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 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat

So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.

Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.

pm713 wrote:
and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.

But . . . why?

Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.

Other humans can afford to be lazy, kislevites lived literally next to Chaos iirc. Elves don't because they spend much more time becoming mages but become much better mages as a result. (Or they just don't bother because they suck).

Because people don't always make sense? It's not impossible to me that you can be regarded as important but as a result of being a guard rather being important in spite of it.

pm713 wrote:
Other humans can afford to be lazy, kislevites lived literally next to Chaos iirc.

So do Dark Elves, except the other elves are just as much of a threat as Chaos is lol.

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat

So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.

What? High Elf mages are normally competent in combat, represente by units like the Loremaster.
And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp). And yeah, heroes aren't whole units but as others have pointed out, the lack of fantastic things in fantasy had nothing to do with the feel of the game and more that GW could not made those things in plastic. Just look at 8th. People call it a departure. I believe it was just GW being able to do what they always wanted but could not. I mean demigryphs are too magical but khorne bezerkers mounting demonic cyborg-bulls isnt.


Kislev, a faction with a very old lore about having complete cabals of ice witchs has a ROYAL GUARD of women with ice powers. Is really not that far streetched. Yeah, is not the most typical kind of unit for humans in Fantasy , and not the one I would have used as the first to announce, but as I assume a rare, limied and elite unit it has nothing wrong with it.

Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?

If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic. GW couldn't even develop their own design right, the dummies. Oh, and stegadon has only meat-cutting teeth, despite being too slow and bulky to actually be a predator, if we're talking about how unrealistic the Lizardmen are. Fortunately, they're just magical made up things with zero bearing on real animals, so it doesn't matter.

 Galas wrote:
And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).

They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.

Cronch wrote:
If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic.

Again you forgot half of the word! You missed the lizard part this time!
Lizardman. Lizard. Man.
There are two parts in this word, one is lizard and the other is man.
Try to remember both at once!!

 Dreamchild wrote:

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.

See arctic cable-backed bows: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-backed_bow

Yeah, only these are obviously unstrung. If the gals in question end up having proper Hunnic/Tatar/Turkic bows I'd be over the roof, but as things are they visually are the closest to compound bows with no compound elements - with those two usleless spiky things added with no practical or aesthetic value.

You can see the strings in the picture...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

I'll be honest, I'm also not a fan of the clothes. The top right image doesn't look too bad, but masks shown in the full picture and middle-right look very strange. Maybe it's just the art but they come across as being far too thin for winter clothes. If anything, they look more like some sort of ice-burkas. Also, apparently a benefit of being a Royal Guard is that you can accumulate an ungodly number of belts and straps. Seriously, imagine having to fasten and tighten all those straps, in freezing weather and whilst wearing mittens.

TL: DR I'm not opposed to the basic concept but the execution seems rather janky. Still, I appreciate that this is just concept art, so hopefully most of these issues will be amended before production.

I think those are supposed to be veils. At least that's the first impression I got from them.

Holy poop I’m thankful I can still enjoy new things!

You guys really need a hobby....lol

Ah, so Warhammer: Old World is going to look just like Age of Sigmar...

Okay then.

Lol, little early for doom and gloom ,no?

How about cautious pessimism?

 BertBert wrote:
How about cautious pessimism?

If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
How about cautious pessimism?

If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.

I would settle for that, no problem

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Kislev was always ruled by a Ice Queen though. So having a cadre of elite ice magic wielding warrior women makes sense thematically, a lot like how Alarielle had a cadre of magic bow wielding handmaidens under her command.

I'm sure we'll get our Cossack Bear Cavalry soon, don't worry.

Historically the Handmaidens of the Everqueen were just elite statted Lothern Sea Guard. No magic weapons, just a banner. They didn't get their Flaming Magic Crossbows Of Magical Flames until GW decided to channel its inner WOW.

Jackal90 wrote:If people react this heavily to something that’s actually fluffy and has previously been in their setting before, I want GW to go full on Disney.

I’d love to see a few ice golems to trigger people a bit more.



One thing I’ve never understood is peoples inability to show any reason towards others opinions.
Everyone has a different view on every army (good, bad or neutral)
Only on the internet do you see people bash others because they don’t like the same thing.
It’s almost as if some people don’t realise that everyone has their own opinions on design.

I also like how far some people are willing to go just to put someone down on liking an army that they don’t.
Makes it far easier to just find people of this nature and block them.

The irony of this post is that it does the VERY THING it bitches at others for doing...

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.

Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!

 Irbis wrote:
not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so

Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?

Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.

For a short time Tzeentch Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions. They fixed it in 7th.


All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
How about cautious pessimism?

If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.

You give them too much credit on the playtesting front

Do any of you really expect that they will leave the Old World as it was?
Not only will these have their freezing ice swords of destruction, they will also be one toe perched on some icicles

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
How about cautious pessimism?

If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.

Blind, excessive optimism that you think they will be playtested at all.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
How about cautious pessimism?

If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to back from the printers.

Slight correction.

Enh, personally? I mostly just don't like the weapons because they're generic fantasy ugly, with the bits and bobs of ice and weird not-especially useful forks and stuff in them (really, its mostly the bow and the right side polearm). Whoever mentioned Skyrim magic stuff, yeah, thats pretty much the vibe I get, and frankly, I kinda don't like the look, especially for factions that aren't chaos. 2nd look, I can kinda see the rest working, honestly, but just "please not that" on the bow/arrow/weird fork thingy.

Edit: Also kinda don't like the expansion of "combat mages" they're going for, given what a big deal armored casting was for stuff like the Tzeench Sorcerer and the general aesthetics, but that barn is long burned and the horse moved to Florida.

Wasn't Warhammer Old World pretty generic fantasy for its day?

Deep down it's still the same old Games Workshop producing the same kind of stuff as it's always done. Garbage in, garbage out. I have zero faith in Old World being any more coherently designed or respectful of its antecedents in terms of visual identity as the frankly insulting clown-convention that is Age of Sigmar.

Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?

Like really, out of curiosity since I feel I'm poking the bear here:
GW is the final arbiter on what is and isn't part of the Old World. They will have designs and concepts dating back decades for material that never made it to print or sculpt. To decry them for expanding a niche faction without having any context of the broader picture (no you do not know everything about the Old World, stop assuming you do).
This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?

So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Dreamchild wrote:

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.

See arctic cable-backed bows: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-backed_bow

Yeah, only these are obviously unstrung. If the gals in question end up having proper Hunnic/Tatar/Turkic bows I'd be over the roof, but as things are they visually are the closest to compound bows with no compound elements - with those two usleless spiky things added with no practical or aesthetic value.

You can see the strings in the picture...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

I'll be honest, I'm also not a fan of the clothes. The top right image doesn't look too bad, but masks shown in the full picture and middle-right look very strange. Maybe it's just the art but they come across as being far too thin for winter clothes. If anything, they look more like some sort of ice-burkas. Also, apparently a benefit of being a Royal Guard is that you can accumulate an ungodly number of belts and straps. Seriously, imagine having to fasten and tighten all those straps, in freezing weather and whilst wearing mittens.

TL: DR I'm not opposed to the basic concept but the execution seems rather janky. Still, I appreciate that this is just concept art, so hopefully most of these issues will be amended before production.

I think those are supposed to be veils. At least that's the first impression I got from them.

Here is how a strung and unstrung horse bow looks.

https://www.horsebows.com/images/bows/large/raven.jpg

The shape of the unstrung bow clearly matches the bows we're talking about more, minus the bowsring on the front.

The ones you linked have strings on the front side, which is usually done for ease of transportation. When not in use, bows aren't carried around and displayed strung (especially when they are time-worn historical artefacts) as the constant tension would damage and eventually break the bow (you kinda learn this after years of practicing traditional archery).

Aside from that, I really love the clothing and the scimitar thingies, it's just the bident and the bows that I'm not a fan of.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cronch wrote:
If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic.

Again you forgot half of the word! You missed the lizard part this time!
Lizardman. Lizard. Man.
There are two parts in this word, one is lizard and the other is man.
Try to remember both at once!!

I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).

They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.

But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages. It is pointed out to him that he should shut up his mouth about that if he doesn't want problems, when he creates the Arcane Colleges during Asavar Khul's invasion.

Human priests take their powers from human gods. All gods exist on the warp, just like magic. All magic comes from the warp, just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Deep down it's still the same old Games Workshop producing the same kind of stuff as it's always done. Garbage in, garbage out. I have zero faith in Old World being any more coherently designed or respectful of its antecedents in terms of visual identity as the frankly insulting clown-convention that is Age of Sigmar.

You may not like it personally, but there are many people out there who enjoy Age of Sigmar. Opinion =/= Fact

 Overread wrote:
Wasn't Warhammer Old World pretty generic fantasy for its day?

To be fair, yeah. Its more the specific style of generic fantasy I find ugly. I think its a quick glance, the random bident hooks, and the ice bits looking a lot like "random crystal glowy bits wot so you know its magical". Also had a bad first reaction to the bits on the handles/shafts, but further glance kinda makes it look like its intended to be engraved decoration, and kinda bothers me less as that, especially for an elite unit.


@Dreamchild:

I think those are actually the "cable" part of "cable backed." Recall reading about them in the Traditional Bowyers Bible--basically, the Arctic circle native groups needed something with more "oomph" than the kinda crap and rare wood they had could manage, and they didn't have good sources of more traditional backing, so they literally took up the tension stress that the sinew part of a horsebow takes by basically just tying a strong cable to each end. Kinda cool really!

@Galas:
I know you're being facetious for a point (or possibly just to troll) here, but:
Mostly I feel its an aesthetic thing? They're not slavish imitations of real life, but they also feel much less cartoony for lack of a better word than a lot of the newer stuff. Even if they aren't actually all that much more functional, the simpler and plainer design language feels less over the top I guess? I dunno, hard to put it into words, especially as somebody who does like a bit of sillyness in his Warhammer. Less "it didn't exist exactly like this in real life!" and more Star Wars vs. Flash Gordon "lived in" or "down to earth" presentation? (or possibly just the line between effective parody and inability to be taken seriously, and which is likewise movable from person to person)

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?

Cute.

This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?

The Ice Queen, winged lancers and horse archers have been around since 4th edition, I think the Kossars, Gryphon Legion and Tzar Boris were only added in 6th. In between, they had a full armylist in Citadel Journal 14-16. They had a Mordheim warband with model support. A Warmaster roster and miniature range. Plus a huge amount of background in the RPGs, though I'm admittedly not very familiar with those.

Of course, you are right that GW can decide to go in whatever direction they want: expand certain areas, rewrite others. All some people are saying is that they are or aren't fans of the chosen direction as suggested by these previews. I'm still looking forward to new plastic Winged Lancers and Streltsi, if those end up seeing the light of day. I'd leave the Tzarina and her magic bodyguard at home as I prefer non-special characters, and a setting in which magic is only wielded by a few.

So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?

Nobody is saying that, so... no..?

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?

Like really, out of curiosity since I feel I'm poking the bear here:
GW is the final arbiter on what is and isn't part of the Old World. They will have designs and concepts dating back decades for material that never made it to print or sculpt. To decry them for expanding a niche faction without having any context of the broader picture (no you do not know everything about the Old World, stop assuming you do).
This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?

So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?

"Designs based on materials we've never saw before."

What? There's nothing in the article to suggest that. These are designs done for the new game. Don't act like GW's going back to its old archives, dusting off art that they never got around to using back in 6th Edition.

Here's the thing. Kislev already had a pretty good faction aesthetic. Yes, it was an allied faction that wasn't meant to be taken on its own, but it had a visual presence that was wholly distinct from the Empire at the time of release that "Kislev" was pretty unmistakable.



This new art? Doesn't match. It looks more like a mid-tier armor set from WoW: Wrath of the Lich King than Kislev.

Also, please point out where anyone's saying that we don't want anything new ever. We definitely don't want a return to how things were with WHFB. GW's decisions from late 7th into 8th edition - bigger units, bigger monsters, bigger spells - killed the game. But what we don't want is a gaslighting of what the Old World was.

I also happened to notice how this new unit is supposed to be good with both "bow and blade," but there's no mention of the old Kossar models (and that was their whole idea, a formed unit with bows and great axes).

Maybe the Ice Queen, the most power Ice Mage ever known, enchants their weapons before battle ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Vejut wrote:

@Galas:
I know you're being facetious for a point (or possibly just to troll) here, but:
Mostly I feel its an aesthetic thing? They're not slavish imitations of real life, but they also feel much less cartoony for lack of a better word than a lot of the newer stuff. Even if they aren't actually all that much more functional, the simpler and plainer design language feels less over the top I guess? I dunno, hard to put it into words, especially as somebody who does like a bit of sillyness in his Warhammer. Less "it didn't exist exactly like this in real life!" and more Star Wars vs. Flash Gordon "lived in" or "down to earth" presentation? (or possibly just the line between effective parody and inability to be taken seriously, and which is likewise movable from person to person)

What?



I don't know. I see this Ice Archers as being in line with Total War expansion of bretonnia roster or the phenomenal Vampire Coast. Lets be real here: Had GW done the vampire coast units , people would be calling it over the top nonsense (And most of it was allready done like the colossus). Zombies riding crabs?! LOL! So warcraft-like amirite?