Preview on point changes...

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**Not Online!!!**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I liking the generic chaos marine points drop, the daemon prince w/ wings point drop and the war dog point drop, this will help my CSM list a bunch.

Not a fan of the wardog ones,
It steps heavily on the feet of dreadnoughts and certain daemonengines?

Alas we have not seen what happened to FW yet, but if last one is an indication that won't be a good thing this time aswel..

I can see that, I’m not a fan of the forge fiend/ mauler fiend models so I use war dogs in their place in lists, I swapped out the legs with the ones from the onagar dunecrawler, they look nice and chaosy that way, still working on the conversion though.

Oh i love the amirigers for conversions aswell, but imo instead of bringing them down, let there be a place for stuff like Hellbrutes, dreads and decimators for chaos.
This is my core issue with it, but as i said we have not seen what happened to these yet, so wait and drink coffee.
Alas we now know that AP-1 on a MEQ is about 1 pts accordingly to gw, what with CSM now beeing 11 pts, whilest tac marines are no 12.

One point is AP-1 in certain situations and much better rules.

Of course I bet GW thinks DttFE is a super dangerous rule and probably makes them worth it!

I have remained without judgement, and will also ignore ATSKNF for Free and better traits, just baseline.
Atleast it is something comparatively. Yet since CSM are anyways just troop tax for the real heavy hitters i can't be mad really.

**Kanluwen**

Galef wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Didn’t say a new codex would fix them just that points changes aren’t enough to fix GK so CA isn’t their answer, though it might help a little.
But CA COULD be used to fix GKs. A few points drops here and there, then give all GK units 1 simple ability for free: Psybolt Ammo. DW have SIA, Vanilla Marines have Combat Doctrines. So we have officially reached the point in which GKs should have Psybolt Ammo as standard on all units and not just a once pre turn, only 1 unit stratagem.
-

The same thing could be said for Skitarii Doctrina Imperatives, yet here we are.
Or Chimera Vox-Arrays.

**Galef**

oni wrote:
The Eldar flyers definitely needed a points increase, but I don't think 150 is enough. I'm curious to see if the Wave Serpent is affected. It's wargear needs to be tripled at the very least.

Incremental changes are absolutely what they should be doing. a 15pt increase if good if other units, like the Serpent, also got 10-15ppm increase while at the same time, underperforming units, like Banshees, get decreases.

The net result is that BALANCED lists don't really change, but spammers have to make changes.

For Example, I have a casual list with 3x 5 CSM, but also 2x 15 Plague Bearers. As CSM are going down to 11ppm, and PBs are going to 8ppm (we assume), than in my particular list, I gained and lost 30pts, so it was a wash for me.

-

**Imateria**

oni wrote:
I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I suspect that they didn't go far enough with points adjustments similar to CA:2017 and CA:2018.

The Eldar flyers definitely needed a points increase, but I don't think 150 is enough. I'm curious to see if the Wave Serpent is affected. It's wargear needs to be tripled at the very least.

Thats just the base cost, 176 with Starcannons seems good but not overcosted or undercosted. If other units got a points drop I imagine we'll see the end of flyer spam anyway.

**Daedalus81**

Karol wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seriously? WHAT THE HELL......

GK points reductions are basically worthless at this point as they are so far behind the curve as to be a negative in any army.

And hey, remember those units literally no one used? Guess what, now they are slightly less worthless.

It's a 20% reduction. That's pretty huge. 15 points for a marine with a force weapon and a +1 cast / +1 deny (and then +2 for SB). Then add whatever they get in PA.

An intercessor cost 17pts, and he has 2W and a better gun that always works at 24-30" and not 12". 35pts termintors cost twice as much as 2 intercessors, and that is half the fire power of two intercessors with half the wounds. Plus GK have access to a limited number of powers, gate on big unit, astral aim on something with a lascanon and a shield buff on a hero probably, after that those +1cast are used to cast 12" range 1MW smites. If somehow GK baby smite becomes a problem all marines will just start running master librarians with that 24" psychic hood.

But it is going to be interesting to see. My army is now 75pts extra from termintors and 20pts on strikes. 95pts, I don't know what to spend on. I do wonder if other armies are going to get big point drops like that too, or will GW just rise point costs for other armies. 2020 looks very interesting pre PA.

Primaris do not deepstrike or have force weapons or cast and deny with a +1 and do half the shots (better AP). Falchion GKs come down with as many attacks as Primaris. It seems like a pretty decent trade-off.

Yes, GK need spells, but I'm fairly optimistic that the "Psychic" part of PA might do that.

**Sunny Side Up**

Crimson Hunter is a meta-delayed nerf. It was expected, but with Marines out and about, they aren't that hot anymore and probably could've used a point drop instead.

**Apple Peel**

Before any other changes, this should add 124 points of room to the Militarum Tempestus army I’m making. More room and such and models to buy and paint, but I still like it.

**Imateria**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Crimson Hunter is a meta-delayed nerf. It was expected, but with Marines out and about, they aren't that hot anymore and probably could've used a point drop instead.

Good god no.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
None of this really changes the calculus for CSM. They still won't see the table.

It's almost as though GW doesn't get the issues with the codex they fething wrote.

A 2 point drop basically gives every 5 man CSM squad a free PG or AC. I'm not going to waste that opportunity.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Daedalus81 wrote:
A 2 point drop basically gives every 5 man CSM squad a free PG or AC. I'm not going to waste that opportunity.

You're right, that brings up four very important questions.
Yeah?
And?
So?
What?

**Karol**

Well it is one more squad. My army will get 95pts. for that I can get 5 GK strikes and have 10pts left over to buy extra gear, if GK ever get stuff that costs that much and is worth taking. So it is improvment .

**Darsath**

Part of me wants to be excited. The other part remembers last year's CA. Poorly performing factions got some good focus then (such as Grey Knights) and it didn't really have any impact. I'm sceptical, but there are more things to be seen.

**Daedalus81**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
A 2 point drop basically gives every 5 man CSM squad a free PG or AC. I'm not going to waste that opportunity.

You're right, that brings up four very important questions.
Yeah?
And?
So?
What?

Because.
Pew Pew.
Apple.
Pie.

I get that you think CSM wouldn't be fixed unless they were like... 8 points compared to current marines, but we all know that isn't sane or practical.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
Part of me wants to be excited. The other part remembers last year's CA. Poorly performing factions got some good focus then (such as Grey Knights) and it didn't really have any impact. I'm sceptical, but there are more things to be seen.

Last time GK got a lot of character and weapon drops. The is the first time they're getting drops to Troops, so it won't make them meta, but the extra bodies might make them a little less helpless...barring the other marines

**Darsath**

We haven't seen much yet, obviously. We don't know most of the big changes, or the context of how these changes match up with everything else. Just a reminder to remember last year's CA changes when reflecting on what is shown.

**harlokin**

Galef wrote:
oni wrote:
The Eldar flyers definitely needed a points increase, but I don't think 150 is enough. I'm curious to see if the Wave Serpent is affected. It's wargear needs to be tripled at the very least.
Incremental changes are absolutely what they should be doing. a 15pt increase if good if other units, like the Serpent, also got 10-15ppm increase while at the same time, underperforming units, like Banshees, get decreases.

The net result is that BALANCED lists don't really change, but spammers have to make changes.

For Example, I have a casual list with 3x 5 CSM, but also 2x 15 Plague Bearers. As CSM are going down to 11ppm, and PBs are going to 8ppm (we assume), than in my particular list, I gained and lost 30pts, so it was a wash for me.

-

Here's hoping.

My single Razorwing has gone up 10 points, but my nine Reavers are down three each....fingers crossed they don't hike my three up Talos too much...

**Dandelion**

I’d rather they bump the points on good units than drop the points on bad ones. Plus, it seems that every faction will get drops, so it’s not like any one faction is going to get all that far ahead of others (though maybe some will, but I dunno). All we’ve done is add more models to both sides for the same points. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1500 pt game now would be comparable in size to a 2000 pt game at the start of 8th.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you think CSM wouldn't be fixed unless they were like... 8 points compared to current marines, but we all know that isn't sane or practical.

No, actually, the fact that they dropped them to 11 indicates that no significant changes will be coming down the pipe for a long time. So this is it. Welcome to Chaos 2.0.

Chaos 2.0 cannot line up against their loyalist counterparts, period. It is an exercise in futility. The entire marine vs marine meta is over.

Chaos from here on out will not use marines, it will be janky soup lists that leverage cultists and daemons to deliver characters. I'm sure there will be a couple competitive lists in there, probably even some stuff that places at tournament. But the ~150 CSM models I have in my cabinet, I might as well turn them into ornaments to hang from the Christmas tree, they're done.

**Yarium**

11 ppm Chaos marines will be good or not depending on the outcome of one of TWO rumours:

Rumour A - Cultists are going down to 4 ppm. If this is true, the minimum points costs of cultists will go down to 40 points, while Chaos Space Marine minimum will be 55 points. As such, Cultists would still be the preferred choice.

Rumour B - Guardsmen go up to 5 ppm (Cultists unchanged). If this is true, then the minimum points costs of cultists will remain unchanged at 50 points, only 5 points cheaper than the minimum squad of Chaos Space Marines. For 5 points, the benefits of the Chaos Space Marines starts becoming real; equal number of attacks in close combat that are higher strength and higher accuracy, much better armour, better morale, better weapon options.

I'm hoping Rumour B is true.

**harlokin**

Dandelion wrote:
I’d rather they bump the points on good units than drop the points on bad ones. Plus, it seems that every faction will get drops, so it’s not like any one faction is going to get all that far ahead of others (though maybe some will, but I dunno). All we’ve done is add more models to both sides for the same points. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1500 pt game now would be comparable in size to a 2000 pt game at the start of 8th.

I understand the sentiment, but I'd rather the opposite.

I play 1500 games, and there isn't much fat in the lists to accomodate points hikes, particularly as I don't have many 'alternative options' in my Drukhari codex.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
None of this really changes the calculus for CSM. They still won't see the table.

It's almost as though GW doesn't get the issues with the codex they fething wrote.

A 2 point drop basically gives every 5 man CSM squad a free PG or AC. I'm not going to waste that opportunity.

You probably SHOULD waste it. A single Autocannon or Plasma Gun per 5 man squads is awful for weapon saturation. They're still awful models at 11 points, especially with non updates to their rules.

Also that still doesn't buy them a Chaincannon which is the best weapon for a min squad so they can do something meaningful.

**Daedalus81**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you think CSM wouldn't be fixed unless they were like... 8 points compared to current marines, but we all know that isn't sane or practical.

No, actually, the fact that they dropped them to 11 indicates that no significant changes will be coming down the pipe for a long time. So this is it. Welcome to Chaos 2.0.

Chaos 2.0 cannot line up against their loyalist counterparts, period. It is an exercise in futility. The entire marine vs marine meta is over.

Chaos from here on out will not use marines, it will be janky soup lists that leverage cultists and daemons to deliver characters. I'm sure there will be a couple competitive lists in there, probably even some stuff that places at tournament. But the ~150 CSM models I have in my cabinet, I might as well turn them into ornaments to hang from the Christmas tree, they're done.

Sure, that's fair. I can't see people really running blobs of CSM, but I don't think much changes that, because they're bolter bois and nothing is charging Centurions, really.

As it stands now though it is 285 for a min battalion for 8 CP, which I think it even more efficient than what IS can do.

**tneva82**

Point drops to weak units rather than hikes for powerful units has simple reason. Money. Price drops=more models can be sold. Hike=people need less models.

Just as always CA is just way to sell more models. Balance and good of game are secondary(or rather tertiary) considerations

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yarium wrote:
11 ppm Chaos marines will be good or not depending on the outcome of one of TWO rumours:

Rumour A - Cultists are going down to 4 ppm. If this is true, the minimum points costs of cultists will go down to 40 points, while Chaos Space Marine minimum will be 55 points. As such, Cultists would still be the preferred choice.

Rumour B - Guardsmen go up to 5 ppm (Cultists unchanged). If this is true, then the minimum points costs of cultists will remain unchanged at 50 points, only 5 points cheaper than the minimum squad of Chaos Space Marines. For 5 points, the benefits of the Chaos Space Marines starts becoming real; equal number of attacks in close combat that are higher strength and higher accuracy, much better armour, better morale, better weapon options.

I'm hoping Rumour B is true.

You're still going to take Cultists in scenario B because you claiming the shooting is better or the melee is better is not true for the price. 5-10 Bolter shots at BS3+ is worse than 10-20 Las shots at BS4+, and I can add the Heavy Stubber without even breaking that price point!

**Not Online!!!**

Daedalus81 wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you think CSM wouldn't be fixed unless they were like... 8 points compared to current marines, but we all know that isn't sane or practical.

No, actually, the fact that they dropped them to 11 indicates that no significant changes will be coming down the pipe for a long time. So this is it. Welcome to Chaos 2.0.

Chaos 2.0 cannot line up against their loyalist counterparts, period. It is an exercise in futility. The entire marine vs marine meta is over.

Chaos from here on out will not use marines, it will be janky soup lists that leverage cultists and daemons to deliver characters. I'm sure there will be a couple competitive lists in there, probably even some stuff that places at tournament. But the ~150 CSM models I have in my cabinet, I might as well turn them into ornaments to hang from the Christmas tree, they're done.

Sure, that's fair. I can't see people really running blobs of CSM, but I don't think much changes that, because they're bolter bois and nothing is charging Centurions, really.

As it stands now though it is 285 for a min battalion for 8 CP, which I think it even more efficient than what IS can do.

At 11 pts you can do some shenanigans at lower point levels if you go full nuts with them. (RC, slaanesh,)
But that is heavy skew territorry.

**Dandelion**

harlokin wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
I’d rather they bump the points on good units than drop the points on bad ones. Plus, it seems that every faction will get drops, so it’s not like any one faction is going to get all that far ahead of others (though maybe some will, but I dunno). All we’ve done is add more models to both sides for the same points. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1500 pt game now would be comparable in size to a 2000 pt game at the start of 8th.

I understand the sentiment, but I'd rather the opposite.

I play 1500 games, and there isn't much fat in the lists to accomodate points hikes, particularly as I don't have many 'alternative options' in my Drukhari codex.

You can always adjust the point limit. If things go up, but you want to take the same units then you can play 1750 pts. The inverse is not so true, there is a hard limit as to how cheap you can make things, ie 0. The closer you get to 0 the less room there is for balancing units.
Hypothetically, if all the points in the game doubled, would you play at 1500 pts or 3000 pts?

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yarium wrote:
11 ppm Chaos marines will be good or not depending on the outcome of one of TWO rumours:

Rumour A - Cultists are going down to 4 ppm. If this is true, the minimum points costs of cultists will go down to 40 points, while Chaos Space Marine minimum will be 55 points. As such, Cultists would still be the preferred choice.

Rumour B - Guardsmen go up to 5 ppm (Cultists unchanged). If this is true, then the minimum points costs of cultists will remain unchanged at 50 points, only 5 points cheaper than the minimum squad of Chaos Space Marines. For 5 points, the benefits of the Chaos Space Marines starts becoming real; equal number of attacks in close combat that are higher strength and higher accuracy, much better armour, better morale, better weapon options.

I'm hoping Rumour B is true.

You're still going to take Cultists in scenario B because you claiming the shooting is better or the melee is better is not true for the price. 5-10 Bolter shots at BS3+ is worse than 10-20 Las shots at BS4+, and I can add the Heavy Stubber without even breaking that price point!

Because shots are all that matters?

5 T4 2+ wounds in cover versus 10 T3 5+ wounds? Not to mention you won't ever get those 20 shots until 12".

Nevermind that 5 bolter shots and 10 autoguns do:

2.2 vs 2.5 wounds to T3
1.7 vs 1.7 wounds to T4
1.1 vs 0.8 wounds to T7

Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

**Not Online!!!**

For CP fueling you'd still take Cultists most likely.
And CP is really the lifeblood if you play mono CSM.
So even if CSM would be better i'd assume you'd still use cultists if you end up cheaper, for more hammer units and threat saturation.

Otoh, it's atleast nice that gw aknoledged that CSM are worse then Vanilla SM:

**TwinPoleTheory**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

**Not Online!!!**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

Preety much, also there's still the fact that stratagems prefer big units for baseline CSM units.

**Xenomancers**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
None of this really changes the calculus for CSM. They still won't see the table.

Spiky 17 went down 30 points. That is a big deal. Or basically you get free autocannons on all your 5 man marine units.