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I can definitely say I'm glad I didn't go all-in on Repentia. Dodged a bullet there. Honestly they might still be okay with the BR stratagem, but they won't wreck Knights nearly as efficiently as before. Maybe GW decided that Repentia were OP for some reason?

Also, Condemnor Boltgun is 5 points now? Give me a break! That thing was worthless at 1 point.

Storm Bolters, assuming Sisters ones continue to cost the same as Space Marines ones, are going up to 3 points. Not a huge problem. We'll see how many points basic Sisters cost, though. Or have Sisters points values been leaked already?

Secondaries sure but every mission requires holding and taking objectives. Our T3 models can't take lots of punishment so expecting 5 Sisters to hold an objective all game, even as VH and in some kind of cover, is going to result in a loss.

Killing gak doesn't have a very big impact now. The playtesters have all said 9th is a mid board objective holding edition. Durability is going to be more important than offensiveness.

Well the obvious answer is dont just use 5 models to hold an objective

The second is what makes you think you need to hold it all game most games arnt won with maxed out scoreing

The third is that killing still stops your opponent scoreing if my opponent scores 55vp/100 because i killed 90% of his army i only need 56 to win

The 4th is that GW playtesters are notoriously bad GW playtesters did not see stormraven spam or Soup within detatchments, iron hands or the castellan within 8th yet they were kind of obvious. When they say this edition will be about X that assumes that their rules and design are what they think their rules and design are. (Which it never is)

With the nerfs to melee and the need for more durability, it’s looking like more of a win for VH and less so for Bloody Rose.

They need different builds but I think it's a little early to say for sure. VH certainly will have the advantage in terms of maximiseing your score but a well played BR may be better at reducing your opponents BR probably has a higher skill threshold though

As far as melee nerfs go I don't think they are too impactful (except against knights and you should win that match up anyway) I was mostly running MSU anyway so you didn't wrap and the ability to reserve celestine squads, smash connoness, mortifiers, and repentia are all huge potential gains to BR lists.

I mean the biggest change in my BR list (before points change is that for 2 CP my smash cannonness a 5 girl celestian squad with meltas, a min repentia and 3 mortifiers all DS) and thats a big improvement as its let me drop a rhino

tneva82 wrote:
That's why I expect secondaries that don't involve actions and staying alive for a turn be popular. You can pick them after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tabletop tactics have sisters vs gsc. 2k and sister army was around 1700 in 8th ed according to people who have seen it. Condempor boltgun 5pts.

Neever mind everything that was previously here.

Dude does have about a 1700 point list of stuff that wasn't very good kicked up to 2000pts. This is gonna be bad if the marine leaks are true. 20% increase vs marine's 10%.

For bumps:

We're looking at 25 for HB, 8 for the condemnors, canceled by 1 point drops for HKs. So 29 guaranteed. There are 30 battle sisters, figure they went up 2 points each so 60. That's 89 points.

Which means the exorcists, immolators, repentia, arcos, and characters have to eat 211 points of increases between them, when Conflag Exos, repentia, and arcos were already only decent and immolators were terrible.

I'm looking at this compared to the marine leaks and not seeing how we'll be able to win games when their army suddenly goes down 100+ points compared to ours.

We'll make it work. Sisters are in a good position, even with a points increase.

Other armies are far worst than we are and they too get a points bump.

I'll wait for an official points list before getting to worked up over it.

My VH though are loving how 9th ed plays out.

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tabletop tactics have sisters vs gsc. 2k and sister army was around 1700 in 8th ed according to people who have seen it. Condempor boltgun 5pts.

Neever mind everything that was previously here.

Dude does have about a 1700 point list of stuff that wasn't very good kicked up to 2000pts. This is gonna be bad if the marine leaks are true. 20% increase vs marine's 10%[...]

I'm looking at this compared to the marine leaks and not seeing how we'll be able to win games when their army suddenly goes down 100+ points compared to ours.

I don't know, their basic Intercessors are getting an exactly equivalent increase - 17 to 20. Thunderfires, Centurions, the more common Dreadnoughts, are all seeing point increases between 15-60%. When I look at tournament-winning lists and run some rough numbers, it looks like an equivalent points increase.

Archebius wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tabletop tactics have sisters vs gsc. 2k and sister army was around 1700 in 8th ed according to people who have seen it. Condempor boltgun 5pts.

Neever mind everything that was previously here.

Dude does have about a 1700 point list of stuff that wasn't very good kicked up to 2000pts. This is gonna be bad if the marine leaks are true. 20% increase vs marine's 10%[...]

I'm looking at this compared to the marine leaks and not seeing how we'll be able to win games when their army suddenly goes down 100+ points compared to ours.

I don't know, their basic Intercessors are getting an exactly equivalent increase - 17 to 20. Thunderfires, Centurions, the more common Dreadnoughts, are all seeing point increases between 15-60%. When I look at tournament-winning lists and run some rough numbers, it looks like an equivalent points increase.

That's pretty bad in this specific scenario. Keep in mind that the list tabletop tactics had, used terrible SoB units like the Geminae and immolators.

If their tournament winning lists are getting the same bump as our garbage...that's a bit scary.

ERJAK wrote:

Archebius wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tabletop tactics have sisters vs gsc. 2k and sister army was around 1700 in 8th ed according to people who have seen it. Condempor boltgun 5pts.

Neever mind everything that was previously here.

Dude does have about a 1700 point list of stuff that wasn't very good kicked up to 2000pts. This is gonna be bad if the marine leaks are true. 20% increase vs marine's 10%[...]

I'm looking at this compared to the marine leaks and not seeing how we'll be able to win games when their army suddenly goes down 100+ points compared to ours.

I don't know, their basic Intercessors are getting an exactly equivalent increase - 17 to 20. Thunderfires, Centurions, the more common Dreadnoughts, are all seeing point increases between 15-60%. When I look at tournament-winning lists and run some rough numbers, it looks like an equivalent points increase.

That's pretty bad in this specific scenario. Keep in mind that the list tabletop tactics had, used terrible SoB units like the Geminae and immolators.

If their tournament winning lists are getting the same bump as our garbage...that's a bit scary.

Agreed

ERJAK wrote:

Archebius wrote:

I don't know, their basic Intercessors are getting an exactly equivalent increase - 17 to 20. Thunderfires, Centurions, the more common Dreadnoughts, are all seeing point increases between 15-60%. When I look at tournament-winning lists and run some rough numbers, it looks like an equivalent points increase.

That's pretty bad in this specific scenario. Keep in mind that the list tabletop tactics had, used terrible SoB units like the Geminae and immolators.

If their tournament winning lists are getting the same bump as our garbage...that's a bit scary.

Keep in mind that this is all based off incomplete, playtesting points lists and internet leaks. Thunderfire cannons are getting 60% increases. Whirlwinds are getting 50% increases. There are some things, like Chaplain Venerable Dreadnoughts and Leviathan Dreadnoughts, that I haven't seen the point values for. The increases to even their basic troops is in the 20% range. So yeah, when I run rough numbers, I see their 2000 point tournament lists from 2019 getting bumped up to ~2350, or an ~18% increase - but that's partially because the unknown point values of their big 'uns drags down the average.

Also, we haven't had any tournament seasons with the new Codex. Primaris Marines are getting targeted nerfs to their heavy hitters, and smaller point increases to those units that haven't seen much light. It's possible we're getting a more general point increases across the board, which would still leave us in a similar place at the end of the day.

its not really about what happens to our points. Its what happens to theirs. We are going to be generally cheaper regardless.and we dont have the broken stuff.list that other codex's do. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:
its not really about what happens to our points. Its what happens to theirs. We are going to be generally cheaper regardless.and we dont have the broken stuff.list that other codex's do. Lol.

My issue is that we had plenty of units that needed to come down relative to a lot of other armies and that doesn't seem to be happening. Immolators are pretty bad, pengines and Morties are good on paper but were just a bit too expensive for their fragility in practice, retributors and dominions both suffered from their weapon choices being pretty significantly overcosted...or just stormbolters, the Triumph is like 40+ points too expensive as it is and gets screwed over by a lot of the new terrain rules, Celestine was too expensive, the Geminae are terrible. Our entire army when trying to make really competitive lists was Seraphim, Zephyrim, Exorcists, and Battle Sisters.

Meanwhile arguably the best army in the game is seeing point bumps on their best units in line with the bumps on our best units but, AT THE MOMENT(new information pending), seems to be getting significant discounts on THEIR bad units while we don't.

I imagine the bumps to sisters overall are similar to most armies but it's pretty annoying that Space Marines seem to be getting even more preferential treatment.

Sidebar: WTF is up with the bumps to heavy bolters and multimeltas? Lascannons were already better than multimeltas and no one was taking Heavy Bolters on units that didn't have to take them(outside of imperial fists), so how did Lascannons go down 5 points for both infantry and vehicles when multimeltas only went down 2 points for infantry, heavy bolters didn't change, and both went UP 5 points for vehicles? The twin multimelta is FIFTY points now. A Space Marine Eradicator has a better version of the same gun and is only 40pts TOTAL.

There's a rumor multimeltas are going to be heavy 2.

Taikishi wrote:
There's a rumor multimeltas are going to be heavy 2.

Unfortunately, that rumor came from a post by Marshal Valkenhayn in Bolter and Chainsword and is as follows:

"I wonder if Multi-Meltas might go up to 2 shots a piece. Hrm.
Anyway, I can't get the info from those pictures. Anyone seen the cost of LR Crusaders (with gear) and Crusader Squads?"

Just out of curious nature, how do the SOB players plan to use the Living Saint now, given the LOW rules?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just out of curious nature, how do the SOB players plan to use the Living Saint now, given the LOW rules?

Do you mean LoS?

It's largely irrelevant for her. Either you're using her for her bubble, at which point she's surrounded by tons of infantry, or you aren't and it's turn 3 and she's running off to murder things on her own. It's priests and combat canonesses that suffer more from that rule.

Personally i prefer junith for that reason i use junith as an aura bubble and shes cheaper (but that requires a second detatchment)

As to ninth its hard to say without the faq and points she had been stuck between buff and mellee and overpriced for either

The other factor to consider is if we have less models overall her aura may be less valuable. Especially if our fewer models need to spread out more as objectives seem to be more important

U02dah4 wrote:
Personally i prefer junith for that reason i use junith as an aura bubble and shes cheaper (but that requires a second detatchment)

As to ninth its hard to say without the faq and points she had been stuck between buff and mellee and overpriced for either

The other factor to consider is if we have less models overall her aura may be less valuable. Especially if our fewer models need to spread out more as objectives seem to be more important

The opposite is likely true if camping objectives is as critical as people online have been saying it is. Valorous Heart+ Celestine+Heroine makes us some of the most difficult relatively cheap models in the game to remove and the new detachment system makes taking a second detachment just for Junith highly impractical.

ERJAK wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
its not really about what happens to our points. Its what happens to theirs. We are going to be generally cheaper regardless.and we dont have the broken stuff.list that other codex's do. Lol.

My issue is that we had plenty of units that needed to come down relative to a lot of other armies and that doesn't seem to be happening. Immolators are pretty bad, pengines and Morties are good on paper but were just a bit too expensive for their fragility in practice, retributors and dominions both suffered from their weapon choices being pretty significantly overcosted...or just stormbolters, the Triumph is like 40+ points too expensive as it is and gets screwed over by a lot of the new terrain rules, Celestine was too expensive, the Geminae are terrible. Our entire army when trying to make really competitive lists was Seraphim, Zephyrim, Exorcists, and Battle Sisters.

Meanwhile arguably the best army in the game is seeing point bumps on their best units in line with the bumps on our best units but, AT THE MOMENT(new information pending), seems to be getting significant discounts on THEIR bad units while we don't.

I imagine the bumps to sisters overall are similar to most armies but it's pretty annoying that Space Marines seem to be getting even more preferential treatment.

Sidebar: WTF is up with the bumps to heavy bolters and multimeltas? Lascannons were already better than multimeltas and no one was taking Heavy Bolters on units that didn't have to take them(outside of imperial fists), so how did Lascannons go down 5 points for both infantry and vehicles when multimeltas only went down 2 points for infantry, heavy bolters didn't change, and both went UP 5 points for vehicles? The twin multimelta is FIFTY points now. A Space Marine Eradicator has a better version of the same gun and is only 40pts TOTAL.

Thats a lot of gripes and what ifs bit its all relative. So I dont expect this to really be a big deal for us. The cheese is being moved but its still cheese. So we'll go find the new location and munch away.

I'm not worried at all. Everyone will have smaller armies. Its a cheaty way to "make games faster" as is going to five rounds. All cheats.

What upsets me is that they couldnt get gameplay down without those cheats. Reading the new rules, I saw nothing exrraordinarily different other than perhaps reserves? Some additional dice having to be rolled sucks for morale. I just dont see the faster game plY I hoped for nor less dice rolls. bummer.

So out of boredom and curiosity, I'm trying to reverse engineer the points costs of our units based on the TTT list posted.

I'm using a couple of assumptions for this:

1. Infantry will all raise by roughly the same amount. I'm assuming battle sisters, repentia, seraphim, and Arcos will all go up by either 2 or 3 points. This is probably the most flawed of the assumptions because the greater cost of the latter 3 could easily see them increased more than the former, but it makes the math easier so meh.

2. The leaked SM points were correct. This means 5pt condemnors, 5 point HKs and 15 point vehicle heavy bolters.

3. The standard army characters are going up roughly in line with SM point costs, i.e. between 10-15%

4. The points will be even 10s or 5s wherever possible(as seen by the macro plasma incinerator being 30 instead of 31 now).

5. Bad units will go up equal to or less than good units.


So with all that said here's my two sets of guesses.

Assuming Infantry goes up 3 points:

Canoness 55
Canoness 55
Celestine 175
Geminae 34
Repent 80
Repent 80
Rep Sup 40
Rep Sup 40
ArcoFlag 172
Exo 195
Exo 195
ConflagExo 165
Immolator 130
Immolator 130
Seraphim 79
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125

Assuming infantry go up 2 points

Canoness 55
Canoness 55
Celestine 185
Geminae 32
Repent 75
Repent 75
Rep Sup 40
Rep Sup 40
ArcoFlag 150
Exo 215
Exo 215
ConflagExo 185
Immolator 130
Immolator 130
Seraphim 74
Battle Sisters 115
Battle Sisters 115
Battle Sisters 115

Now, obviously these aren't 100% correct because they're both over 2000, but it should be pretty much in the ballpark. Personally, I'm hoping immolators, the geminae, and the conflagration rocket go up more to eat some of the increase for Seraphim and the regular Exo, but beggars can't be choosers.

Great insight, ERJAK - that analysis is really appreciated. I wouldn't be surprised if the real numbers are similar.

I'm still wondering how in depth this FAQ will be, and I have very high hopes for this app. Part of my very much thinks data sheet updates for everyone is possible, but the other part of me expects the bare minimum of fixes to trickle in over time.

Flawed already as exorcists were reported to be same

tneva82 wrote:
Flawed already as exorcists were reported to be same

Firstly, duh. Of course it's flawed. I don't have the CA so it's all just guesswork done for fun. Dunno what you gain by 'well ACKTSCHULLY'ing here but whatever.

Secondly, where was it reported? because that's insane if true. Is it like the 'rumor' that meltas are going to 2 shots that was just idle speculation on B&C? For Exorcists to stay the same with Vehicle HBs going up 5 points they'd have to drop 5 points. They are also arguably the best unit in the codex.

But okay, let's assume that's true and see what we get:

NOTE: This kills my previous assumption that good units are going up less than bad units so I'll be ignoring that.

If true this means that the Non-Exorcist units now have to absorb approximately 300pts worth of increases. So we have to assume a 3 point bump for infantry minimum. With that and the same assumed bump for generic characters, Immolators, the geminae, and Celestine would have to eat 100 pts of increases between them. Keep in mind that's WITH repentia to 16, arcos to 16, seraphim to 14. and battle sisters to 12.

NOTE* Something I forgot to mention is that these are AS EQUIPPED in the TTT video so a canoness would be 55 with the 5 point 10% character nerf AND a 5 point Condemnor.

Here's what it looks like with no change exorcists and flat 3 infantry:

Canoness 55
Canoness 55
Celestine 190
Geminae 36
Repent 80
Repent 80
Rep Sup 40
Rep Sup 40
ArcoFlag 160
Exo 180
Exo 180
ConflagExo 150
Immolator 150
Immolator 150
Seraphim 79
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125

Here's what it looks like with no change Exorcists and Repentia and Arcos (the most expensive infantry) going up 4

Canoness 55
Canoness 55
Celestine 180
Geminae 36
Repent 85
Repent 85
Rep Sup 40
Rep Sup 40
ArcoFlag 170
Exo 180
Exo 180
ConflagExo 150
Immolator 145
Immolator 145
Seraphim 79
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125
Battle Sisters 125

Unless dominions can scout in vehicles again, I can't imagine we'll see another immolator for until the next CA if these are even close to the ballpark of correct.

Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

I meant how taking a Lord of War now costs 6 CP as a detachment. Not LoS.

Celestine is a regular HQ choice, so the LoW detachments are irrelevant for her. Also, souping in a single knight is 'only' 3 CP if I remember correctly.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Are you saying 2+ armor save or are you talking about the 1+ immune to AP thing the new stormshields get?

ERJAK wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Are you saying 2+ armor save or are you talking about the 1+ immune to AP thing the new stormshields get?

Isn't is the same result ? They can only be wounded if they roll 1.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Are you saying 2+ armor save or are you talking about the 1+ immune to AP thing the new stormshields get?

Isn't is the same result ? They can only be wounded if they roll 1.

No-because AP affects 2+ armor models, but it does not affect 1+ armor models.

If you fire a Blessed Bolts Storm Bolter at a Terminator using the current rules for Storm Shields, thy get a 3+ roll if they use their invuln, or, if for some reason they want it to die, they get a 4+ on their armor.
If all Storm Shields are changed to be 4+ Invuln and +1 to Save Characteristic, then they would get a 2+ roll on their armor, even against the AP-2.