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BrianDavion wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which still adds to the discussion.

And considering the FB page, there are a lot of angry people here, People unhappy with the state GW is in, in terms of design.

And it is perfectly valid, just because you deem them not adding anything to the discussion, is solely a YOU issue.

And again YOU are not the sole arbitrator as to WHAT is deemed "adding to the discussion".

I wrote that in response to what Slayer-Fan123 wrote to Daedalus81's statement about Warp Talons. You might disagree, but I'm with Daedalus81 here. Dismissing someone's valid opinion with a one liner that includes accusation of "white knighting" is bordering on "Posts that contain profanity, insults, blatant attempts at baiting a flame war (trolling), racial slurs, etc. will be locked, edited or deleted.". I really wish you could understand my position better.

[

frankly if I was a mod I'd look at any post that contained a accusation of white knighting as a personal attack. because thats what it is it immediatly dismisses someone's argument as just a empty defence etc.

and is almost always used when someone is told to be rational and logical about their latest hyperbolic temper tantrum

Defending a bad unit like that and defending GW for it should just be dismissed, don't care. It's bad enough CSM players need to deal with the crap in their codex, and to be told "actually no things are cool" is a load of crap itself.

Anyone defending the CSM codex is a white knight for GW, period. There's no excuse at this point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Defending a bad unit like that and defending GW for it should just be dismissed, don't care. It's bad enough CSM players need to deal with the crap in their codex, and to be told "actually no things are cool" is a load of crap itself.

Anyone defending the CSM codex is a white knight for GW, period. There's no excuse at this point.

But we got a new psyker model, you know, to go along with SM being able to bump their Psychic Hood bonus out to 24".

Apparently we're all good.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
But what about the story? WE and Ahriman running together, that seems like it's against the RP.

Sure.

Is it fluffy to have Guard, Sisters and Imperial Fists in the same army? Absolutely. But players who want to leverage the new SM rules to win would be reducing their competitive advantage. That's why focusing on the purely competitive aspects of the game inevitably squeezes out a lot of the fun, flavour and diversity.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
But what about the story? WE and Ahriman running together, that seems like it's against the RP.

Sure.

Is it fluffy to have Guard, Sisters and Imperial Fists in the same army? Absolutely. But players who want to leverage the new SM rules to win would be reducing their competitive advantage. That's why focusing on the purely competitive aspects of the game inevitably squeezes out a lot of the fun, flavour and diversity.

I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

lol, WB is flavor country! The legion that only deserves to live in fan-fiction currently, so much flavor...

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
But what about the story? WE and Ahriman running together, that seems like it's against the RP.

Sure.

Is it fluffy to have Guard, Sisters and Imperial Fists in the same army? Absolutely. But players who want to leverage the new SM rules to win would be reducing their competitive advantage. That's why focusing on the purely competitive aspects of the game inevitably squeezes out a lot of the fun, flavour and diversity.

I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

I can think of a word to describe it's favour but the admins wouldn't like it if I used it.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

It's the same as ATSKNF, and reduced morale losses IS a big part of the character of SM. They're supposed to be resilient and not run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New content in PA2 for SM btw.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

It's the same as ATSKNF, and reduced morale losses IS a big part of the character of SM. They're supposed to be resilient and not run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New content in PA2 for SM btw.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

Mhm, you also know what, csm don't get ATSNKF, only WB, as a trait.

BT are almost certainly going to be a stronger army than WE, barring some unforseen pants-on-head powerful stratagem for WE. Whether this is the same as being a competitively viable mono-army remains to be seen.

I play both of them, so I'm double-winning rules-wise.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

It's the same as ATSKNF, and reduced morale losses IS a big part of the character of SM. They're supposed to be resilient and not run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New content in PA2 for SM btw.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

Well isn't that lovely. Glad to see gw is finally paying some attention to this historically underrepresented faction.

I see the comment section is as entertaining as yesterday at least. I don't play either faction, so I have no horse in the race. I just find the comments very entertaining.

Yeah it is kind of fun

I don't think layering special rules on special rules is good for the game though. Even if you eventually dial down everything so the factions are relatively balanced, too many rules exceptions is bad design.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's the same as ATSKNF, and reduced morale losses IS a big part of the character of SM.

Do you actually read the rules or do you just say what you want them to be? Because they're not the same. It appears they're just the same in your head.

Yoyoyo wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

Yes, so now their Chaplains are objectively superior to Dark Apostles in every way.

Librarians are superior to Sorcerers in most ways.

Chapter champion is, well, something CSM don't have, period.

But we're getting a new Sorcerer model...I mean, I've only got a dozen different Sorcerers painted up, why not line up one more jackhole to get denied.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's the same as ATSKNF, and reduced morale losses IS a big part of the character of SM.

Do you actually read the rules or do you just say what you want them to be? Because they're not the same. It appears they're just the same in your head.

Yoyoyo wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/space-marines-why-you-need-faith-furygw-homepage-post-3/

Yes, so now their Chaplains are objectively superior to Dark Apostles in every way.

Librarians are superior to Sorcerers in most ways.

Chapter champion is, well, something CSM don't have, period.

But we're getting a new Sorcerer model...I mean, I've only got a dozen different Sorcerers painted up, why not line up one more jackhole to get denied.

At fething 24 range. Just one more way c:sm can out range everyone else.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
At fething 24 range. Just one more way c:sm can out range everyone else.

I think the one that really gets me right now is the whole Dark Apostle/Chaplain discrepancy. It's like CSM got prayers first only to be completely upstaged by SM.

CSM: 'We got prayers to our dark gods, it's going to be super-sweet!'
SM: 'Hold my beer.'

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

That's easy.
The Word Bearers are the most organised of the traitor legions - because there is nothing as bureaucratic as organised religion. Therefore they should have "big" squads rather than the traditional MSU. In game terms these should benefit more from stratagems - and in turn, they are spared the downside of having big squads, which is morale, by their chapter tactic.

Unfortunately in practice the game benefit of a reroll on morale is negligible in the extreme, and there are not enough stratagems - or ways to get bags of command points - that "take big squads" is a rational choice.
So realistically you have say Alpha Legion, which makes models... 25% tougher, 33% tougher against shooting outside 12".
And here you have "if your army is such you should only be taking morale on a 6 you can now reroll that dice, but its probably not going to come up very often."
Except morale would be less of an issue if you had just taken AL in the first place, so just take AL what are you doing.

Maybe there is loads of stuff we have not seen, but it looks like WB were bad, and are remaining bottom tier. It looks like some of the other chapters at least get something - which will be nice to use on softer tables.
But barring fairly dramatic changes in CA I don't see CSM standing up to any of the Marine Chapters. Basic CSM should go down to 10-11 points. Does anyone see it happening?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
At fething 24 range. Just one more way c:sm can out range everyone else.

I think the one that really gets me right now is the whole Dark Apostle/Chaplain discrepancy. It's like CSM got prayers first only to be completely upstaged by SM.

CSM: 'We got prayers to our dark gods, it's going to be super-sweet!'
SM: 'Hold my beer.'

Yeah that's the one that hacks me off the most as well.

Already had plans for a super da.

The Word Bearers trait should be that you can only lose one model from morale checks or something - re-rolls are worthless in the case of CSM squads, since they should either be run as 5 man units with whatever that assault cannon is called or a las-cannon, or simply not at all.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
At fething 24 range. Just one more way c:sm can out range everyone else.

I think the one that really gets me right now is the whole Dark Apostle/Chaplain discrepancy. It's like CSM got prayers first only to be completely upstaged by SM.

CSM: 'We got prayers to our dark gods, it's going to be super-sweet!'
SM: 'Hold my beer.'

Yeah that's the one that hacks me off the most as well.

Already had plans for a super da.

CSM cast more reliably, but the point cost is WAY out of whack and now casting 3 smothers that reliability.

@CSM Players

It seems you got a lot of new HQ options and improvements even though you already have good HQs, but no new options or improvements for Chapter Tactics.

Meanwhile, DE got new Chapter Tactic equivalents even though they already had good ones, any no HQ options/improvements even though their HQs are abysmal.

Perhaps we could arrange a trade of sorts?

Biasn wrote:
WE stratagem leak

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/dwqb52/world_eaters_stratagem_leak/

Seems the images were deleted before I could see. What did I miss?

 vipoid wrote:
@CSM Players

It seems you got a lot of new HQ options and improvements even though you already have good HQs, but no new options or improvements for Chapter Tactics.

Meanwhile, DE got new Chapter Tactic equivalents even though they already had good ones, any no HQ options/improvements even though their HQs are abysmal.

Perhaps we could arrange a trade of sorts?

Lots of new HQ options? You're not serious are you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lots of new HQ options? You're not serious are you?

Hey, I think he might be on to something, we were given different piles of gak, combined together we might make a brick to throw at a marine or two.

 vipoid wrote:
@CSM Players

It seems you got a lot of new HQ options and improvements even though you already have good HQs, but no new options or improvements for Chapter Tactics.

Meanwhile, DE got new Chapter Tactic equivalents even though they already had good ones, any no HQ options/improvements even though their HQs are abysmal.

Perhaps we could arrange a trade of sorts?

Yes, half the traits and stratagems for build a FUNCTIONING fething BASE TRAIT.

Sounds good?

Tyel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like you to spin the WB trait out as flavour.

That's easy.
The Word Bearers are the most organised of the traitor legions - because there is nothing as bureaucratic as organised religion. Therefore they should have "big" squads rather than the traditional MSU. In game terms these should benefit more from stratagems - and in turn, they are spared the downside of having big squads, which is morale, by their chapter tactic.

Unfortunately in practice the game benefit of a reroll on morale is negligible in the extreme

It's not just negligible, and it doesn't spare WBs the downside of having big squads, as it can easily do you more harm than good. They have been described in every codex (and other texts like IA) as being utterly unwilling to take a single step back, e.g. 8th ed:

This unshakeable creed sees them marching towards certain death as often as glorious victory, yet regardless of the carnage around them, they remain unwilling to take a single step back

They really need the "no more than one model can flee from a unit" rule at the absolute bare minimum in addition to an optional re-roll to reflect this.

CSM players: Can we have an upgraded Warpsmith?

GW: We have upgraded Warpsmiths at home

Poisoned Metacanticle. Warpsmith model only, can at the end of combat do 4 extra attacks with this weapon. Any successful hits cause 1MW in addition to any other damage. S1 AP-

We already have an upgraded warpsmith. It's called a Hellwright.

Not one that heals a flat 3 damage as a permanent stratagem

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not one that heals a flat 3 damage as a permanent stratagem

No we got an 18 inch combo for that....

Ironically the subfaction with strict archetype mostprofiting From that can't do it

On a serious note, i feel like this has officially entered the state of bs.

The SM stuff, yes.

CSM is actually in the place where the game should be -- some cool traits, some fun stratagems, not trying to stack 3-4 layers of rules interactions on top of each other to break the game.

I understand SM envy but that's a design misstep. Too many rules interactions becomes like playing solitaire instead of move-countermove which is the path to fun and interactive design.