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As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

pm713 wrote:
What's significantly different about 6th? What makes that the ideal ruleset to base a new game on?

The main thing is that it got the general balance right. Not in terms of game balance, though that was as decent as GW games ever get, but in terms of just the product. Armies were large, but not too large. No one section of the army list dominated all the others in the way that characters did in 5th or huge blocks of infantry and deathstar units did in 8th. Prices weren't cheap(GW has never been cheap), but they were affordable enough for a kid to buy-in over a period of time with their pocket money, and for older customers to own multiple armies. The setting had matured from being only one giant knowing wink, but hadn't yet jumped the shark and become the utterly po-faced self-regarding bore that was 8th/ET.

It wasn't perfect by any means, but it's the best foundation for a new edition IMO, especially one seeking to address the problems that led to WHFB's downfall. I started in the middle of 4th, so it's not just a case of "this is the version I know" either. IME and speaking in generalities, Oldhammer people gravitate towards 3rd, Middlehammer people gravitate towards 6th, and people who started in 8th tend to stick with 8th(or go 9th Age if they were big tournament types). Given 8th was the deathknell for WHFB, I don't think it's the best foundation for a new version.

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

Also, yeah, that. If they're going to do a small scale game the least they could do is remake the one they already did in 10mm, but making an explicit pitch for people's nostalgiabucks and then busting out an entirely new scale will guarantee this is stillborn.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think early 6th edition was just the most fun the game ever was, for a variety of reasons. You had regiments of around 16-20 troops which were more manageable on the tabletop than the huge hordes of 8th edition, normal infantry and cavalry were the core of the game, and heroes and magic were more like fantasy flavour on the core game. Monsters were scary but could be managed with good tactics. The size of the game was more reasonable.
There were issues of course, but to my mind, the game was the best it ever was in that period (for reference, I played 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th editions.

I think as a game, Kings of War was a better successor than 8th edition, but if you want old school old world, 6th is the best. (7th was not that different, but it had issues due to some of the army books being unbalanced).

6th was my favourite edition also, didn't need huge blocks of 50+, most units were 15-30 strong. The 50+ unit requirements are a contributing factor to why WFB died IMO, a single unit was more models to buy/paint than most AOS or 40k armies are now.

I wonder if GW will use WOTR style movement trays for the Old World. I know they announced this with the whole 'square base' thing, but it would allow cross-play between AOS and this system, in the same way WOTR did. It would allow for smaller unit sizes closer to AOS or 4th edition WHFB.

I would like it if they would make the game based on unit footprint rather than individual model footprint, as that would allow people to use whatever bases they like. Given how mad and inconsistent GW has been with basing recently that would be the only sane choice. 32mm WOTR style bases would have a very large footprint on the table, is my main issue with them.

There is no world in which this game can use models sculpted for AoS. They just don't rank up. And they're not going to make alternate sculpts of the same models they already have in 28mm. Ergo, it will be a different scale.

Perhaps they will just put older sculpts available as direct order only?

I would genuinely be surprised if it was a different scale.

Most of the models they've made for AoS don't exist in WFB, so it's largely a non-issue.

Though even during WFB, there were units that didn't rank up well (chaos Knights...) so it's hardly a game stopping issue.

A different scale, yeah, no. That just doesn't fly, since the only sales pitch they have for this thing so far is stomping the nostalgia button.
And the one thing they've shown off is a base for their 'heroic 28mm' scale

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There is no world in which this game can use models sculpted for AoS. They just don't rank up. And they're not going to make alternate sculpts of the same models they already have in 28mm. Ergo, it will be a different scale.

They don't rank up on square bases, most do on round bases, hence why WOTR-style trays would make sense, if the plan is to allow models to be used in both systems.

One way to fix this is to not have standard base sizes but to supply a range of appropriate bases. A bit like in AoS the base doesnt matter. So its swings and roundabouts with advantages for smaller and larger bases. Larger bases mean a wider frontal spread, smaller bases mean more troops end up under templates.
If GW supply 20,25 and 30mm square bases people can use whatever fits. Rectangular bases can be similarly apportioned.
Now the rules for Look Out Sir must allow for a class of bases to be used and count as same. So you can fit a hero on a larger base and add him to a unit corner and get full Look Out Sir.

This is one of many ways we can handle the change, and it fits with current thinking at GW studio.

If they were going to do 15mm, they would bring back Warmaster, which was a pretty good game.

pm713 wrote:
What's significantly different about 6th? What makes that the ideal ruleset to base a new game on?

there was the army list supplement that got all factions on (more or less) the same level
it was the sweetspot with focus on troops without being too large and heroes being between fighter and support
and the actually play tested the whole thing, which was not done any more later on

there were also flaws, but they could be easy corrected by adding some rules from 7th and 8th

for a starting point it is very good because everything is already there and it just needs adjustments

starting with 8th as a base would be rather difficult in comparison because not all factions got an 8th Edition Army book and some got their large monster that was one of the key features in 8th years later in AoS.
so a lot of work would be needed to bring all the armies on the same level (and decide which one it is) before you can start adjusting the rules and solve problems

half expecting either the WotR style trays or something closer to Kings of War where its the 'unit' that matters, though probably with more stylised unit movement trays, all that really matters is frontage and a way of tracking wounds

Most basic infantry is on 32mm now, that's 6 models on a tray that used to fit 20. I don't think GW will go for selling you 60% less models.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I know we'll just theorycraft in circles, but I sincerely believe this will be a 15mm(ish) game using roughly 6th Edition WHFB rules. I think it is about the only way to make it viable from a production and profit stand-point.

Anything else would require it being a proper third-pillar game for them.

No, it won't. This is a move to undercut KOW and gain some of that money that GW felt they left lying on the counter when they World Of Warcrafted Fantasy. None of that smacks of "new scale".

pm713 wrote:What's significantly different about 6th? What makes that the ideal ruleset to base a new game on?

The balance was fine tuned from the start. Armies were balanced off of each other right off the bat and didn't get knocked out of whack until Army Book Creep set in. Three house rules from 7th make it damn near perfect.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

They'd be attempting to sell you a totally different scale of game, which necessitates a totally different scale of terrain, which then in turn will necessitate a totally different mechanic all the way across.

No, they won't do it at a different scale.

lord_blackfang wrote:There is no world in which this game can use models sculpted for AoS. They just don't rank up. And they're not going to make alternate sculpts of the same models they already have in 28mm. Ergo, it will be a different scale.

OR

They will make some sprue combination that feeds the bulk of an army right off the bat, and can be used for most of the unit builds. Maximize investment while keeping variety a thing.

What they WON'T do is make it a different scale.

Smellingsalts wrote:If they were going to do 15mm, they would bring back Warmaster, which was a pretty good game.

So good it sat on shelves netting a significant enough loss for GW that their first extremely disproportionate price hike happened shortly after they finally stuck a fork in Warmaster.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I wish someone would edit the the topic title to get rid of the stupid woooot in effffff etc .

No one actually knows beyond a few at GW HQ.

Most of the predictions now will go on to live alongside the hard plastic blood bowl pitch, 28mm inquisitor game, plastic thunder hawks from multiple years , reissued plastic original Marines etc

I hope the new thread title is less stupid for you...

I never expected my ramblings to spark so many discussions. Its been very interesting seeing what people would like to see from GW.

I still honestly think it will be some sort of ruleset ala 6th ed but based around maybe War of the bear or the time of Sundering.
Back when humies were no better than apes

It's a marketing angle that GW had, the equivalent of a new hat for "Malibu Stacey", to try and deflect attention away from 3d ed. KoW. It's not going to be in a different scale, it's likely to incorporate the old style bases, but I don't think it's going to be anything revolutionary. The fact that people are guessing as to what it might be in excited hushed tones does highlight how badly they destroyed WHFB, and how much longing there is to have things back as they were.

Frankly, I don't think there is any real going back, and I think this will end up more an exercise in nostalgia squeezing people for money than any kind of fantastic system we'll be playing 3 years post this release.

You gotta have dreams bro...

 Fenriswulf wrote:
It's a marketing angle that GW had, the equivalent of a new hat for "Malibu Stacey", to try and deflect attention away from 3d ed. KoW. It's not going to be in a different scale, it's likely to incorporate the old style bases, but I don't think it's going to be anything revolutionary. The fact that people are guessing as to what it might be in excited hushed tones does highlight how badly they destroyed WHFB, and how much longing there is to have things back as they were.

Frankly, I don't think there is any real going back, and I think this will end up more an exercise in nostalgia squeezing people for money than any kind of fantastic system we'll be playing 3 years post this release.

I remember when people were saying AOS would be dead and gone before the first year was up. Then the second year, Then... well, you get the point. People played WFB for over 30 years before GW did AOS, the only thing that changed is GW themselves making it harder for people to start up.

I think this will end up more an exercise in nostalgia squeezing people for money

What, a corporation releases a product aimed at nostalgia baiting old players and not a True Passion Project? Shocking.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
It's a marketing angle that GW had, the equivalent of a new hat for "Malibu Stacey", to try and deflect attention away from 3d ed. KoW. It's not going to be in a different scale, it's likely to incorporate the old style bases, but I don't think it's going to be anything revolutionary. The fact that people are guessing as to what it might be in excited hushed tones does highlight how badly they destroyed WHFB, and how much longing there is to have things back as they were.

Frankly, I don't think there is any real going back, and I think this will end up more an exercise in nostalgia squeezing people for money than any kind of fantastic system we'll be playing 3 years post this release.

I think this is more indicative of GW wanting to keep profits high and stock performance up by recapturing a customer segment they lost to other other companies. Its.longevity and health will correspond to how correct they were in its profitability

 Argive wrote:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I wish someone would edit the the topic title to get rid of the stupid woooot in effffff etc .

No one actually knows beyond a few at GW HQ.

Most of the predictions now will go on to live alongside the hard plastic blood bowl pitch, 28mm inquisitor game, plastic thunder hawks from multiple years , reissued plastic original Marines etc

I hope the new thread title is less stupid for you...

To be honest I wish all the rumour thread posts were just the factual title so it’s easier to navigate.
“Warhammer The Old World. Square Bases. Rumour/Theory Thread”

I don’t know why AoS is in the title as it’s nothing to do with it, as with the madness bit.
But it’s better at least.


Anyway, since this thread started it had all the maybe different scale, maybe it will rank, and then cost discussion.
Looks like we are just gonna circle all this for three years

I think there is No Way it’s a different scale, otherwise showing the base, and harking back to older players etc was irrelevant.
Using AoS models, I mean maybe, but it will be such a limited amount of stuff, as AoS moves forward and becomes more fantastical particularly, it’s just moving too far from the models that would work in both.
But for the ones that can work in both settings, certainly we could see them start to put out kits that look slightly more rankable (even though they won’t show that side of it, we may notice it a bit)

Most people I know loved Warmaster, but didnt want to invest in it because it was a different scale, which meant needing different scale terrain.

I do concur it sat on the shelves. I had four armies and for our campaign people often used my models because they didn't want to buy another game system after already owning a whfb army, but we had a lot of participation in our campaigns way back in the day.

I also seriously doubt they are going a different scale. If anything they are going to do like HH and the models will be same scale and have the ability to be in both of their game systems.

We also don't know anything about how the game operates. My gut would be a WOTR basing structure as well. That is what a lot of games have moved to these days.

WHFB 6th is what many consider to be the best because it didn't encourage skew builds with the mostly cav builds of 7th edition (at least at competitive level, tournament whfb was this all the way up to the GT level as I played that religiously) or the mega blob infantry death stars of 8th edition, and out of the gate it had the Ravening Hordes book which put ALL armies on the same footing across the board. The only time in the history of the game in the past 25 years that that was ever a thing. As army books were introduced, the sweet sweet GW power creep took place that we all know and demand for, and the rest is history but for those three or so years from 2000 - 2003 the game was at the peak of its balance and most every army was viable and came down to how you played it on the table as opposed to how good you were with Excel.

Danny76 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I wish someone would edit the the topic title to get rid of the stupid woooot in effffff etc .

No one actually knows beyond a few at GW HQ.

Most of the predictions now will go on to live alongside the hard plastic blood bowl pitch, 28mm inquisitor game, plastic thunder hawks from multiple years , reissued plastic original Marines etc

I hope the new thread title is less stupid for you...

To be honest I wish all the rumour thread posts were just the factual title so it’s easier to navigate.
“Warhammer The Old World. Square Bases. Rumour/Theory Thread”

I don’t know why AoS is in the title as it’s nothing to do with it, as with the madness bit.
But it’s better at least.


Anyway, since this thread started it had all the maybe different scale, maybe it will rank, and then cost discussion.
Looks like we are just gonna circle all this for three years

I think there is No Way it’s a different scale, otherwise showing the base, and harking back to older players etc was irrelevant.
Using AoS models, I mean maybe, but it will be such a limited amount of stuff, as AoS moves forward and becomes more fantastical particularly, it’s just moving too far from the models that would work in both.
But for the ones that can work in both settings, certainly we could see them start to put out kits that look slightly more rankable (even though they won’t show that side of it, we may notice it a bit)

I think because cross over between the two systems might well be plausible if its the same scale and anything like 30k & 40k. I dont think GW would ever miss an opportunity to sell things. Also... coz fun..

And all the stuff we have now that fits in the Old World sure, but there’s been a few comments of seeing Stormcast turn up and all that, I just think it’s overboard, though maybe they’re just trolling for reaction.
Not in the last few pages anyway, I guess as with everything the discussion settles after a while..

So far all GW has said is "its set in the old world; like horus heresy is to 40K" and they showed a picture of a single square base for the original game.

Basically everything else since then is people guessing and giving wild rumours and suchlike. GW has said nothing about changing scale; stormcast; the age in which its set; factions to appear; gameplay; materials; style of game etc....

 Overread wrote:
So far all GW has said is "its set in the old world; like horus heresy is to 40K" and they showed a picture of a single square base for the original game.
Basically everything else since then is people guessing and giving wild rumours and suchlike. GW has said nothing about changing scale; stormcast; the age in which its set; factions to appear; gameplay; materials; style of game etc....

They probably want to read our comments before deciding on those things.

 kodos wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What's significantly different about 6th? What makes that the ideal ruleset to base a new game on?

there was the army list supplement that got all factions on (more or less) the same level
it was the sweetspot with focus on troops without being too large and heroes being between fighter and support
and the actually play tested the whole thing, which was not done any more later on

there were also flaws, but they could be easy corrected by adding some rules from 7th and 8th

for a starting point it is very good because everything is already there and it just needs adjustments

starting with 8th as a base would be rather difficult in comparison because not all factions got an 8th Edition Army book and some got their large monster that was one of the key features in 8th years later in AoS.
so a lot of work would be needed to bring all the armies on the same level (and decide which one it is) before you can start adjusting the rules and solve problems

Ah I see.

Personally I think having smaller armies as the standard is better. It's much easier (at least for me) to play with bigger than average armies than smaller ones if you want to change things up.

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I hope all WHFB players have the same attitude as you :*