Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Are you saying 2+ armor save or are you talking about the 1+ immune to AP thing the new stormshields get?

Isn't is the same result ? They can only be wounded if they roll 1.

No-because AP affects 2+ armor models, but it does not affect 1+ armor models.

If you fire a Blessed Bolts Storm Bolter at a Terminator using the current rules for Storm Shields, thy get a 3+ roll if they use their invuln, or, if for some reason they want it to die, they get a 4+ on their armor.
If all Storm Shields are changed to be 4+ Invuln and +1 to Save Characteristic, then they would get a 2+ roll on their armor, even against the AP-2.

Correct, and the best way to deal with 2++ infantry should they inherit the new stormshield rules is to quit 40k until that isn't a thing anymore.

ERJAK wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Are you saying 2+ armor save or are you talking about the 1+ immune to AP thing the new stormshields get?

Isn't is the same result ? They can only be wounded if they roll 1.

No-because AP affects 2+ armor models, but it does not affect 1+ armor models.

If you fire a Blessed Bolts Storm Bolter at a Terminator using the current rules for Storm Shields, thy get a 3+ roll if they use their invuln, or, if for some reason they want it to die, they get a 4+ on their armor.
If all Storm Shields are changed to be 4+ Invuln and +1 to Save Characteristic, then they would get a 2+ roll on their armor, even against the AP-2.

Correct, and the best way to deal with 2++ infantry should they inherit the new stormshield rules is to quit 40k until that isn't a thing anymore.

Just don't play against Marines. Plenty of other armies to play against.

From the sound of it, this is something that will get sorted out promptly. I cant imagine walls of indestructible Space Marines is what they were going for.

If it wasn't space marines agreed. With master faction less hopeful. Even their fb response gives more weight on "npc factions suck it up" response

As with everything else since the start of 7th, mass volleys of cheap shooting. Even las fire in the realm of 300 shots can down titan's eventually. They will fail their rolls eventually. Also, MW Spam is still a thing. I have to believe GW's reasoning was that you see a shield, you cast smite. Now this completely F's over non-smitey factions, Custodes, etc. But as others have said, the Master Race of 40k gets all the best toys.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As with everything else since the start of 7th, mass volleys of cheap shooting. Even las fire in the realm of 300 shots can down titan's eventually. They will fail their rolls eventually. Also, MW Spam is still a thing. I have to believe GW's reasoning was that you see a shield, you cast smite. Now this completely F's over non-smitey factions, Custodes, etc. But as others have said, the Master Race of 40k gets all the best toys.

Except we have no access to either of those things, and even attempting to field enough stormbolters to deal with 2++ infantry means we basically don't have any anti-armor.

With the point change rumors seeming to indicate a 3pt or more increase to battle sisters, we simply don't have the numbers to be dealing with large numbers of 2++ terminators. At least at their rumored price.

Marines? Try Custodes. T5, 3 wounds, 2++, 6+++ vs psychic mortal wounds.

GW has already hinted about the fix, and I don't like what they implied. Personally, I think the "minimum 1" should be scrapped since results of 0 or less don't break anything. The other options are:

* AP modifies the save characteristic (clunky but how a lot of people think it works)
* Storm Shields add 1 to your saving throw, just like cover
* 1s fail, unmodified or not, but then if they really do want a model like the Bastiladon this change would be harmful to that model, as would "AP modifies save characteristic"

The fix they're likely going to do is to have storm shields have completely different rules depending on who they're equipped on and that's both inelegant and lazy, but also what they hinted at.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

Hard to say for sure without the complete 9th ed. rules and FAQs, but Inquisition can do some neat things without being too expensive. Some can teleport in, allowing you to drop a psychic power like Terrify ahead of a charge, which prevents overwatch. Warding Incantation lets you give an IMPERIUM INFANTRY unit a 5++, which combines well with the 5+++ on your arco-flagellants to make them a little tougher. And Smite is always a nice thing to pull out.

I'm not sure whether you'd see it a lot in competitive play, but there are some fun ways to use Inquisitors in a Sisters army.

As far as the armor saves, I'd echo everyone else. Put enough rounds downrange and you'll eventually you'll hit something squishy.

So GW indicated apparently that it only applies to Crusade forces, IE Primaris Storm Shields, so they are only 3+/5++. There is nothing saying right now that Custodes are running around with naturally impervious armor, believe me I would love that. But there are also no rules about Classic Terminators getting this buff, as they do not have the Crusader bit. I am betting SoB will have an easier time than most killing Space Marines. Maybe not Tau or GK levels of cheese, but you won't be swept off the board turn 2 either.

Don't know where is says it only applies to Crusade Forces. The datasheet itself says add 1 to the save characteristic.

As for small arms fire, assuming no Legends...

A min-sized Dominion squad firing five flamers (4+ combi) will deal between 0 and 2 damage to a unit of 2+ or 2++ Custodes 92.82% of the time. 38% of the time they will do 0 damage and 7.24% of the time the unit will kill a Custodes. 3 in every 5000 volleys will kill two Custodes.


A unit of 15 Battle Sisters with 2 storm bolters, a canoness within 6", Blessed Bolts for the storm bolters, and the entire unit in rapid fire range will deal on between 0 and 3 unsaved wounds against a unit of Custodes using the rules for storm shields on Bladeguard 84.67% of the time. You have a 28.9% chance of killing 1 Custodes with that unit, a 3.3% chance of killing two, and will kill 3 Custodes thirteen in every 10,000 volleys.

1 Custodes with a storm shield: 52 points on the cheap
15 Sisters + a canoness + 2 storm bolters: 184 points not counting the canoness' wargear or shots +1CP

That's 8e points, btw.

Without Blessed Bolts, you kill one 2++ Custodes 14% of the time and max out at 7 probable damage.

5 Dominions with 4 storm bolters, a bolter, a canoness within 6", Blessed Bolts, and everything in rapid fire range will deal 0-3 damage 84.37% of the time against 2++ Custodes, has an 18.57% chance of Killing at least one Custodes, and will kill three Custodes 1 in every 2000 volleys. Without Blessed Bolts this drops to an 81.38 % chance of dealing 0-2 damage, a 4% chance of killing one Custodes, and a 1 in 10,000 chance of killing 2.

The amount of small arms fire you need to take down a unit i is more than I care to simulate @.@

Can we not discuss the theoretical possibility of the 1+ Save in the SOB Tactica until after the rules are published and the FAQs are issued?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
GK levels of cheese...

I will never get used to seeing this.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

A lone Inquisitor is worthwhile considering, ordo Hereticus - fluffy, Greyfax + Celestine - shipable.

2+ Armour Infantry probably helps us more than it hurts us, our heavy hitters have the ap to deal with that while the others sit back and control the board with bodies.

Lammia wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

As a new sister player, i'd like to know if it was worth it to include ally psykers in our armies, or is it a waste ?

Also, with the advent of 2+ armor save infantry, what will be your strategy to bring them down ?

Thanks !

A lone Inquisitor is worthwhile considering, ordo Hereticus - fluffy, Greyfax + Celestine - shipable.

2+ Armour Infantry probably helps us more than it hurts us, our heavy hitters have the ap to deal with that while the others sit back and control the board with bodies.

He means 2++

Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

If you have way to get 1+ then regardless of ap only unmodified roll of 1 fails.

New box has marines with stoim shields that improve save stat by 1. With crusade rules it's possible to combo for 1+ aka 2++. And unless gw intends to have multiple items with name storm shield with different rules no saying terminators and custodians might get it too.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

I'd ignore it - it is scare mongering based on knowing only half the rules - that is then misinterpreted to the extend that the YMDC thread on the issue is 5 pages long

The basic idea is that the storm shield rule on one of the indomitous units gives +1 to Save characteristic not 3++ so logical leap that all Stormshields will be FAQd to work that way

Giving a 2+ model like a terminator a 1+ SV

The spurious argument then goes that AP effects the dice roll not SV. So while conventionally AP3 would make the dice role of 2 a -1 (lower than the save so it would fail). They are arguing that results of dice lower than 1 are modified to 1 but (only natural ones fail on 1+. )

Therefore 2+ models with storm shields are infact 2++

This means accepting the logical leap that the stormshield rule is ubiquitous and that TO's will go with this stretch of logic (which the ones I've heard comment have said its rediculous) and that everyone is going to play SM because SM is broken (Which might be valid however 70% will probably stick to their factions). That all of the SM players will want to spam 2++ on overpriced in terms of damage output slow CC only units. Also that GW wouldnt immediatly faq against that interpretation as it was likely not what they intended.

So dont worry about it - even if all those assumptions are correct just board control and kill by weight of fire and focus the artillery assault terminators are slow once they hit the board. Over priced and under powered. Making them survivable doesn't make them broken it just makes them not garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

If you have way to get 1+ then regardless of ap only unmodified roll of 1 fails.

New box has marines with stoim shields that improve save stat by 1. With crusade rules it's possible to combo for 1+ aka 2++. And unless gw intends to have multiple items with name storm shield with different rules no saying terminators and custodians might get it too.

Its not like theirs 4 different versions of the master of machines (repair rule) in admech to give precedence to such a hypothesis

U02dah4 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

I'd ignore it - it is scare mongering based on knowing only half the rules - that is then misinterpreted to the extend that the YMDC thread on the issue is 5 pages long

The basic idea is that the storm shield rule on one of the indomitous units gives +1 to Save characteristic not 3++ so logical leap that all Stormshields will be FAQd to work that way

Giving a 2+ model like a terminator a 1+ SV

The spurious argument then goes that AP effects the dice roll not SV. So while conventionally AP3 would make the dice role of 2 a -1 (lower than the save so it would fail). They are arguing that results of dice lower than 1 are modified to 1 but (only natural ones fail on 1+. )

Therefore 2+ models with storm shields are infact 2++

This means accepting the logical leap that the stormshield rule is ubiquitous and that TO's will go with this stretch of logic (which the ones I've heard comment have said its rediculous) and that everyone is going to play SM because SM is broken (Which might be valid however 70% will probably stick to their factions). That all of the SM players will want to spam 2++ on overpriced in terms of damage output slow CC only units. Also that GW wouldnt immediatly faq against that interpretation as it was likely not what they intended.

So dont worry about it - even if all those assumptions are correct just board control and kill by weight of fire and focus the artillery assault terminators are slow once they hit the board. Over priced and under powered. Making them survivable doesn't make them broken it just makes them not garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

If you have way to get 1+ then regardless of ap only unmodified roll of 1 fails.

New box has marines with stoim shields that improve save stat by 1. With crusade rules it's possible to combo for 1+ aka 2++. And unless gw intends to have multiple items with name storm shield with different rules no saying terminators and custodians might get it too.

Its not like theirs 4 different versions of the master of machines (repair rule) in admech to give precedence to such a hypothesis

You're wrong about 2 things here:

1. With termies not seeing any bumps(assuming leaks are correct) and most of their weapons coming down, they won't be overpriced in terms of damage if they're also 2++.

2. Weight of fire will not work on 2++ for the majority of armies, especially in 9th. For us, even if your entire list was stormbolters, you wouldn't be able to chew through more than about a squad of termies per turn.

Yeah, worrying about it until we see the rules is silly, but so is downplaying the fact that it'd be Pre-nerf IH level of bs if it happened.

1) Assault termies the ones with stormshields- Don't even see use in BA where they can 8" charge from DS with a 5++ because they are overcosted for their damage output and too slow when units like SG essentially do the same job but are a lot more maneuverable.

They are still from leaked points 23pts PM + equipment isnt that good for 2A hitting on 4's and sure strap on 400pts of characters but then you still and beating the alternatives for damage output/ points or maneuverability only now you spent 850pts (8th) on making 3 5 man terminators work or maybe you wanna spend 1300pts 8th and getting 30 termies effective
But then becauze they are slow and have to stay in buff range cant controle the board

2) this is not the majority of armies thread. Sisters use boltguns - boltguns don't care about 2++ as they have 0AP you direct the high S weaponry at more valuable targets.

10 man Celestian squad (SB) 104pts buffed out -Bolt guns alone will take 1.5 termies a turn and then theirs CC in which they kills 2 for 143pts total(more than the squad) so points are surpassed 40% in one turn

Meamwhile 10 assault terminators 410pts having no guns kill 4.5 sisters so lets call it 50 pts being generous (8th) 8 turns to make points back.

So yeah sure termies might get slightly cheaper - still not efficient

And sisters are by know means the masters of high volume firepower - admech - Tau - guard do it better

U02dah4 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry, I think I missed something. Where are 2++ saves coming from?

I'd ignore it - it is scare mongering based on knowing only half the rules - that is then misinterpreted to the extend that the YMDC thread on the issue is 5 pages long

Uuuh the rule is exact same as in 8th ed. Where 1+=2++ already was a thing. Meganobz had it but they then banned it for meganobz but actual rule interaction that caused it was left alone.

So unless gw actually fixes it any 1+ save stat is 2++. With boxed set alone it's possible and if storm shield is made same it goes even more common. But even without that it IS possible with the new stormshieid unit in box.

Now hopefully gw fixes actual rules so it isn't possible but seeing they let it happen again despite knowing the issue not hopeful. With meganobz it was npc faction. Marines are master race

How is it possible to have a 1+ in the Box Set? The stormshield models get a 2+/4++.

The fact that they nuked it on Meganobz is evidence that they're not going to have to happen to marines - of that they'll also FAQ it out of existence.

rbstr wrote:
How is it possible to have a 1+ in the Box Set? The stormshield models get a 2+/4++.

The fact that they nuked it on Meganobz is evidence that they're not going to have to happen to marines - of that they'll also FAQ it out of existence.

armor indomitus/artificer armor

Best way to kill terminators is weight of attacks.

Back when Terminators had 3+ save on 2d6 and a single wound it wasn't lascannons that killed terminators in droves, it was bolter fire, shuriken fire, las fire.

Forcing a dozen saves or more on a 2+ model that is slow and not all that scary compared to some melee units isn't all that difficult.

2++ save is worthless vs Smite or any other attack that does strictly mortal wounds. Or even mortal wounds in addition too regular wounds.

And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Or take a Callidus assassin. Her phase sword is S4, -3AP, Dam 2 and inv saves cannot be taken against it. So those very pricey terminators melt as fast as a gaurdsman wearing a tshirt. Her pistol causes D3 Mortal wounds if you hit and then beat Ld8 on 3D6. So hitting on a 2+ and doing 1-3 mortal wounds and then another 2.9 damage in melee, so 1-3 terminators dead before they even get to swing back and the Callidus has 4+ inv in melee.

My go to Ass. is going to be a Culexus but if I ever face 2++ save models I'll switch to the Callidus for the measly 2CP.

jivardi wrote:
And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Well... sisters can pump out around 4 1/2 moral wounds in one go, but it does cost a command point and nine repentia.
Sisters just aren't good at putting out mortal wounds.

A.T. wrote:

jivardi wrote:
And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Well... sisters can pump out around 4 1/2 moral wounds in one go, but it does cost a command point and nine repentia.
Sisters just aren't good at putting out mortal wounds.

Callidus or Inquisitor (lone) takes care of that. Inquisitor doesn't mess up our Convictions, neither does the Assassin. Both are reasonably cheap.

My list has Greyfax in it for Smite and for Deny rolls.

Callidus can be held off the board and then deploy anywhere more than D3+3 from an enemy unit. So a roll of a 1 means a 4" charge. Very difficult to fail and especially so if you burn 1 cp to reroll. Sure you have to roll both dice but rerolling snake eyes or a 1 and 2 are always worth the CP burn. Odds are in your favor to not fail again.

I will have the ability to take any of the 4 Assassins.

jivardi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

jivardi wrote:
And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Well... sisters can pump out around 4 1/2 moral wounds in one go, but it does cost a command point and nine repentia.
Sisters just aren't good at putting out mortal wounds.

Callidus or Inquisitor (lone) takes care of that. Inquisitor doesn't mess up our Convictions, neither does the Assassin. Both are reasonably cheap.

My list has Greyfax in it for Smite and for Deny rolls.

Callidus can be held off the board and then deploy anywhere more than D3+3 from an enemy unit. So a roll of a 1 means a 4" charge. Very difficult to fail and especially so if you burn 1 cp to reroll. Sure you have to roll both dice but rerolling snake eyes or a 1 and 2 are always worth the CP burn. Odds are in your favor to not fail again.

I will have the ability to take any of the 4 Assassins.

Callidus assassin will get one turn to shoot and does MAYBE 1 mortal wound(and you're ignoring the fact that in this situation it's not actually an invul save, it's an armor save that can't be modified. A culexus will do more damage in melee), greyfax is terrible as a caster compared to how good she is as a denier and is quite overpriced even with that in mind. Neither will do any significant amount of mortal wounds, especially not to one specific target arriving by deepstrike or outflank. Not exactly what I would call 'pumping out the mortal wounds.' If you want to bring an assassin, a barehanded Culexus will do more damage on average to the theoretical 2++ than any of the others will.

As for weight of fire being the best option, agreed. But every army in the game is going to have less fire to bring to bear due to the points increases and a smart opponent utilizing 2++ infantry will be clearing things like stormbolters/hurricane bolters/etc off the field before the 2++ infantry ever even lands.

Most likely the best strategy will be to simply body block the models, not even wasting shots at them. Feed them one to two small units per turn and hope to win on objectives. If the 2++ does become a main meta strat, we'll likely see a shift towards MSU argent shroud rather than Exorcists and friends VH just so we can have more board control.

It is beginning to sound like either bait the terminators somewhere or tie them down while winning on objectives because of how many points are in 'em.

So what's actually the over under on taking immolators and rhinos to score and objective and forcing people to pop it and then pop the troop inside or is VH squads enough?

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
It is beginning to sound like either bait the terminators somewhere or tie them down while winning on objectives because of how many points are in 'em.

So what's actually the over under on taking immolators and rhinos to score and objective and forcing people to pop it and then pop the troop inside or is VH squads enough?

rhinos might work, immolators are about 25pts too expensive now for doing anything with them to be a viable option.

ERJAK wrote:

jivardi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

jivardi wrote:
And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Well... sisters can pump out around 4 1/2 moral wounds in one go, but it does cost a command point and nine repentia.
Sisters just aren't good at putting out mortal wounds.

Callidus or Inquisitor (lone) takes care of that. Inquisitor doesn't mess up our Convictions, neither does the Assassin. Both are reasonably cheap.

My list has Greyfax in it for Smite and for Deny rolls.

Callidus can be held off the board and then deploy anywhere more than D3+3 from an enemy unit. So a roll of a 1 means a 4" charge. Very difficult to fail and especially so if you burn 1 cp to reroll. Sure you have to roll both dice but rerolling snake eyes or a 1 and 2 are always worth the CP burn. Odds are in your favor to not fail again.

I will have the ability to take any of the 4 Assassins.

Callidus assassin will get one turn to shoot and does MAYBE 1 mortal wound(and you're ignoring the fact that in this situation it's not actually an invul save, it's an armor save that can't be modified. A culexus will do more damage in melee), greyfax is terrible as a caster compared to how good she is as a denier and is quite overpriced even with that in mind. Neither will do any significant amount of mortal wounds, especially not to one specific target arriving by deepstrike or outflank. Not exactly what I would call 'pumping out the mortal wounds.' If you want to bring an assassin, a barehanded Culexus will do more damage on average to the theoretical 2++ than any of the others will.

As for weight of fire being the best option, agreed. But every army in the game is going to have less fire to bring to bear due to the points increases and a smart opponent utilizing 2++ infantry will be clearing things like stormbolters/hurricane bolters/etc off the field before the 2++ infantry ever even lands.

Most likely the best strategy will be to simply body block the models, not even wasting shots at them. Feed them one to two small units per turn and hope to win on objectives. If the 2++ does become a main meta strat, we'll likely see a shift towards MSU argent shroud rather than Exorcists and friends VH just so we can have more board control.

We'll see what GW does with SS. Wouldn't be the first time that 2 pieces of wargear with similar names had 2 different rules. If terminators don't get the "special" SS than my point still stands. If GW "allow" a 2++ save that can't be modified than just ignore them. They don't move fast, they can't shoot since they have no ranged weapon so their only threat is punching us in the face. Don't let them. Our infantry can move just as fast as they can.

You get 2++ with indominatus box models. No need for terminators or custodians to get same ss. Would be tad nastier though. Especially custodians.