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If you love iconic units like Ravenwing Black Knights, you’ll love this update – these plasma-toting bringers of vengeance, for instance, have been dropped from 38 to 34 points.

Grey Knights are another set of Space Marines who’ve seen some significant reductions, across both characters and core units that every army uses. A member of a Strike Squad now costs, on average, a mere 17 points per model after you’ve kitted them out, while their Terminator counterparts will now come to around 35 points a model.

You can look forward to some less-seen units finding new niches. Triarch Praetorians, for instance, have seen a chunky reduction of 26 to 20 points when armed with rods of covenant, or 22 points when armed with voidblades and particle casters.

A number of options that our playtesters found were consistently overperforming have had their points nudged up. At 150 points, the Crimson Hunter Exarch remains a great choice, but is less of an “auto-include” – as is the Razorwing Jetfighter, now at 115 points.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/chapter-approved-points-updates-to-look-out-forgw-homepage-post-1/

Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

So while I agree the CHE going up 15pts takes it out of "auto-include" territory, it does kind eff-up all my lists which do include 1 CHE as a mandatory 3rd Flyer for my detachment.
Everything in my list is pared down so much, I hardly have anything to drop for those points. Back to the drawing board

-

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

I think the problem here is that dropping GK points is pretty much all they will do in a CA, the GK need a complete overhaul and that’s really only going to happen with a new codex.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

It's a 20% reduction. That's pretty huge. 15 points for a marine with a force weapon and a +1 cast / +1 deny (and then +2 for SB). Then add whatever they get in PA.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

It's chapter approved. It's about point changes. And isn't making units nobody uses at least slightly less worthless sort of the point?

If you were expecting CA to rewrite half the codexes in the game here...that's kinda on you.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a 20% reduction. That's pretty huge. 15 points for a marine with a force weapon and a +1 cast / +1 deny (and then +2 for SB). Then add whatever they get in PA.

'But the ship has already hit the Space Marine iceberg sir!'

Hrmm, a second book with all points values, not just adjusted ones. that's kind of a neat idea, though I wonder if it'll increase the cost much. CAs tend to have so little meat in them I might be interested in just the points value book.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Hrmm, a second book with all points values, not just adjusted ones. that's kind of a neat idea, though I wonder if it'll increase the cost much. CAs tend to have so little meat in them I might be interested in just the points value book.

The package of books is the same cost as the previous single book, only change is that they are 2 books now instead of 1, and now it will list all of the points.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

I think the problem here is that dropping GK points is pretty much all they will do in a CA, the GK need a complete overhaul and that’s really only going to happen with a new codex.

CSM expected to be fixed with a new codex too, then 2.0 released...

FERRUMITE wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

I think the problem here is that dropping GK points is pretty much all they will do in a CA, the GK need a complete overhaul and that’s really only going to happen with a new codex.

CSM expected to be fixed with a new codex too, then 2.0 released...

Didn’t say a new codex would fix them just that points changes aren’t enough to fix GK so CA isn’t their answer, though it might help a little.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Didn’t say a new codex would fix them just that points changes aren’t enough to fix GK so CA isn’t their answer, though it might help a little.

But CA COULD be used to fix GKs. A few points drops here and there, then give all GK units 1 simple ability for free: Psybolt Ammo. DW have SIA, Vanilla Marines have Combat Doctrines. So we have officially reached the point in which GKs should have Psybolt Ammo as standard on all units and not just a once pre turn, only 1 unit stratagem.

-

Strike teams at 17 and terminators at 35 will not make GK competitive, but will make them club friendly.

They get to the point where you can take a balanced GK list and have a good game against non tournament lists.

 Galef wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Didn’t say a new codex would fix them just that points changes aren’t enough to fix GK so CA isn’t their answer, though it might help a little.

But CA COULD be used to fix GKs. A few points drops here and there, then give all GK units 1 simple ability for free: Psybolt Ammo. DW have SIA, Vanilla Marines have Combat Doctrines. So we have officially reached the point in which GKs should have Psybolt Ammo as standard on all units and not just a once pre turn, only 1 unit stratagem.

-

If they were going to do that they would do it in the GK PA not CA, I do hope the CA points changes make them at least friendly game playable though and that they get some more buffs soon.

It's a "bottom-tier army gets points reductions and people think that means something even though it doesn't because the other factions got points drops too" episode.

ERJAK wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

It's chapter approved. It's about point changes. And isn't making units nobody uses at least slightly less worthless sort of the point?

If you were expecting CA to rewrite half the codexes in the game here...that's kinda on you.

Except, if you use FW, then feth you, so far


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a "bottom-tier army gets points reductions and people think that means something even though it doesn't because the other factions got points drops too" episode.

well, we haven't seen all of it.
Yet. but considering the last one's were of that calibre that could happen.

Ooh...

Yeah Daemon Princes with wings were underperforming so that makes some sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Daemon Princes with wings were underperforming so that makes some sense.

Tzeentch DPs are. This may be CSM DPs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Daemon Princes with wings were underperforming so that makes some sense.

Regular CSM ones, i guess, not really, but also not broken, unlike some other DP's

None of this really changes the calculus for CSM. They still won't see the table.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
None of this really changes the calculus for CSM. They still won't see the table.

It's almost as though GW doesn't get the issues with the codex they fething wrote.

I mean the feedback was preety clear on the PA2 side.
I mean the chorus of no fixed legion traits MUST'VE been Realized by now.
Then again GW is good at ignoring thins like these issues, hence why GK got no decent pricecut for such a long period of time. (not to mention FW armies )

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I suspect that they didn't go far enough with points adjustments similar to CA:2017 and CA:2018.

The Eldar flyers definitely needed a points increase, but I don't think 150 is enough. I'm curious to see if the Wave Serpent is affected. It's wargear needs to be tripled at the very least.

I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

Not a fan of the wardog ones,
It steps heavily on the feet of dreadnoughts and certain daemonengines?

Alas we have not seen what happened to FW yet, but if last one is an indication that won't be a good thing this time aswel..

Not Online!!! wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

Not a fan of the wardog ones,
It steps heavily on the feet of dreadnoughts and certain daemonengines?

Alas we have not seen what happened to FW yet, but if last one is an indication that won't be a good thing this time aswel..

I can see that, I’m not a fan of the forge fiend/ mauler fiend models so I use war dogs in their place in lists, I swapped out the legs with the ones from the onagar dunecrawler, they look nice and chaosy that way, still working on the conversion though.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

Not a fan of the wardog ones,
It steps heavily on the feet of dreadnoughts and certain daemonengines?

Alas we have not seen what happened to FW yet, but if last one is an indication that won't be a good thing this time aswel..

I can see that, I’m not a fan of the forge fiend/ mauler fiend models so I use war dogs in their place in lists, I swapped out the legs with the ones from the onagar dunecrawler, they look nice and chaosy that way, still working on the conversion though.

Oh i love the amirigers for conversions aswell, but imo instead of bringing them down, let there be a place for stuff like Hellbrutes, dreads and decimators for chaos.
This is my core issue with it, but as i said we have not seen what happened to these yet, so wait and drink coffee.
Alas we now know that AP-1 on a MEQ is about 1 pts accordingly to gw, what with CSM now beeing 11 pts, whilest tac marines are no 12.

Not Online!!! wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

Not a fan of the wardog ones,
It steps heavily on the feet of dreadnoughts and certain daemonengines?

Alas we have not seen what happened to FW yet, but if last one is an indication that won't be a good thing this time aswel..

I can see that, I’m not a fan of the forge fiend/ mauler fiend models so I use war dogs in their place in lists, I swapped out the legs with the ones from the onagar dunecrawler, they look nice and chaosy that way, still working on the conversion though.

Oh i love the amirigers for conversions aswell, but imo instead of bringing them down, let there be a place for stuff like Hellbrutes, dreads and decimators for chaos.
This is my core issue with it, but as i said we have not seen what happened to these yet, so wait and drink coffee.
Alas we now know that AP-1 on a MEQ is about 1 pts accordingly to gw, what with CSM now beeing 11 pts, whilest tac marines are no 12.

One point is AP-1 in certain situations and much better rules.

Of course I bet GW thinks DttFE is a super dangerous rule and probably makes them worth it!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

It's a 20% reduction. That's pretty huge. 15 points for a marine with a force weapon and a +1 cast / +1 deny (and then +2 for SB). Then add whatever they get in PA.

An intercessor cost 17pts, and he has 2W and a better gun that always works at 24-30" and not 12". 35pts termintors cost twice as much as 2 intercessors, and that is half the fire power of two intercessors with half the wounds. Plus GK have access to a limited number of powers, gate on big unit, astral aim on something with a lascanon and a shield buff on a hero probably, after that those +1cast are used to cast 12" range 1MW smites. If somehow GK baby smite becomes a problem all marines will just start running master librarians with that 24" psychic hood.

But it is going to be interesting to see. My army is now 75pts extra from termintors and 20pts on strikes. 95pts, I don't know what to spend on. I do wonder if other armies are going to get big point drops like that too, or will GW just rise point costs for other armies. 2020 looks very interesting pre PA.