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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also worth noting the article credits Little Grom to the design studio, rather than the game devs.

Seems a solid chance we’ll see it in WHFB TOW too.

They outright say that, they're units designed by the GW design studio specifically for TOW project. They're then been used in TW:W3 as well, not the other way around like some were suggesting a while back.

That's...uh...lovely. Seems the game moves ever more into RTS territory with insta-defenses and reliance on abilities. I'm sure it'll be wildly popular!

Cronch wrote:
That's...uh...lovely. Seems the game moves ever more into RTS territory with insta-defenses and reliance on abilities. I'm sure it'll be wildly popular!

From what youtubers who have played the mission have said (though CA didn't make it clear), battles like this are linked to story points in the campaign. So this isn't going to be your typical battle, rather it's likely going to be the final battle vs Khorne in the campaign, and there'll be a similar one vs the other chaos gods.

That doesn't make it any better, it just means the campaign ends on a sour note. Then again, I hated both TW:WHs as complete joke of what TW series used to be, so I'm really not the target audience. The goofy ice-sled and bog bear really don't help it's case.

What do you think folks. will the Lore of Ice and Tempest make it to TOW? Also the Ice Witches and Frost maidens?

Cronch wrote:
That doesn't make it any better, it just means the campaign ends on a sour note. Then again, I hated both TW:WHs as complete joke of what TW series used to be, so I'm really not the target audience. The goofy ice-sled and bog bear really don't help it's case.

The creation of those new units doesn't have anything to do with TW:WH specifically though, they're new units designed for The Old World project that have then been put into TW:WH.

That is a great Kislev map. Makes them a much bigger country than the "3-city" state I felt they were in middlehammer. Very cool that Kislev goes all the way to Norsca and also beyond the worlds edge mountains. Lots of opportunity for building a story around match-ups. I can also envision cool units built around the northernmost and easternmost parts of the Kislev Empire.

herjan1987 wrote:
What do you think folks. will the Lore of Ice and Tempest make it to TOW? Also the Ice Witches and Frost maidens?

They specfically state

The Kislev units appearing in Total War: Warhammer III are being designed for Warhammer The Old World by our very own creative team

.

Ice Witches have been always been in Kislev lore as extremely powerful indivduals and organisation. https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ice_Witch

Extremely excited about that gigantic cannon, looks like a great centerpiece model. Makes me think of those huge bombards the turks used. Fits the kislev theme extremely well.

I hope they are going to firm up a few more things about the game soon. But I suspect we'll be waiting a while..

Cronch wrote:
That doesn't make it any better, it just means the campaign ends on a sour note. Then again, I hated both TW:WHs as complete joke of what TW series used to be, so I'm really not the target audience. The goofy ice-sled and bog bear really don't help it's case.

Fun police I see.

I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

Nothing two cannonballs can't kill.

My expectations are so low, all I'm really hoping for are some more Empire models. Even then, GWs current AoS style concerns me.

 Olthannon wrote:
Extremely excited about that gigantic cannon, looks like a great centerpiece model. Makes me think of those huge bombards the turks used. Fits the kislev theme extremely well.

I hope they are going to firm up a few more things about the game soon. But I suspect we'll be waiting a while..

"sir there's some ogres on the door. They say they want their cannon back"

Jk

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

It doesn’t look any bigger than a Dread Saurian which existing pre-AoS.

WHFB has had big monsters for as long as I’ve played it, they just used to be the uncommon centrepieces.

In terms of total war, it already biases toward single entity units, it’s more a flaw in the game than the setting.

The elemental bear bothers me a lot more than the cannon-sled. Really seems like the OW will be as much high fantasy as AOS

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

Why would it be DOA if it had the option for armies to have large centre piece models? The ice bear is awesome and great Kislev equiv of DE Hydra, my beloved Tomb King sphinxs, empire steam tank/gryphons and the like... 5 different lizardmen dinosaur monsters (God I love Lizardmen).

WHFB has always had these elements, big stompy monsters or giant mechanical war machines and I'm happy that it exists in WHFB.

yes but the monsters were rarieties. The rank and file aspect was more important, even if you went with the troll king the biggest thing you'd see in that army was limited.

Rank and file aspect may have been important to many fans of the old game but it was also a turn-off for many others. Old game tried to emphasize rank-and-file in its last edition but combined with price increases it killed the game for good. Age of Sigmar approach with big centerpiece models seems to work much better. Big models appear to wider audience, sell like hotcakes and when they sell for 100+ dollars apiece, it makes the game profitable. 50 dollars for half a unit of infantry does not.

EDIT: I fail to see where FW gets resources to produce big plastic kits, or any plastic kits for that matter. The amount of kits needed to launch new game is huge, more than all other Specialist games combined. This is the biggest mystery regarding Old World in my opinion.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

Cronch wrote:
That doesn't make it any better, it just means the campaign ends on a sour note. Then again, I hated both TW:WHs as complete joke of what TW series used to be, so I'm really not the target audience. The goofy ice-sled and bog bear really don't help it's case.

Fun police I see.

I sincerely apologize for having an opinion.

jullevi wrote:
Rank and file aspect may have been important to many fans of the old game but it was also a turn-off for many others. Old game tried to emphasize rank-and-file in its last edition but combined with price increases it killed the game for good. Age of Sigmar approach with big centerpiece models seems to work much better. Big models appear to wider audience, sell like hotcakes and when they sell for 100+ dollars apiece, it makes the game profitable. 50 dollars for half a unit of infantry does not.

Correction, GW's greed killed the game off. Not the focus on game mechanics. Least of which rank and file.
It's irrelevant wheter you wanted to go monster bash, big centerpiece or rank and file, the cost associated with doing any of these things was just frankly unstomachable, combined with large games beeing community standard and it was the perfect storm.

AoS works better because it is as of now, still more affordable than to field a 3000pts army of WHFB which was the norm over here.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

It doesn’t look any bigger than a Dread Saurian which existing pre-AoS.

WHFB has had big monsters for as long as I’ve played it, they just used to be the uncommon centrepieces.

In terms of total war, it already biases toward single entity units, it’s more a flaw in the game than the setting.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

Why would it be DOA if it had the option for armies to have large centre piece models? The ice bear is awesome and great Kislev equiv of DE Hydra, my beloved Tomb King sphinxs, empire steam tank/gryphons and the like... 5 different lizardmen dinosaur monsters (God I love Lizardmen).

WHFB has always had these elements, big stompy monsters or giant mechanical war machines and I'm happy that it exists in WHFB.

When an army consists of 12 models and most are monstrous "Center pieces", I won't play the game. I don't like that style of play, and I won't suddenly like it if it's on square bases.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Spoiler:

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

It doesn’t look any bigger than a Dread Saurian which existing pre-AoS.

WHFB has had big monsters for as long as I’ve played it, they just used to be the uncommon centrepieces.

In terms of total war, it already biases toward single entity units, it’s more a flaw in the game than the setting.

I mean, yeah, I can't argue with the fact that the Dread Saurian "existed", but a massive FW piece most players have never seen and even most Lizardmen players wouldn't have isn't exactly typical of WHFB, and the question is whether it should be. There certainly was (and still is) a trend towards more and larger centrepiece models, where even a formerly little Elf wizard has to be accompanied by a massive monster just to show how big and powerful he is, and Archaon needs a big chimerathing because a demonic horse just isn't impressive enough.

jullevi wrote:Rank and file aspect may have been important to many fans of the old game but it was also a turn-off for many others. Old game tried to emphasize rank-and-file in its last edition but combined with price increases it killed the game for good. Age of Sigmar approach with big centerpiece models seems to work much better. Big models appear to wider audience, sell like hotcakes and when they sell for 100+ dollars apiece, it makes the game profitable. 50 dollars for half a unit of infantry does not.

EDIT: I fail to see where FW gets resources to produce big plastic kits, or any plastic kits for that matter. The amount of kits needed to launch new game is huge, more than all other Specialist games combined. This is the biggest mystery regarding Old World in my opinion.

If having units in ranks is a turn-off, there's AoS. If a player is disappointed there's no option for more monsters instead of units of little soldiers, there's AoS. If those are the things that were problematic with WHFB, AoS "fixed" them, and if they are to be emulated in newWHFB, what's the point of bringing it "back" in the first place? The new game precisely needs to have the things people liked about WHFB and are absent from AoS.
And I'd very much argue it wasn't the existence of rank-and-file units that was the problem, it's the fact that a unit of rank-and-file figures suddenly had to contain many tens of models to be worth anything. When it becomes normal to field a unit of 40 Witch Elves and 80-100 Skaven Slaves, something has gone very wrong in sensible game design. I'm currently working on some 10mm figures, and even then 40 is the maximum I'll have in a single group, and that's a unit that only cost me like... 6 pounds. But there's only so much painting I want to do, and from a gameplay point of view I'd rather have several units of 40 than 1 big blob of 200 figures.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

jullevi wrote:Rank and file aspect may have been important to many fans of the old game but it was also a turn-off for many others. Old game tried to emphasize rank-and-file in its last edition but combined with price increases it killed the game for good.

If having units in ranks is a turn-off, there's AoS. If a player is disappointed there's no option for more monsters instead of units of little soldiers, there's AoS. If those are the things that were problematic with WHFB, AoS "fixed" them, and if they are to be emulated in newWHFB, what's the point of bringing it "back" in the first place? The new game precisely needs to have the things people liked about WHFB and are absent from AoS.
And I'd very much argue it wasn't the existence of rank-and-file units that was the problem, it's the fact that a unit of rank-and-file figures suddenly had to contain many tens of models to be worth anything. When it becomes normal to field a unit of 40 Witch Elves and 80-100 Skaven Slaves, something has gone very wrong in sensible game design. I'm currently working on some 10mm figures, and even then 40 is the maximum I'll have in a single group, and that's a unit that only cost me like... 6 pounds. But there's only so much painting I want to do, and from a gameplay point of view I'd rather have several units of 40 than 1 big blob of 200 figures.

I didn't mean to imply that existence of rank-and-file was the doom of WHFB but it kept away the players who didn't want to spend tens of hours painting expensive wound tokens that played no part in the game. In fact, I agree with you that pushing large unit sizes that required multiple purchases was the mistake. If new game features rank-and-file infantry (and I see no reason why it shouldn't), they need to sell the miniatures in unit sizes that are usable straight from the box.

However, I still believe that Old World is developing towards increased amount of big centerpiece models as they appeal to larger audience. An optimal ruleset would be one that allows different kinds of armies with none being more obvious than the others.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Spoiler:

 Just Tony wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I mean, is the ice sled really that bad? The ogres had/have something that's pretty similar in nature. A wonky big cannon pulled by a big animal.

And WF had lion chariots, chariots pulled by lizards, etc. It doesn't seem like anything too abnormal or weird. Though since the big ice bear was designed by TOW team, I guess that game will be like AOS/40k and have really, really big centerpiece models.

And if that's the case, it will be DOA for me.

It doesn’t look any bigger than a Dread Saurian which existing pre-AoS.

WHFB has had big monsters for as long as I’ve played it, they just used to be the uncommon centrepieces.

In terms of total war, it already biases toward single entity units, it’s more a flaw in the game than the setting.

I mean, yeah, I can't argue with the fact that the Dread Saurian "existed", but a massive FW piece most players have never seen and even most Lizardmen players wouldn't have isn't exactly typical of WHFB, and the question is whether it should be. There certainly was (and still is) a trend towards more and larger centrepiece models, where even a formerly little Elf wizard has to be accompanied by a massive monster just to show how big and powerful he is, and Archaon needs a big chimerathing because a demonic horse just isn't impressive enough.

jullevi wrote:Rank and file aspect may have been important to many fans of the old game but it was also a turn-off for many others. Old game tried to emphasize rank-and-file in its last edition but combined with price increases it killed the game for good. Age of Sigmar approach with big centerpiece models seems to work much better. Big models appear to wider audience, sell like hotcakes and when they sell for 100+ dollars apiece, it makes the game profitable. 50 dollars for half a unit of infantry does not.

EDIT: I fail to see where FW gets resources to produce big plastic kits, or any plastic kits for that matter. The amount of kits needed to launch new game is huge, more than all other Specialist games combined. This is the biggest mystery regarding Old World in my opinion.

If having units in ranks is a turn-off, there's AoS. If a player is disappointed there's no option for more monsters instead of units of little soldiers, there's AoS. If those are the things that were problematic with WHFB, AoS "fixed" them, and if they are to be emulated in newWHFB, what's the point of bringing it "back" in the first place? The new game precisely needs to have the things people liked about WHFB and are absent from AoS.
And I'd very much argue it wasn't the existence of rank-and-file units that was the problem, it's the fact that a unit of rank-and-file figures suddenly had to contain many tens of models to be worth anything. When it becomes normal to field a unit of 40 Witch Elves and 80-100 Skaven Slaves, something has gone very wrong in sensible game design. I'm currently working on some 10mm figures, and even then 40 is the maximum I'll have in a single group, and that's a unit that only cost me like... 6 pounds. But there's only so much painting I want to do, and from a gameplay point of view I'd rather have several units of 40 than 1 big blob of 200 figures.

Exactly.

A Slaan in a unit of Temple Guard, Carnosaur, or the occasional Dragon/Greater Daemon, was about as far as "centerpieces" went for most of WHFBs existence. And of course special characters. They turned Lizardmen and Beastmen into monster zoo armies to sell big kits. 8th edition bloated the unit count to sell more models. It was painfully obvious during the "End Times" GW was trying to move excess stock. 8th Ed was released in 2010 and five years later AoS dropped with Sigmarines. That doesn't happen over night.

They neglected Fantasy for years and suddenly started raining down monster kits from the heavens, while asking people to buy units in 40-100 man blocks, as the prices increased.

GW milked the whales to jump start AoS.

If they have no intention of returning to a more grounded, unit focused game with ranks, then why bother?

Hrm. Guess I'm just confused about people's recollection of WFB and perception of AoS.

Aside from the early days when they didn't have the plastic tech to do big centerpiece models, Warhammer had them. It definitely wasn't strictly a late 8th phenomen.

And just because they don't rank up, doesn't mean that AoS is exclusively or heavily focused on big models rather than model count.

Giant ice bears aside, the Kislev stuff that TW3 is showing off is very infantry focused, very traditional units for the region with the usual warhammer touches.

 streetsamurai wrote:
The elemental bear bothers me a lot more than the cannon-sled. Really seems like the OW will be as much high fantasy as AOS

Ice magic has been part of the Kislev lore for a long time though, while a giant magical ice bear is a bit different, they had stuff like an enchanted Ice Palace already.

Voss wrote:
Hrm. Guess I'm just confused about people's recollection of WFB and perception of AoS.

Aside from the early days when they didn't have the plastic tech to do big centerpiece models, Warhammer had them. It definitely wasn't strictly a late 8th phenomen.

And just because they don't rank up, doesn't mean that AoS is exclusively or heavily focused on big models rather than model count.

Giant ice bears aside, the Kislev stuff that TW3 is showing off is very infantry focused, very traditional units for the region with the usual warhammer touches.

Even the "big" centerpieces were a lot smaller than AoS centerpieces like Teclis or Stardrake. It was very much 2010s when the big plastic kits started rolling in.
However I do agree that GW always wanted to do big centerpiece models, they just had to keep them small. Problem is, TOW is a game marketed to the 'veteran" players who want to relieve their nostalgia, so making "modern size" centerpieces clashes with their desire.

Cronch wrote:

Voss wrote:
Hrm. Guess I'm just confused about people's recollection of WFB and perception of AoS.

Aside from the early days when they didn't have the plastic tech to do big centerpiece models, Warhammer had them. It definitely wasn't strictly a late 8th phenomen.

And just because they don't rank up, doesn't mean that AoS is exclusively or heavily focused on big models rather than model count.

Giant ice bears aside, the Kislev stuff that TW3 is showing off is very infantry focused, very traditional units for the region with the usual warhammer touches.

Even the "big" centerpieces were a lot smaller than AoS centerpieces like Teclis or Stardrake. It was very much 2010s when the big plastic kits started rolling in.
However I do agree that GW always wanted to do big centerpiece models, they just had to keep them small. Problem is, TOW is a game marketed to the 'veteran" players who want to relieve their nostalgia, so making "modern size" centerpieces clashes with their desire.

As a "Veteran player" enjoying my nostalga I enjoy Total War and also the big models - as you say they made them as soon as they could, often suggesting ways of converting diosaurs and the like to eneble big monsters to be used. There is a huge misconception that Warhammer was low magic with a bit of magic and occassional monsters when WFB was always high fantasy full of powerful magic and monsters.

Also Total War battles look more like large scale clashes where such large entities would make sense. For me at least.