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I finished manually editing my Battlescribe datafile with the new points.
My VH Brigade/BR Vanguard list went from 1999 to 2305. I was able to get it back to 1998 by deleting a Retributor Squad, Seraphim Squad and one Battle Sister Squad - but I'll probably continue to tweak it.
So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
Definitely use as few basic troops as possible. It bothers me that one intercessor costs less points than 2 battle sisters - I’d take one Intercessor over 2 battle sisters any day
So I've noticed there has been some talk about shifting from Vanguard detachments to Patrol, but what is the actual exchange rate for a CP when it comes to points? We have to ring a troop choice and get one less BR elite option?
So I've noticed there has been some talk about shifting from Vanguard detachments to Patrol, but what is the actual exchange rate for a CP when it comes to points? We have to ring a troop choice and get one less BR elite option?
Patrol maxes out at 2 Elites, which is fine for my purposes since that's all I ran from BR anyway (and I can fit the non-order Elite characters in my Battalion). However, lists running larger numbers of Repentia and Zephyrim will probably need to stick with the Vanguard for the 3-5 slots.
For me, the question was basically "Is it worth shifting one Sisters squad from VH to BR to gain 1cp?" I think it is, but will need to test it out.
55 points is pretty reasonable for what you get, though with the Breachable and Scaleable keywords you can't use three of them to wall your opponent off from half the table since they can move through and over them.
The detachment slot isn't a big drawback anymore and it doesn't CP.
Lemondish wrote: So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
I called it. I never freaked over it because I figured there was no way it would count for ALL SS, nor even be meant for the NEW SS.
Lemondish wrote: So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
I called it. I never freaked over it because I figured there was no way it would count for ALL SS, nor even be meant for the NEW SS.
So the Callidus ISN'T invalidated.
Just overpriced.
I thought it was 50/50 that they'd let it stand. Better to plan for the worst than be surprised for it.
What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 21:07:32
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
2x 4-5 Repentia is the same # of attacks but more tactically flexible when you don't need those extra attacks
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
2x 4-5 Repentia is the same # of attacks but more tactically flexible when you don't need those extra attacks
But then that's more resources being put into having two squads survive and make the charge. Whether that's allocating more miracle dice or just hoping you get the long charge/same target as the other squad.
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
The Callidus gets taken almost entirely for reign of confusion. The fact that she might ace one character before she goes down is a nice bonus. . Most Canoness loadouts do more damage than she does, especially against things that don't have an invulnerable save.
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
The Callidus gets taken almost entirely for reign of confusion. The fact that she might ace one character before she goes down is a nice bonus. . Most Canoness loadouts do more damage than she does, especially against things that don't have an invulnerable save.
I don't have, nor plan to, take a separate detachment for BR. I play VH so my Cannoness isn't as choppy.
I haven't looked at the points costs for SM yet but I have feeling more TH/SS terminators will hit the board. One of the local players has Ultra's and he loves his TH/SS terminators. He always takes at least one 10 man.
Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
I have units of 9 and that won't change but I don't think 5 can do much. 9 more prone to blasts but that's what rhino's/terrain is for.
Fear of blast is the biggest knee jerk overreaction I think I've seen for this edition thus far.
1+ Terminators was another.
Wait until you bring that 11 girl squad in the mirror and the opponents conflag Exo suddenly goes from it's traditional 4-5 shots per turn to 18.
5-10 you're right though, it's not a huge difference unless they FAQ multiple D6 guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
I kinda think you're ignoring how bad it is that you're at like half a command point at the end of all that. Also the points on the Seraphim and zephyrim are wrong, that's the old cost. Those units are 95 and 105 as equipped
My only other comments are that I hate Celestians and am starting to hate stormbolters on BSS.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 14:02:42
MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
First off, these are both 9 CP List. Remember that the Battalion with your Warlord is free as is the Fortification detachment that matches your warlord.
But I think we all need to consider overhauling how we build list. Look at secondary detachments for the maximum of what they offer rather than the minimum. How much can I put into this Patrol detachment versus what is the minimum for a Battalion. Move the Preacher to the other Battaltion and you are one Elite away from turning the Battalion into a Patrol, saving a CP.
MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
First off, these are both 9 CP List. Remember that the Battalion with your Warlord is free as is the Fortification detachment that matches your warlord.
But I think we all need to consider overhauling how we build list. Look at secondary detachments for the maximum of what they offer rather than the minimum. How much can I put into this Patrol detachment versus what is the minimum for a Battalion. Move the Preacher to the other Battaltion and you are one Elite away from turning the Battalion into a Patrol, saving a CP.
I think he's including all the CP he's spending on relic, etc. Which, honestly, we probably shouldn't be doing so much anymore.
Given there are only 5 turns now, and realistically most of our CP will be spent on turns 2-4, how many CP would you recommend to start with, and I mean how many after spending on relics / tales / traits.
Yep, this is exactly the conversation I want to be having.
So, 2-3 CP is the cost to diversify Orders in a list of this size. I could actually do a Valorous Heart Patrol more easily, with 2 Exos, 2 Dominions, Imagifier/Preacher, and a BSS to screen the aura characters. Bloody Rose kind of needs 3 Elites (Celestians, Imagifier, Zephyrim) to capitalize on the Order Convictions, plus a bunch of bodies to benefit from the buffs. Does the Warlord need to come from the largest detachment in this edition? Obviously running a single Order maximizes CP for other things, so I really need to justify two. In my mind, VH makes the big guns and objective campers more resilient, while BR gives me a tool to try to sweep an area of the board to establish control.
As for other pregame CP expenditures, they are getting harder to justify.
~ Open the Reliquaries (1 CP)... I feel like bringing Beneficence and the Book of St. Lucius in this list are worth the CP.
~ Heroine in the Making (1 CP)... I like the Imagifier playing an outsized role with the 9" aura of ignore AP-2 / +1 SoF serves the mechanized core of the list.
~ Venerated Saint (1 CP)... this one is harder to justify. I like +1S and ignore AP-1 on the Bloody Rose blob, but maybe the Strength buff is enough on them.
In a double Battalion, I've gone from 12 down to 6, plus 1 per turn as the game goes on. In my mind that's...
~ 1 or 2 uses of Blessed Bolts and Deadly Descent as circumstances dictate.
~ 2 uses of Tear Them Down on Bloody Rose melee units.
~ 1 CP for Devastating Refrain (which I used to use every turn, but won't so much now).
~ 1 or 2 CP for Divine Intervention or Martyred, whichever makes sense.
~ 1 or 2 for Purity of Faith, Blind Faith, Holy Rage, Embodied Prophecy... more circumstantially useful.
Plus all the new Universal Stratagems, which I haven't really considered. But hey, we don't need to save one for Celestine anymore!
So, I don't feel like I've blown all my CP pre-game, but I've definitely limited my options for stratagems. The question is whether dropping Venerated Saint and switching to a Patrol to put 2 CP back in the bucket is worth it. Similarly, is giving up 2-3 to bring the Hammer and Anvil combo of VH/BR a worthy investment... I think it is, or maybe I just want it to be.
For me, the relics / extra tale and traits are must haves for setting up my force.
With a single Brigade detachment I start off with 8 CP turn 1. But that’s 6 non-efficient troops I’m carrying. So I’m debating making 1 battalion + 1 patrol to free up 110 pts of troops and turn them into Mortifiers or Repentia, etc. Is freeing up 110 points for more efficient units worth 2 CP?
So it’s almost the same question as you @McPhail but in reverse.
