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craggy wrote:
stupid question: Crusaders, DCA, Arcos...and Repentia Superiors...they don't take up slots, right? So can I just take loads of them? I remember seeing some units (like the Court Of The Archon) that had "if you include x unit, you can take y-number of these and they don't use up a slot" but there doesn't seem to be a restriction to the number of priestly buddies or whip ladies I can take.

Well if by loads you mean three, then yeah.

Rule of 3 kicks in pretty quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KestrelM1 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Other than the inability to take an extra boltgun taped to your current boltgun, how have Sisters Superior been nerfed? Your basic squads can still bring 3 special weapons thanks to combis, no?

Yeah, despite losing Storm Bolters, Sister Superiors still have some interesting options. Twin Bolt Pistols, Hand Flamers, Inferno Pistols, and Plasma Pistol/Combi Plasma all add some interesting options to choose from.

Also, for you bloody rose fans out there, twin chainsword

the_scotsman wrote:

Also, for you bloody rose fans out there, twin chainsword

I don't think that's possible...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't be too despairing, I didn't say mech is dead or uninteresting. For example, my Bloody Rose list is looking at using loads of Zephyrim and Celestine, and then anyone else rocking up behind them in Rhinos.

We still do mech best - even with the Sister Superior nerf, we still have a whole buttfuckload of special weapons in our army, and our heavy weapon infantry can move (re: disembark) and shoot without penalty.

I am using my Argent Shroud infantry to close quickly in my Argent Shroud metal-girls list, but the reason I'm planning on Rhino-rushing with Bloody Rose is speed. Sororitas still prefer to be <12" away or in melee, so I think mech is a good way to get there Turn 2, and smoke generators are a good way to endure Turn 1.

It's a great way to get characters pre-positioned for deep-striking Zephyrim, or to keep up with Zephyrim deployed on the board (for example).

it's not so much that mech is either of those things, just to me looking to be inefficient unless your sending rhino's down the opponents teeth, as your pointing out. i just preferred the repressor most out of the carpark and id be less liable to build a list with it or an immolator as of now.

I also recognize I overemphasize on Storm bolters, but it still just gauls me that something so basic that we can have on multiple sisters in the same squad, is now not allowed on the superior, especially when i want to go cheap as possible but optimize downwind shots. yeah, we still have other options for them, but ill glare at that and blessed bolts getting an indirect hit regardless. it definately still works if you've got enough threats instead of through blistering speed.. and there's more than enough of that to take attention.

It's definitely odd. I fail to see what makes a stormbolters more powerful than a combi plas/melta on them.

I would say it feels like a glaring oversight if it wasn't for Legends just coming oit

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's definitely odd. I fail to see what makes a stormbolters more powerful than a combi plas/melta on them.

I would say it feels like a glaring oversight if it wasn't for Legends just coming oit

the cynical answer is that people with current sisters armies will have to buy at least SOME new minis to replace their stormbolter superior sisters

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's definitely odd. I fail to see what makes a stormbolters more powerful than a combi plas/melta on them.

I would say it feels like a glaring oversight if it wasn't for Legends just coming oit

In my opinion it's Two things.

1. The cost difference between a Plasma and a SB is the exact cost of buying another whole sister.

2. Mono kitting a unit gives it a direct specialized role and target in an edition where generalists are heavily punished. A full bolter/sb unit is dedicated to killing chaff, and becomes quite good at it.

Tel11 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's definitely odd. I fail to see what makes a stormbolters more powerful than a combi plas/melta on them.

I would say it feels like a glaring oversight if it wasn't for Legends just coming oit

In my opinion it's Two things.

1. The cost difference between a Plasma and a SB is the exact cost of buying another whole sister.

2. Mono kitting a unit gives it a direct specialized role and target in an edition where generalists are heavily punished. A full bolter/sb unit is dedicated to killing chaff, and becomes quite good at it.

To be fair though, you're only gaining 2 more boltgun shots. I guess the worry was that blessed bolts would be OP, but if that's the case what's the difference between 16 shots and 20 honestly speaking? Especially compared to other units out there. They could've made the stormbolters cost more for characters too, wouldn't be the first weapon with two separate costs.

I dunno, in the grand scheme of things it's not the worst, at least sisters can still take boltguns on the sarge equivalent. You could be like guard and be pretty much locked into pistol/cqc weapon for what is supposed to be a ranged army

Tel11 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
It's definitely odd. I fail to see what makes a stormbolters more powerful than a combi plas/melta on them.

I would say it feels like a glaring oversight if it wasn't for Legends just coming oit

In my opinion it's Two things.

1. The cost difference between a Plasma and a SB is the exact cost of buying another whole sister.

2. Mono kitting a unit gives it a direct specialized role and target in an edition where generalists are heavily punished. A full bolter/sb unit is dedicated to killing chaff, and becomes quite good at it.

I completely agree with you. It is worth the consideration however, to put a melta pistol on a sister superior. Its basically a 6 inch melta bomb for 7 points. obviously these are the first things to be cut if you are looking for points due to how infrequently this comes up. But a bit of them splashed into a unit here and there won't break the bank or hurt efficiency too much when the opportunity to use them comes up.

That said, I personally don't run them as I lean closer to your alignment with unit efficiency and singularity of purpose.

Maybe Tel, but even that rings hollow to me considering the models i can think in other armies of that throw quite a few shots downwind. or can use their bolter variants in more ways than the rapid fire variant at better effectiveness. killing chaff is doable as is.

*sigh* anyway, id say the Rhino is the transport to go for now unless you have a specific plan in mind with the other two. im hearing conflicts on how say, targeting a repressor with some strategems could affect units inside, but even if it works, i can't imagine for how long that will be the case. works for me, less effort and frills.

Not written any lists yet but I'm thinking of running an infantry heavy argent shroud force with a few decent blobs of sisters running forward pumping out fire backed up by the cannonness. Will be most definitely taking a couple of units of mortifiers and 3 excorcists too.

I definitley don't think a combi weapon is a bad choice, and in argent shroud mass charging sisters playstyle I think it has some really interesting applications.

I was just approaching it from a raw efficiency, grit your teeth competitive viewpoint. Another body, another wound, and 2-4 bolter shots vs. 1-2 plasma shots. Embedded special/heavies also have the awkward issue of often being in range of either bolter efficient targets, or special/heavy weapon targets, but not nessecarily both, and if you can be in range for both that often forces you to move in a way that's not objective efficient. It's just an issue with generalists who have a spread of different short range weapons in one squad.

Ultimately it's a moot point, and the better question is combi, pistol, or bolt gun. I lean towards boltgun for reasons stated above.

I will admit, I was first an eldar player so that's left a serious imprint on how I look at things, and without real playtesting theres no way to fully appriciate the potential effectiveness of slapping melta in a BSS and being about to near guarantee 6 damage to vehicles around the board.

I just tend to view bss as more for board control and CP than as a tool for removal.

I think a combi-plasma might not be a bad way to go for sister superiors. gives you a good way to handle heavier infantry that you'd otherwise have to close to melta range to really deal with.

course another option is to take a superior with combi metla, and put melta's on 2 of your sisters and just dial the melta up to 11

For my planned infantry horde with Valorous heart, combi melta on superior and as many meltas as the regular sisters can carry. For the stormbolters squads that push up the table, they'll get a combo plas since that combos decently with the sacred bolt ability.

If it was any other army, combiplas all the way, but since sisters don't get regular plas may as well just take the weapons that match up with what the squad gets. Honestly I'll probably stick combimeltas on almost anyone that can carry one. Maybe give the odd canoness an inferno pistol, but for the most part I feel they're usually in places to hit way above their weight with melta, at least it's worked for me with my alpha legion and lamenters marine armies. Let's them deal with problems developing in your line usually in my experience, and worst case scenario it misses, unlike plasma.

I feel like sisters need to maximize their special weapons taken if they're going infantry heavy. Trying to go a pure approach of one unit getting all the weapons and another is just stock just makes target priority easy for the opponent. Yes you'll have less sisters overall, but each squad is a threat down to the last woman, and that's what I care about with a trait that focuses on serious durability.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Other than the inability to take an extra boltgun taped to your current boltgun, how have Sisters Superior been nerfed? Your basic squads can still bring 3 special weapons thanks to combis, no?

Well, yes, other than the way in which they've been nerfed, they've not been nerfed, it's true.

I thought the statement made was that they were nerfed in a way that made then intelligible to bring special weapons. I think that was a weird way to say it if all that's missing is an extra boltgun. Hardly worth worrying about, I'd think.

This is following a conversation about the viability of committing to mech sisters, which will have a far greater swing in your army's potential performance than a couple of BS 3+ Str 4 AP0 D1 attacks.

the_scotsman wrote:

craggy wrote:
stupid question: Crusaders, DCA, Arcos...and Repentia Superiors...they don't take up slots, right? So can I just take loads of them? I remember seeing some units (like the Court Of The Archon) that had "if you include x unit, you can take y-number of these and they don't use up a slot" but there doesn't seem to be a restriction to the number of priestly buddies or whip ladies I can take.

Well if by loads you mean three, then yeah.

Rule of 3 kicks in pretty quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KestrelM1 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Other than the inability to take an extra boltgun taped to your current boltgun, how have Sisters Superior been nerfed? Your basic squads can still bring 3 special weapons thanks to combis, no?

Yeah, despite losing Storm Bolters, Sister Superiors still have some interesting options. Twin Bolt Pistols, Hand Flamers, Inferno Pistols, and Plasma Pistol/Combi Plasma all add some interesting options to choose from.

Also, for you bloody rose fans out there, twin chainsword

Inferno pistols, plasma pistols, an combi weapons are mostly gak on Sister superiors.

IP is impractical and unlikely to ever get a chance to shoot, plasma pistols are always stupid, combi weapons are only good in units that already have 2 of the weapon being combi-ed, why would you WANT double bolt pistol?

Hf and Condemnor are cheap but offer no help.

The SB was a 2pt gun that did as much damage as a flamer and had FOUR shots that benefited from blessed bolts.

It was massively better than any othe SS equipment option and losing it is a big loss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Other than the inability to take an extra boltgun taped to your current boltgun, how have Sisters Superior been nerfed? Your basic squads can still bring 3 special weapons thanks to combis, no?

Well, yes, other than the way in which they've been nerfed, they've not been nerfed, it's true.

I thought the statement made was that they were nerfed in a way that made then intelligible to bring special weapons. I think that was a weird way to say it if all that's missing is an extra boltgun. Hardly worth worrying about, I'd think.

This is following a conversation about the viability of committing to mech sisters, which will have a far greater swing in your army's potential performance than a couple of BS 3+ Str 4 AP0 D1 attacks.

Why would it have a far greater swing when the answer is a pretty straightforward 'mech sisters isn't very good, bring 3 exorcists and a rhino if you want but immolators and repressors are mostly for friendly games'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For my planned infantry horde with Valorous heart, combi melta on superior and as many meltas as the regular sisters can carry. For the stormbolters squads that push up the table, they'll get a combo plas since that combos decently with the sacred bolt ability.

If it was any other army, combiplas all the way, but since sisters don't get regular plas may as well just take the weapons that match up with what the squad gets. Honestly I'll probably stick combimeltas on almost anyone that can carry one. Maybe give the odd canoness an inferno pistol, but for the most part I feel they're usually in places to hit way above their weight with melta, at least it's worked for me with my alpha legion and lamenters marine armies. Let's them deal with problems developing in your line usually in my experience, and worst case scenario it misses, unlike plasma.

I feel like sisters need to maximize their special weapons taken if they're going infantry heavy. Trying to go a pure approach of one unit getting all the weapons and another is just stock just makes target priority easy for the opponent. Yes you'll have less sisters overall, but each squad is a threat down to the last woman, and that's what I care about with a trait that focuses on serious durability.

See, I see it as the exact opposite. If you're going infantry heavy maximize your bodies and take only the specials you really need.

11 points for a combi-plasma is too much for a gun that's more likely to kill 20pts of your army than a significant amount of theirs.

Target priority you can manipulate by making large squads with meltas (and morale protection) and small squads with stormbolters. Sure, they can try to target out the meltas, but it'll take 8-13 kills to do it. You could spend tons of points to make the one remaining sister in a unit is always spooky, or you could spend points on making it almost impossible to get to the last girl.

Look at it like this, SoB don't really care about morale, and losing 12 sisters out of a 15 sister squad would leave you with 3 melta shots. Losing 12 sisters out of 3 squads of 5 wirh doublemelta/combi would ALSO leave you with 3 melta shots but one is a loss of 108pts and the other loses 164.

For bloody rose double bolt pistols makes a lot of sense.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For my planned infantry horde with Valorous heart, combi melta on superior and as many meltas as the regular sisters can carry. For the stormbolters squads that push up the table, they'll get a combo plas since that combos decently with the sacred bolt ability.

If it was any other army, combiplas all the way, but since sisters don't get regular plas may as well just take the weapons that match up with what the squad gets. Honestly I'll probably stick combimeltas on almost anyone that can carry one. Maybe give the odd canoness an inferno pistol, but for the most part I feel they're usually in places to hit way above their weight with melta, at least it's worked for me with my alpha legion and lamenters marine armies. Let's them deal with problems developing in your line usually in my experience, and worst case scenario it misses, unlike plasma.

I feel like sisters need to maximize their special weapons taken if they're going infantry heavy. Trying to go a pure approach of one unit getting all the weapons and another is just stock just makes target priority easy for the opponent. Yes you'll have less sisters overall, but each squad is a threat down to the last woman, and that's what I care about with a trait that focuses on serious durability.

This is where Triumph of St Katherine finds its use cases.

You either have to take out Triumph which will allow the sisters up, or risk spending most of the game trying to chew through everything else.

Seems like miracle dice would pair well with overheated plasma. Not that Sisters have a huge amount of it kicking around. Takes the risk out and you don’t need to castle up around re-roll buffs.

My infantry horde is a mix. 3 Storm Bolter/Bolter squads (10 girl), 2 Storm Bolter/Bolter throwaway squads (5 girl), 1 melta/combi-melta squad (10 girls), 3 Heavy Bolter/Bolter objective sitter squads (5 girls).

Those are my troops. The little squads cover the flanks or squat on objectives.

Heavy Support is 3x10 Retributors, 2 with 4x Multi-meltas, 1 with 4x Heavy Flamers.

Fast Attack is 1x melta Seraphim, 1x hand flamer Seraphim, 1x melta Dominions

Elites is mostly characters but also 1x10 Celestians with meltas/combi-meltas

Lemondish wrote:
I think that was a weird way to say it if all that's missing is an extra boltgun. Hardly worth worrying about, I'd think.

A full third of your blessed bolts firepower goes with that stormbolter.

I'm not understanding the Plasmagun hate. Sisters have multiple ways to avoid them exploding.

OooML +1 to hit
Miracle Dice
Cherub dice
Re-rolls from Cannoness.
Moment of grace (you can use this after you've rolled even)

There's probably more.

It's also the same range profile as the bolters they carry. You trade double strength, more AP for 2 less shots when in RF (assuming blessed bolts)

@ERJAK, you said you used to be an eldar player right? Probably explains our difference in approach a bit. I'm used to guard where if you're going with a loadout, every squad gets that loadout unless you're taking something ridiculous like 200+ guardsmen. You can't really afford to mix and match with footslogging infantry, especially with such short ranged weapons. Yeah a squad or two with stormbolters isn't a bad idea to camp an objective, but anything going up the table should be uniform in my experience. Even with all the Valorous heart buffs, sisters are not invincible, you need redundancy. Unless you plan on all the melta squads going one way and the Bolter squads go the other for some odd reason, and even there a fast opponent will just redeploy and not care.

I also plan on no vehicle bigger than a mortifier so that's going to explain some of the difference too. I'm not planning on anything with a rhino chassis, I'm just going to double down on infantry. Basically overwhelm their target priority to the point where they're going to be firing lascannons at sisters because they don't have anything else to target. With that kind of list, every squad needs its own way to deal with a rogue tank, monster, or knight in their way.

For a hybrid list like youre talking yeah, maybe you don't need to double down as much, but for pure infantry like I'm talking I think melta spam is a must. You're going to have more bolters than you know what to do with for infantry, all you need from there is a weapon that can kill tanks and you're golden. And since sisters have ways to survive morale shock, that makes enemies finish off squads rather than risking two meltas just sticking around and smacking a tank around. Anytime you can force an opponent to finish off a squad will usually mean they have to waste some shots that could've done more damage in a bigger squad, which can save you models in the long run.

But yeah that's just my experience. I'm also used to infantry that die to a stiff breeze so it may turn out this is a bit overkill after I play with it a bit.

I really don't want all squads to have same loadout. It is boring both visually and gameplay wise.

And about pistols. I think hand flamer should be OK for flamer squads, Bloody Rose in particular. If you have other flamers you need to get pretty close anyway. As BR the hand flamer gets bonus AP. And of course you can use it in close combat, which is something you might want to do as Bloody Rose.

Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

the_scotsman wrote:

craggy wrote:
stupid question: Crusaders, DCA, Arcos...and Repentia Superiors...they don't take up slots, right? So can I just take loads of them? I remember seeing some units (like the Court Of The Archon) that had "if you include x unit, you can take y-number of these and they don't use up a slot" but there doesn't seem to be a restriction to the number of priestly buddies or whip ladies I can take.

Well if by loads you mean three, then yeah.

Rule of 3 kicks in pretty quick.

It does. In matched play.
(I did forget about the Rule Of Three, TBF but also it does only affect Battleforged armies in one mode of play)

I have now gotten in 5 games with the Dex. All of you foot Sisters enthusiasts can have them, I don't care about their effectiveness, I don't want to play them. I have been running a Brigade with BSS doubled up with 2IP and 4SB in Repressors.

Two Exo's and a unit of Mortifiers for HS, three Seraphim squads for FA (2 at 5 girls with IP and one at 10 with HF to make them a cheap escort for Celestine). There is a repentia bomb to fill out my Elites who ride along with the 2 Canoness.

I am pleasantly surprised at the fix for Exo's. They were terribly inconsistent for me with the Index and Betadex. Mortifiers are scary enough to cause trouble enough to get everyone close.

My biggest issue is deciding which Conviction to stick with. It's been smooth sailing in all my games save for an early one against IH that I used a lot more foot than I'm used too.

I tend to build up enough MD early on that keep the list going as my CP's start to die out. Not a gigantic boost, but certainly happy overall.

Sticking true to my word, ERJAK I have some NoS Sisters for you!

craggy wrote:

It does. In matched play.
(I did forget about the Rule Of Three, TBF but also it does only affect Battleforged armies in one mode of play)

Not even that. It is not a matched play rule, it is a tournament suggestion.

 dracpanzer wrote:
I have now gotten in 5 games with the Dex. All of you foot Sisters enthusiasts can have them, I don't care about their effectiveness, I don't want to play them. I have been running a Brigade with BSS doubled up with 2IP and 4SB in Repressors.

Two Exo's and a unit of Mortifiers for HS, three Seraphim squads for FA (2 at 5 girls with IP and one at 10 with HF to make them a cheap escort for Celestine). There is a repentia bomb to fill out my Elites who ride along with the 2 Canoness.

I am pleasantly surprised at the fix for Exo's. They were terribly inconsistent for me with the Index and Betadex. Mortifiers are scary enough to cause trouble enough to get everyone close.

My biggest issue is deciding which Conviction to stick with. It's been smooth sailing in all my games save for an early one against IH that I used a lot more foot than I'm used too.

I tend to build up enough MD early on that keep the list going as my CP's start to die out. Not a gigantic boost, but certainly happy overall.

Sticking true to my word, ERJAK I have some NoS Sisters for you!

I'm confused. You sound like you've had a good experience with the army, but say you're done with them? Are they too good? Just not your play style?

craggy wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
I have now gotten in 5 games with the Dex. All of you foot Sisters enthusiasts can have them, I don't care about their effectiveness, I don't want to play them. I have been running a Brigade with BSS doubled up with 2IP and 4SB in Repressors.

Two Exo's and a unit of Mortifiers for HS, three Seraphim squads for FA (2 at 5 girls with IP and one at 10 with HF to make them a cheap escort for Celestine). There is a repentia bomb to fill out my Elites who ride along with the 2 Canoness.

I am pleasantly surprised at the fix for Exo's. They were terribly inconsistent for me with the Index and Betadex. Mortifiers are scary enough to cause trouble enough to get everyone close.

My biggest issue is deciding which Conviction to stick with. It's been smooth sailing in all my games save for an early one against IH that I used a lot more foot than I'm used too.

I tend to build up enough MD early on that keep the list going as my CP's start to die out. Not a gigantic boost, but certainly happy overall.

Sticking true to my word, ERJAK I have some NoS Sisters for you!

I'm confused. You sound like you've had a good experience with the army, but say you're done with them? Are they too good? Just not your play style?

I have a mountain of painted metals I have accumulated over 20+ years I love. Don't need the plastics...