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If anyone sees GK lists pop up anywhere, Holler.

That being said, Word Bearer lists are looking more and more fun. Not competitive, but fun.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spiky 17 went down 30 points. That is a big deal. Or basically you get free autocannons on all your 5 man marine units.

Again, you're better served by Cultists so you can get weapons and units that actually kill stuff.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

Preety much, also there's still the fact that stratagems prefer big units for baseline CSM units.

Which in that case the Strats are better used on Elite units rather than the base troop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
11 ppm Chaos marines will be good or not depending on the outcome of one of TWO rumours:

Rumour A - Cultists are going down to 4 ppm. If this is true, the minimum points costs of cultists will go down to 40 points, while Chaos Space Marine minimum will be 55 points. As such, Cultists would still be the preferred choice.

Rumour B - Guardsmen go up to 5 ppm (Cultists unchanged). If this is true, then the minimum points costs of cultists will remain unchanged at 50 points, only 5 points cheaper than the minimum squad of Chaos Space Marines. For 5 points, the benefits of the Chaos Space Marines starts becoming real; equal number of attacks in close combat that are higher strength and higher accuracy, much better armour, better morale, better weapon options.


I'm hoping Rumour B is true.

You're still going to take Cultists in scenario B because you claiming the shooting is better or the melee is better is not true for the price. 5-10 Bolter shots at BS3+ is worse than 10-20 Las shots at BS4+, and I can add the Heavy Stubber without even breaking that price point!

Because shots are all that matters?

5 T4 2+ wounds in cover versus 10 T3 5+ wounds? Not to mention you won't ever get those 20 shots until 12".

Nevermind that 5 bolter shots and 10 autoguns do:

2.2 vs 2.5 wounds to T3
1.7 vs 1.7 wounds to T4
1.1 vs 0.8 wounds to T7

Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

When people are gonna point AP-1 through on, or just ignore cover because Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors? Yeah I'm not buying it.

Also if you're camping an objective it's unlikely you need to move with the Heavy Stubber, which is already 36" for range.

No you're trying too hard to justify Chaos Marines are somehow worth the cost. They're REALLY not worth it even at 11 points.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

Preety much, also there's still the fact that stratagems prefer big units for baseline CSM units.

If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

Preety much, also there's still the fact that stratagems prefer big units for baseline CSM units.

If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

Not for the price and for lower offensive output.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also if you're camping an objective it's unlikely you need to move with the Heavy Stubber, which is already 36" for range.

I don't know, man. My cultists always die to a stiff breeze.

It takes 5 bare Intercessors standing still...5 turns to clear 5 CSM and 2 turns to clear 10 cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not for the price and for lower offensive output.

I don't think the output is lower at all...

If we're talking units standing still the Cultists get 10 S3 and 3 S4. The CSM get 10 S4 at a better BS. It doesn't seem like a distinction worth being concerned about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also if you're camping an objective it's unlikely you need to move with the Heavy Stubber, which is already 36" for range.

I don't know, man. My cultists always die to a stiff breeze.

It takes 5 bare Intercessors standing still...5 turns to clear 5 CSM and 2 turns to clear 10 cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not for the price and for lower offensive output.

I don't think the output is lower at all...

If we're talking units standing still the Cultists get 10 S3 and 3 S4. The CSM get 10 S4 at a better BS. It doesn't seem like a distinction worth being concerned about.

So if they're standing still, why is the Heavy Stubber moving in your previous scenario? If they're standing still, why pay more for only 24" of effectiveness?
And if we're just clearing units like in your first sentence, why pay more?

More importantly, why are you trying to justify a bad unit just like you did with Warp Talons before? Is it hard to accept some units are just useless and that's the end of it?

Dandelion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I’d rather they bump the points on good units than drop the points on bad ones. Plus, it seems that every faction will get drops, so it’s not like any one faction is going to get all that far ahead of others (though maybe some will, but I dunno). All we’ve done is add more models to both sides for the same points. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1500 pt game now would be comparable in size to a 2000 pt game at the start of 8th.

I understand the sentiment, but I'd rather the opposite.

I play 1500 games, and there isn't much fat in the lists to accomodate points hikes, particularly as I don't have many 'alternative options' in my Drukhari codex.

You can always adjust the point limit. If things go up, but you want to take the same units then you can play 1750 pts. The inverse is not so true, there is a hard limit as to how cheap you can make things, ie 0. The closer you get to 0 the less room there is for balancing units.
Hypothetically, if all the points in the game doubled, would you play at 1500 pts or 3000 pts?

I don't play in a vacuum, I play at the points limit of my local scene, so I can't just choose to play 1650 instead.

Karol wrote:
Well it is one more squad. My army will get 95pts. for that I can get 5 GK strikes and have 10pts left over to buy extra gear, if GK ever get stuff that costs that much and is worth taking. So it is improvment .

Its an improvement but not enough to compare them with SM / Primaris.

Regarding the Daemon Prince decrease, I certainly hope this applies to ALL datasheets of Daemon Princes whether CSM, Tson or DG. The precedent was set in the last FAQ that these 3 are all the same Datasheet for the purposes of the Ro3.

It would be counter to that FAQ to give each a different points cost if they are "all the same datasheet"

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

You're not counting on their durability, you're counting on forcing your opponent to focus on other things. If they want your obsec dead, the difference in effort to remove Cultists vs Marines is negligible.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

You're not counting on their durability, you're counting on forcing your opponent to focus on other things. If they want your obsec dead, the difference in effort to remove Cultists vs Marines is negligible.

Not neglieble but considering how brittle csm armies are...

Daemon Princes should probably all be the same, though ideally they lock psychic powers to Codexes as they did with Eldar (e.g. a Thousand Son's warptime or null zone only benefits other Thousand Sons, etc..).

 Galef wrote:
Regarding the Daemon Prince decrease, I certainly hope this applies to ALL datasheets of Daemon Princes whether CSM, Tson or DG. The precedent was set in the last FAQ that these 3 are all the same Datasheet for the purposes of the Ro3.

It would be counter to that FAQ to give each a different points cost if they are "all the same datasheet"

They aren't and certainly DG and ts ones don't need it compared to the others.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well it is one more squad. My army will get 95pts. for that I can get 5 GK strikes and have 10pts left over to buy extra gear, if GK ever get stuff that costs that much and is worth taking. So it is improvment .

Its an improvement but not enough to compare them with SM / Primaris.

I do not know that. It is a free squad. I will ask the shop owner if he still has the 5 man strike squad for sale. If I don't buy the CA, I could buy them.

Fingers crossed that Terminators of all stripes get another reduction and Aggressors get bumped up. Assault Centurions are too cheap now as well, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

The base-line Predator has no business being more expensive than a Vindicator.

Reivers ... really can't come down in price any, and price isn't their problem in the first place. Being a troop profile in the Elite slot with no weapon upgrades to make them worth using is their problem.

The Leman Russ Demolisher needs a bump. I don't begrudge them the updated Demo Cannon so much, but double-tapping with that gun for less than a regular Russ is barking insanity.

All of the Daemon troop choices are over-priced.

The basic Custodian Guard and Wardens are over-priced. So is the Contemptor dread.

Pb are overpriced?

 harlokin wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I’d rather they bump the points on good units than drop the points on bad ones. Plus, it seems that every faction will get drops, so it’s not like any one faction is going to get all that far ahead of others (though maybe some will, but I dunno). All we’ve done is add more models to both sides for the same points. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1500 pt game now would be comparable in size to a 2000 pt game at the start of 8th.

I understand the sentiment, but I'd rather the opposite.

I play 1500 games, and there isn't much fat in the lists to accomodate points hikes, particularly as I don't have many 'alternative options' in my Drukhari codex.

You can always adjust the point limit. If things go up, but you want to take the same units then you can play 1750 pts. The inverse is not so true, there is a hard limit as to how cheap you can make things, ie 0. The closer you get to 0 the less room there is for balancing units.
Hypothetically, if all the points in the game doubled, would you play at 1500 pts or 3000 pts?

I don't play in a vacuum, I play at the points limit of my local scene, so I can't just choose to play 1650 instead.

Couldn’t you talk to whoever decides the point limits then? If everything went up in points, I’m sure he or she would be open to the suggestion. I mean, 1500 points is just as arbitrary as 1790 pts, the only difference is how big of a game you want.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a pretty narrow space to be "better". So, maybe you'll edge it out with a heavy stubber...that is heavy and will hit on 5s... And realistically speaking the CSM will be double those numbers more often.

It's not about the shooting at this point. It's about paying for something that doesn't perform, whether it be Cultists or Marines. If I'm going to pay a troop tax for something that just sits on an objective and dies I might as well pay for Cultists.

Preety much, also there's still the fact that stratagems prefer big units for baseline CSM units.

If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

Not for the price and for lower offensive output.

The offense is actually a lot higher. 12" rapid fire rarely happens. The melle is also significantly in the CSM favor as well - so at short range the lack of ranged damage is made up for in melle. at 5/11 there is basically no reason to take a cultist over a CSM imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Pb are overpriced?

And Bloodletters?

So basically gw is just saying that csm are inferior to loyalist marines? The fact that they're cheaper means gw has no plans on giving them better rules in comparison to loyalists.

So there you go. Fought in the hh. Survived 10000 years in the eye of terror. Not as good as thin blooded 20 umpteenth founding loyalists.

It's even worse when you look at the new ba rules coming in pa3. Gw has a definite bias.

Really hoping standard CSMs and Chosen get a point decrease, along with Obliterators and Cult Marines, they just all seem too expensive for what they do.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So basically gw is just saying that csm are inferior to loyalist marines? The fact that they're cheaper means gw has no plans on giving them better rules in comparison to loyalists.

So there you go. Fought in the hh. Survived 10000 years in the eye of terror. Not as good as thin blooded 20 umpteenth founding loyalists.

It's even worse when you look at the new ba rules coming in pa3. Gw has a definite bias.

Yup

The Newman wrote:
Fingers crossed that Terminators of all stripes get another reduction and Aggressors get bumped up. Assault Centurions are too cheap now as well, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

The base-line Predator has no business being more expensive than a Vindicator.

Reivers ... really can't come down in price any, and price isn't their problem in the first place. Being a troop profile in the Elite slot with no weapon upgrades to make them worth using is their problem.

The Leman Russ Demolisher needs a bump. I don't begrudge them the updated Demo Cannon so much, but double-tapping with that gun for less than a regular Russ is barking insanity.

All of the Daemon troop choices are over-priced.

The basic Custodian Guard and Wardens are over-priced. So is the Contemptor dread.

Min assualt cent squad is comparable in cost to a redemptor dread.
They move half as fast.
They have less range
Less wounds
Less toughness

A +1 save
Way more attacks
Way more total shots of less quality.

They are perfectly balanced when you compare them to a redemptor. Know what they aren't auto include when they can't deep strike into opponents face? Because you will NEVER use their CC stats without spamming the unit. Assault cents are just too slow to use. It is the stratagems and warlord traits that make them broken - so remove those.

Dev cents are actually overcosted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So basically gw is just saying that csm are inferior to loyalist marines? The fact that they're cheaper means gw has no plans on giving them better rules in comparison to loyalists.

So there you go. Fought in the hh. Survived 10000 years in the eye of terror. Not as good as thin blooded 20 umpteenth founding loyalists.

It's even worse when you look at the new ba rules coming in pa3. Gw has a definite bias.

CSM have been driven mad with hatred and daemonic influences. It certainly decreases their abilities compared fresh marines who are much better supplied and stoic and can control themselves better. Something I'd like to see is the ability to take a chainsword for 1 point on their standard bolter CSM in addition. This way wed have them costing the same with the SM unit shooting better (on turn 2 maybe) and the CSM assaulting better (on turn 2 maybe). Would be perfectly fair.

Bs, chainsword for free, atsknf should have a price.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spiky 17 went down 30 points. That is a big deal. Or basically you get free autocannons on all your 5 man marine units.

Again, you're better served by Cultists so you can get weapons and units that actually kill stuff.

55 points compared to 50 is pretty much nothing. ESP if you are getting +3 CP for that detachment. They survive better - and they also shoot better if stationary. Also getting benefit from traits. If Alpha legion (seems to be another good choice) they are MUCH more survivable than cultists.

I will say, the ineffectiveness of the standard Chaos Space Marine compared to the standard Loyalist Space Marine is really stupid, and doesn't make much sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
55 points compared to 50 is pretty much nothing. ESP if you are getting +3 CP for that detachment. They survive better - and they also shoot better if stationary. Also getting benefit from traits. If Alpha legion (seems to be another good choice) they are MUCH more survivable than cultists.

RC is the *only* situation where that math works, and that assumes the rumor about cultists going back to 4ppm is false, which, if true, shoots that whole theory in the foot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

More importantly, why are you trying to justify a bad unit just like you did with Warp Talons before? Is it hard to accept some units are just useless and that's the end of it?

LOL, ok.

Let's play a game. Below are two tables. Each has a set of data for one of 3 units (Cultists, CSM, and Bolt Rifle Primaris). No traits or bonuses. These units are all the same total price (5 point cultists, 11 CSM, 17 primaris). Any fractional models are still counted, so 3.2 Primaris would get 3.2 and 6.4 shots respectively. Each mode is a different position within the battlefield (i.e. RF range, moving, etc).

The first table is damage dealt by the unit. Damage dealt numbers have been multiplied by a common factor to prevent backing into the result. Please rank the units A,B, and C as to which you think is best. Please also determine which you think is Cultist, CSM, and Primaris.

The second table is damage received by the unit. Please rank units D, E, and F as to which you think it best. Please also determine which you think is Cultist, CSM, and Primaris.

Darsath wrote:
I will say, the ineffectiveness of the standard Chaos Space Marine compared to the standard Loyalist Space Marine is really stupid, and doesn't make much sense.

It's really not. It probably comes down to gear. Astartes are well supplied by the imperium. The dark mechanicus pales in comparison to the imperium. Ammo/optics are all much better for standard marines. Not to mention stable psychology. Standard astartes should be better soldiers than CSM. CSM should be better bezerkers.