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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of complaints about the Daemon Weapons, Relics, Stratagems, or WL Traits. They seem to be pretty much on point. Lots of flavour and fun tricks to make playstyles more diverse and unique.

A lot of people are complaining PA2 wasn't designed as a competitive balance patch. I think you're bound to be disappointed if that's what you were expecting.

Then they should market it as an RPG, not a war game.

Well, actually they do and it's also how I see it and how the game works best. Especially when looking at the whining of many competitive players on this board I have the feeling if these guys would simply play more interesting scenarios than eternal war and ITC many problems wouldn't be as bad. But of course if that's how people have fun I can't tell them they're doing it wrong. I can just say as a fluff oriented player GW provides me with a lot of things and the rules for CSM in PA 2 bring back rules from the 3.5 codex and Traitor Legions, which is nice.

So bt got a supplement, a real one, one that makes them monoviable.
Further they are just better for less points and don't need to waste cp to get enough effectiveness on their base troops with WT etc.



Seems fair, it isn't like the normal marine dex 2.0 was allready head and shoulder above csm dex 1.1
....


...

To be honest at this point, we've just house ruled CSM army traits effect every unit in the army (Yesss, +1 LD Land raiders!).

Otherwise all of us csm players are kinda disgruntled and unfortunately the massive wave of Codex space marine players have only themselves to play against since none of us feel like getting our gak kicked in even in a casual setting.

If I get any more bitter better repaint my lads to Iron Warriors!

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
To be honest at this point, we've just house ruled CSM army traits effect every unit in the army (Yesss, +1 LD Land raiders!).

Otherwise all of us csm players are kinda disgruntled and unfortunately the massive wave of Codex space marine players have only themselves to play against since none of us feel like getting our gak kicked in even in a casual setting.

If I get any more bitter better repaint my lads to Iron Warriors!

well CSM atleast GOT a dex and don't lose out on 4 stats compared to R&H infantry.

But i distinctly remember GW stating they fetthed up and would improve this situation at the start of 8th........

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't give a feth what people think about GW. I hate bull gak artists and whining for the sake of whining.

okey, but this way it makes it non valid to voice any dislike of the state of the game, unless one is either a GW employ of high enough rank to rewrite the rules or impact the rewriting of the rules, or big enoug investor to do the same thing. Everyone else is just unhappy and Gw does not care about it.

I'm not hallucinating a name generator in this book, am I?

i wonder why do those exist, to be honest. Are people having trouble with writing down various german, dack or hungarian names, or something?

Karol wrote:
okey, but this way it makes it non valid to voice any dislike of the state of the game, unless one is either a GW employ of high enough rank to rewrite the rules or impact the rewriting of the rules, or big enoug investor to do the same thing. Everyone else is just unhappy and Gw does not care about it.

There is a difference in stating your dislike for something in a constructive manner and spilling "GW is trash this and GW is trash that" into every single thread that comes up. You don't see me writing under every slightly negative post "Your opinion is wrong, the game is still great". Some people are good at explaining why they think a rule is bad or why they are disappointed with the campaign books. Others don't add anything to the discussion apart from aggressively stating "I'm still angry and/or frustrated"

a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:
okey, but this way it makes it non valid to voice any dislike of the state of the game, unless one is either a GW employ of high enough rank to rewrite the rules or impact the rewriting of the rules, or big enoug investor to do the same thing. Everyone else is just unhappy and Gw does not care about it.

There is a difference in stating your dislike for something in a constructive manner and spilling "GW is trash this and GW is trash that" into every single thread that comes up. You don't see me writing under every slightly negative post "Your opinion is wrong, the game is still great". Some people are good at explaining why they think a rule is bad or why they are disappointed with the campaign books. Others don't add anything to the discussion apart from aggressively stating "I'm still angry and/or frustrated"

Which still adds to the discussion.

And considering the FB page, there are a lot of angry people here, People unhappy with the state GW is in, in terms of design.

And it is perfectly valid, just because you deem them not adding anything to the discussion, is solely a YOU issue.

And again YOU are not the sole arbitrator as to WHAT is deemed "adding to the discussion".

a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:
okey, but this way it makes it non valid to voice any dislike of the state of the game, unless one is either a GW employ of high enough rank to rewrite the rules or impact the rewriting of the rules, or big enoug investor to do the same thing. Everyone else is just unhappy and Gw does not care about it.

There is a difference in stating your dislike for something in a constructive manner and spilling "GW is trash this and GW is trash that" into every single thread that comes up. You don't see me writing under every slightly negative post "Your opinion is wrong, the game is still great". Some people are good at explaining why they think a rule is bad or why they are disappointed with the campaign books. Others don't add anything to the discussion apart from aggressively stating "I'm still angry and/or frustrated"

well I guess it is a thing. Though in the end it doesn't matter that much in the end game. It is just like sports. Doesn't matter if the dudes is more technical or just a year older and a head taller, if both put you on top of your head 9/10 times. But from a pure esthetic point of view, it is for sure better to read eloquent people, then not. that is very true.

And again YOU are not the sole arbitrator as to WHAT is deemed "adding to the discussion".

Isn't that mostly governed by social or status stuff? I mean I could try to rant at my store, and get kicked out 3-5 min in to it, but the store owner can go on a 1 hour non stop why women bringing children in to the store are worse then drunk drivers rant, and unless his wife pops up, he will not only do it, but could easily extend it too.

It is probably, I think, the same on forums, people that are liked, or at least people like to read what they write, can do more, then people who everyone wants to have on ignore.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So bt got a supplement, a real one, one that makes them monoviable.
Further they are just better for less points and don't need to waste cp to get enough effectiveness on their base troops with WT etc.



Seems fair, it isn't like the normal marine dex 2.0 was allready head and shoulder above csm dex 1.1
....


...

Have the rest of the rules leaked somewhere or something?

WE stratagem leak

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/dwqb52/world_eaters_stratagem_leak/

These seem to be way to good to be true. Would be crazy good....

Looks fake. Stoke the nails makes no sense.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't give a feth what people think about GW. I hate bull gak artists and whining for the sake of whining.

okey, but this way it makes it non valid to voice any dislike of the state of the game, unless one is either a GW employ of high enough rank to rewrite the rules or impact the rewriting of the rules, or big enoug investor to do the same thing. Everyone else is just unhappy and Gw does not care about it.

I'm not hallucinating a name generator in this book, am I?

i wonder why do those exist, to be honest. Are people having trouble with writing down various german, dack or hungarian names, or something?

Do you believe someone calling me a white knight for saying a unit is somewhat usable is a valuable contribution to the forum?

Is there something so horribly offensive to me saying that that it offends people sensibilities? In what way is it rational to take such an offense? Do you think someone taking such an offense might not actually be committed to arguing in good faith?

What exactly did that post add to anything?

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm not hallucinating a name generator in this book, am I?

Nope, all of the Chaos Legions & BTs get one. Some are likely just reprints from Kill Team supplements but others will be completely new

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Do you believe someone calling me a white knight for saying a unit is somewhat usable is a valuable contribution to the forum?

Is there something so horribly offensive to me saying that that it offends people sensibilities? In what way is it rational to take such an offense? Do you think someone taking such an offense might not actually be committed to arguing in good faith?

What exactly did that post add to anything?

I don't think you are a white knight and I don't see why people get so confrontational over 40k, but its really unclear how Warp Talons are usable. 3 attacks, even with reroll wounds and AP-2, just isn't good enough for 24 points. I don't think they would be much better at say 22 points. At the same time they are mortal wound bait, and really die to any large number of low/no AP shots/punches.

Really the bitterness over all this is we through Psychic Awakening was effectively "40k 8.5", and its looking like that's only the case for Marines. Which is unsurprisingly further embittering, given how many people think its Marines versus everyone else (even if Marines were quite rubbish for about 18 months outside of Guilliman buff blobs).

 p5freak wrote:
Looks fake. Stoke the nails makes no sense.

"Kill! Maim! Burn" -> the wording is suspect. Isn't it usually stated as "Maim! Kill! Burn!"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which still adds to the discussion.

And considering the FB page, there are a lot of angry people here, People unhappy with the state GW is in, in terms of design.

And it is perfectly valid, just because you deem them not adding anything to the discussion, is solely a YOU issue.

And again YOU are not the sole arbitrator as to WHAT is deemed "adding to the discussion".

I wrote that in response to what Slayer-Fan123 wrote to Daedalus81's statement about Warp Talons. You might disagree, but I'm with Daedalus81 here. Dismissing someone's valid opinion with a one liner that includes accusation of "white knighting" is bordering on "Posts that contain profanity, insults, blatant attempts at baiting a flame war (trolling), racial slurs, etc. will be locked, edited or deleted.". I really wish you could understand my position better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Do you believe someone calling me a white knight for saying a unit is somewhat usable is a valuable contribution to the forum?

Is there something so horribly offensive to me saying that that it offends people sensibilities? In what way is it rational to take such an offense? Do you think someone taking such an offense might not actually be committed to arguing in good faith?

What exactly did that post add to anything?

This

Edit:

Tyel wrote:
I don't think you are a white knight and I don't see why people get so confrontational over 40k, but its really unclear how Warp Talons are usable. 3 attacks, even with reroll wounds and AP-2, just isn't good enough for 24 points. I don't think they would be much better at say 22 points. At the same time they are mortal wound bait, and really die to any large number of low/no AP shots/punches.

Really the bitterness over all this is we through Psychic Awakening was effectively "40k 8.5", and its looking like that's only the case for Marines. Which is unsurprisingly further embittering, given how many people think its Marines versus everyone else (even if Marines were quite rubbish for about 18 months outside of Guilliman buff blobs).

This is a good post, which gives some explanation and opportunities to discuss the point. Just saying "You are wrong. Stop posting, white knight" is not.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Looks fake. Stoke the nails makes no sense.

"Kill! Maim! Burn" -> the wording is suspect. Isn't it usually stated as "Maim! Kill! Burn!"

No, it's been "Kill! Maim! Burn!" since forever.

I wrote that in response to what Slayer-Fan123 wrote to Daedalus81's statement about Warp Talons. You might disagree, but I'm with Daedalus81 here. Dismissing someone's valid opinion with a one liner that includes accusation of "white knighting" is bordering on "Posts that contain profanity, insults, blatant attempts at baiting a flame war (trolling), racial slurs, etc. will be locked, edited or deleted.". I really wish you could understand my position better.

No, there is no other interpretation here,
firstly: You quoted Karol, NOT Slayer.

Secondly: Your statement is general and understood in, "if you can't or don't want to write a MASSIVE foundation your opinion is invalid." Out of hand dismissal is something slayer does aswell, just sitting on the other side of the same coin doesn't make your position beeing on another coin.

The correct statement and action would've been to alert a mod, and or questioning why he assumes Daedalus is supposedly a white knight, (which btw considering the start of this thread and this :

Is nonsense.)

Do i believe Daedalus is too optimistic.
I don't know? Probably.
Do i believe this will solve the real issues the CSM dex has? Nope.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Looks fake. Stoke the nails makes no sense.

"Kill! Maim! Burn" -> the wording is suspect. Isn't it usually stated as "Maim! Kill! Burn!"

No, it's been "Kill! Maim! Burn!" since forever.

Maim kill burn is how they say it in Dawn of War, I think. Otherwise yeah it's Kill Maim Burn.

I quoted Karol because his statement was the last one regarding that discussion point. If you check my past postings, you will see that I usually quote the last post only to keep the quotation short and readable.
If you understood it as me trouncing Karol, then I should have made it more clear. I don't had the feeling from his response that he felt like that.

My statement is a general one, because something like "Your response need to be x words long in case A; can be somewhere between z and x long in case B; can be... to be considered as a meaningful contribution to the thread" is silly and impossible.
Your response does not have to be massive, just something like

"No it really does not make them interesting. Can you stop white knighting for a moment?"

is not helpful.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I quoted Karol because his statement was the last one regarding that discussion point. If you check my past postings, you will see that I usually quote the last post only to keep the quotation short and readable.
If you understood it as me trouncing Karol, then I should have made it more clear. I don't had the feeling from his response that he felt like that.

My statement is a general one, because something like "Your response need to be x words long in case A; can be somewhere between z and x long in case B; can be... to be considered as a meaningful contribution to the thread" is silly and impossible.
Your response does not have to be massive, just something like

"No it really does not make them interesting. Can you stop white knighting for a moment?"

is not helpful.

Well it doesn't make warptalons work, albeit the later part is just insult.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It is.

It's really not, but this dials in with the rest of your farcical beliefs about this game, so I guess I'm not surprised.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
But of course if that's how people have fun I can't tell them they're doing it wrong.

Thanks, your opinion has been noted.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So bt got a supplement, a real one, one that makes them monoviable.

I think CSM actually has much better support for assault. There's no way that BT Litanies are going to outperform CSM Sorcerers. Their super doctrine (auto wounds on 6's after charge/intervention during assault doctrine) is fairly marginal. Their Relic is nice but it's only S +1 and has no way to deal with Invul saves. And of course Overwatch is a big issue, they have the Land Raider stratagem but keeping a LR alive until T3 is no joke.

How well would they really do if restricted to Tac Marines, Terminators, Land Raiders and classic units like Predator tanks and Dreadnoughts? I'd be skeptical that the supplement would let them compete against the Primaris range.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I think CSM actually has much better support for assault. There's no way that BT Litanies are going to outperform CSM Sorcerers. Their super doctrine (auto wounds on 6's after charge/intervention during assault doctrine) is fairly marginal. Their Relic is nice but it's only S +1 and has no way to deal with Invul saves. And of course Overwatch is a big issue, they have the Land Raider stratagem but keeping a LR alive until T3 is no joke.

ROFL

BT are vastly superior. They're basically better World Eaters. Their chapter tactic is going to be just fine, especially with a prayer that adds attacks, furthermore, any prayer that adds any bonus to hit is going to double how often it activates. So, I don't think it's crappy when fully a third of your attacks auto-hit/auto-wound. If they get some way to put a unit in Assault Doc on turn 2 (which is not unlikely), they're golden. They're better at resisting psychic powers than WE also.

Maybe you can find a story reason why they suck.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Their chapter tactic is going to be just fine, especially with a prayer that adds attacks, furthermore, any prayer that adds any bonus to hit is going to double how often it activates.

Isn't that just Prescience, DttFE and the Butcher's Nails trait?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Isn't that just Prescience, DttFE and the Butcher's Nails trait?

Prescience has a 50% chance to activate unless you spend CP, prayers have a 66.7% chance to activate. Also, World Eaters don't carry psykers, not sure you read that part of the story.

DttFE only works against Imperium, BT works against everyone, also, it doesn't auto-wound.

Butcher's nails requires delivery, something BT do much better that WE currently.

Berzerkers have never been bad this edition, delivery and survival has always been the problem.

Any Sorcerer with +1 to cast pushes your odds to 72%. If you're being competitive you're running Ahriman.

Anyway, regarding running WE as a mono-legion, it's pointless to think about until we see more of their Stratagems.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Any Sorcerer with +1 to cast pushes your odds to 72%. If you're being competitive you're running Ahriman.

Anyway, regarding running WE as a mono-legion, it's pointless to think about until we see more of their Stratagems.

But what about the story? WE and Ahriman running together, that seems like it's against the RP.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which still adds to the discussion.

And considering the FB page, there are a lot of angry people here, People unhappy with the state GW is in, in terms of design.

And it is perfectly valid, just because you deem them not adding anything to the discussion, is solely a YOU issue.

And again YOU are not the sole arbitrator as to WHAT is deemed "adding to the discussion".

I wrote that in response to what Slayer-Fan123 wrote to Daedalus81's statement about Warp Talons. You might disagree, but I'm with Daedalus81 here. Dismissing someone's valid opinion with a one liner that includes accusation of "white knighting" is bordering on "Posts that contain profanity, insults, blatant attempts at baiting a flame war (trolling), racial slurs, etc. will be locked, edited or deleted.". I really wish you could understand my position better.

[

frankly if I was a mod I'd look at any post that contained a accusation of white knighting as a personal attack. because thats what it is it immediatly dismisses someone's argument as just a empty defence etc.

and is almost always used when someone is told to be rational and logical about their latest hyperbolic temper tantrum