night lords don't need a complete rework. All gw has to do is allow nl to take raptors as troops just like we can take zerkers and ec can take nm. Then bring back the rule that jump troops can reroll charges. Getting strike first strike hard back would be nice as would forcing night fighting again but it wouldn't be necessary.

That would certainly be interesting (with Host Raptorial possibly), but you're still left with a largely ineffective legion trait and almost no way to capitalize on that trait when it does work (at least no way to capitalize that isn't easily countered).

Raptors in general have just been very underwhelming this edition, making them the signature unit of an underwhelming legion just kind of adds insult to injury.

you're still left with a largely ineffective legion trait

I'm sure there's going to be some new LD warfare tricks in the upcoming book.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm sure there's going to be some new LD warfare tricks in the upcoming book.

I'm not sure how you do that unless you have strats that suddenly make units that are immune to morale suddenly vulnerable to it, or flat-out prevent the Insane Bravery strat.

But you clearly approach this with what I consider an unrealistic level of optimism.

There are already masses of LD warfare tricks floating around the place, in my experience they all suck. LD just isn't really consequential in 8th imo

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm not sure how you do that unless you have strats that suddenly make units that are immune to morale suddenly vulnerable to it, or flat-out prevent the Insane Bravery strat.

I think that's quite possible given we've seen abilities that tamper with core mechanics like Falling Back and Explodes.

9

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Night lords don't need a complete rework. All gw has to do is allow nl to take raptors as troops just like we can take zerkers and ec can take nm. Then bring back the rule that jump troops can reroll charges. Getting strike first strike hard back would be nice as would forcing night fighting again but it wouldn't be necessary.

That would certainly be interesting (with Host Raptorial possibly), but you're still left with a largely ineffective legion trait and almost no way to capitalize on that trait when it does work (at least no way to capitalize that isn't easily countered).

Raptors in general have just been very underwhelming this edition, making them the signature unit of an underwhelming legion just kind of adds insult to injury.

Not with the new strategem. A 20 man raptor unit deepstrikeing with the host raptorial detachment warlord trait on a smash lord, and spreading out to maximum cohesion could tag a lot of units.

I wonder if we see any adjustment to Warp Talons. No Overwatch and no Falling Back is going to really mess with armies that don't have anything to offer outside the shooting phase.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not with the new strategem. A 20 man raptor unit deepstrikeing with the host raptorial detachment warlord trait on a smash lord, and spreading out to maximum cohesion could tag a lot of units.

Raptors are 15 max, I could see this being decent against some GEQ, but I think nu-Marines would laugh assuming you can even deep strike within some kind of reasonable charge range. Against Tau you'll end up locking up a bunch of drones.

Probably good against Orks and maybe Nids/GSC assuming they aren't protected by spore mines. Eldar are going to burn 2 CP and cripple that unit on drop though. Knights are quite happy to have you lock up their GEQs, that's what they're there for.

It's just a bit too situational for my tastes.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I wonder if we see any adjustment to Warp Talons. No Overwatch and no Falling Back is going to really mess with armies that don't have anything to offer outside the shooting phase.

With marines at 12 talons should be 11, but thats probably it.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not with the new strategem. A 20 man raptor unit deepstrikeing with the host raptorial detachment warlord trait on a smash lord, and spreading out to maximum cohesion could tag a lot of units.

Raptors are 15 max, I could see this being decent against some GEQ, but I think nu-Marines would laugh assuming you can even deep strike within some kind of reasonable charge range. Against Tau you'll end up locking up a bunch of drones.

Probably good against Orks and maybe Nids/GSC assuming they aren't protected by spore mines. Eldar are going to burn 2 CP and cripple that unit on drop though. Knights are quite happy to have you lock up their GEQs, that's what they're there for.

It's just a bit too situational for my tastes.

It's 40k. Everything is situational. Paper, rock, scissors.

You'd obviously have other units to deal with problems that tactic couldn't.

My point is you don't need to rely on the legion trait. Trust me I've learned not to. But there's still 6 warlord traits, 5 strategems, and 5 more relics to see. So there might even be help with that.

I think doing anything with raptors is a waste of time. Their damage output is abysmal. They are not sufficient cheap that a 15 strong 225 points (before specials) unit can be thrown in as a suicide unit.

The fact it doesn't work against vehicles is a further negative for this "tie them up" approach.

Warp Talons - imo anyway - are far too expensive/fragile to be viable. They don't actually hit that hard either due to their ridiculous price.

Really the use here I think would be ensuring you are locked in combat (and so can't be shot) without having to suffer the vagaries of the wrap and trap.

I'd have thought there are more legs on your warp-timed and buffed up Possessed blob. Or say Khorne Berzerkers.
First turn go into something and chop it to pieces and set it up so you can consolidate into another infantry squad (or character). Take a few punches back for your trouble. Play the stratagem, they can't shoot you and you proceed to cut them to pieces in their turn. Now you are hopefully deep in their lines and free to charge whatever you like on your next turn, which may be game winning.

How about this: Drop a Slaanesh Plasma Terminator squad, plasmaify something, and then charge them into something else to keep them around for another turn?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I wonder if we see any adjustment to Warp Talons. No Overwatch and no Falling Back is going to really mess with armies that don't have anything to offer outside the shooting phase.

With marines at 12 talons should be 11, but thats probably it.

That would be nice but I doubt we'll see that big of a drop. That's 13 ppm.

?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

No it really does not make them interesting. Can you stop white knighting for a moment?

Warp Talons don't do enough damage and they die if you look at them funny. Assault units which just tickle the enemy do not work.

Ignoring overwatch is useful - but its only in the turn when you deepstrike in, and you therefore have to roll at least a 9" on the charge. You are going to fail a lot.

Possessed used to be 1W. Warp Talons could get the same treatment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

No it really does not make them interesting. Can you stop white knighting for a moment?

I said somewhat. Heaven forbid someone isn't gaking on something non stop. What would we do with ourselves?

Bunch of god damn babies.

No super-Legion traits also means there's no drawbacks to mixing and matching your Legions depending on what you want to task them with.

SM armies are going to be strong but being mono-Codex, they're going to be awfully predictable

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

Feth. I always think of them as 24. Can't really take them without claws.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

Feth. I always think of them as 24. Can't really take them without claws.

I only mentioned it like that, because it's the only part of them likely to change.

Actually I take that back. Marines pay 10 for a pair now. So, 21 points is probably the lowest we could see them.

I don’t know, even beyond the questionable damage output of Warp Talons/Raptors, the amount of Deep Strike protection available in the game these days make it a really sketchy tactic.

Against SM you have to assume you’ll be forced to DS at 12”, against Tau you have to assume you’ll be charging Drones, against Eldar there’s Forewarned, against Nids you have the spore mine bubble. I largely stopped building DS into my lists even before the SM upgrades, and the situation certainly hasn’t improved.

IPO

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

Feth. I always think of them as 24. Can't really take them without claws.

I only mentioned it like that, because it's the only part of them likely to change.

Actually I take that back. Marines pay 10 for a pair now. So, 21 points is probably the lowest we could see them.

Not your fault my brain works in battlescribe.

But seriously,10 points for sm? Didn't some of their jump troops get cheaper too? Ca better fix these points discrepancies. Sm get everything for less on units with better rules.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
IPO

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

Feth. I always think of them as 24. Can't really take them without claws.

I only mentioned it like that, because it's the only part of them likely to change.

Actually I take that back. Marines pay 10 for a pair now. So, 21 points is probably the lowest we could see them.

Not your fault my brain works in battlescribe.

But seriously,10 points for sm? Didn't some of their jump troops get cheaper too? Ca better fix these points discrepancies. Sm get everything for less on units with better rules.

Jump Assaults are still 15 like raptors, but obviously better supporting rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
?

Talons are 12 currently with 12 more for claws. 3 attacks from brutal assault makes them somewhat interesting.

No it really does not make them interesting. Can you stop white knighting for a moment?

I said somewhat. Heaven forbid someone isn't gaking on something non stop. What would we do with ourselves?

Bunch of god damn babies.

I'm not the one defending garbage units and rules writing on a 24/7 basis like you have been.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm not the one defending garbage units and rules writing on a 24/7 basis like you have been.

Maybe you should try reading the rest of my posts instead of assuming my position and automatically default to posting nothing useful as a response. Or, you know, simply disagreeing.

I don't give a feth what people think about GW. I hate bull gak artists and whining for the sake of whining.

I haven't seen a lot of complaints about the Daemon Weapons, Relics, Stratagems, or WL Traits. They seem to be pretty much on point. Lots of flavour and fun tricks to make playstyles more diverse and unique.

A lot of people are complaining PA2 wasn't designed as a competitive balance patch. I think you're bound to be disappointed if that's what you were expecting.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of complaints about the Daemon Weapons, Relics, Stratagems, or WL Traits. They seem to be pretty much on point. Lots of flavour and fun tricks to make playstyles more diverse and unique.

A lot of people are complaining PA2 wasn't designed as a competitive balance patch. I think you're bound to be disappointed if that's what you were expecting.

Then they should market it as an RPG, not a war game.

It is.

I'm not hallucinating a name generator in this book, am I?