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I figure taking a couple of melta-melta-combimelta squads could be worthwhile. Maybe take a cherub in the unit for the free MD to use on a key damage roll.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).

I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.

Well previously I did play with 6 Arcos and they did serious work. Sisters Repentia overshadowed them with STR 8, but now that the Repentia are STR 7, the comparison gets closer, against more targets, so ther's probably a definite place for them. 2 wounds with FnP, and a ton o attacks, its just not too bad at all.

Have they changed the way you calculate strength in 9th? Shouldn't an Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior still bring the Repentias up to S8?

Yeah they reverted it to how it used to be in older editions - you apply modifers as a whole using typical order of operations, rather than by model and then by weapon.

So now it is x2 and then +1. Damn. Seems like Repentias is a unit that just gets worse in every edition. I miss the days when they could take out Land Raiders.

Agusto wrote:
So now it is x2 and then +1. Damn. Seems like Repentias is a unit that just gets worse in every edition. I miss the days when they could take out Land Raiders.

So, like, a couple weeks ago?

Nah, back when they had Armour Bane on their REAL eviscerators and a single Repentia could one shot almost any vehicle in the game.

Agusto wrote:
Nah, back when they had Armour Bane on their REAL eviscerators and a single Repentia could one shot almost any vehicle in the game.

Oops, missed the reference as it was before my time. That makes much more sense.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I figure taking a couple of melta-melta-combimelta squads could be worthwhile. Maybe take a cherub in the unit for the free MD to use on a key damage roll.

Nah, 5 points is too much for a maybe bonus to one shooting attack. The simulacrum is definitely a must have on those squads but the intercessor cherub is decidedly meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).

I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.

Well previously I did play with 6 Arcos and they did serious work. Sisters Repentia overshadowed them with STR 8, but now that the Repentia are STR 7, the comparison gets closer, against more targets, so ther's probably a definite place for them. 2 wounds with FnP, and a ton o attacks, its just not too bad at all.

Arcos are great for being a solid, relatively cheap melee threat that's totally conviction agnostic. They also bypass bloody rose's serious elite slot issues. 1.5 to 2 repentia per arco seems about right unless you're trying to run 2 squads of zephyrim for bloody rose lists.

For any other conviction I would never have taken repentia over Arcos, even when they were S8. With Arcos being even better by comparison and rhinos finally not being trash due to the way 9th works, a unit or two of arcos could be a sweet objective sweeper.

I'm going to start by building what's in the army box and shoving them in an extra Rhino I've had kicking around. Then its a contest between the two units to earn their own transport.

Without vehicle saturation I think Sisters will need to take horde MSU and be able to get close and personal to contest objectives while also taking high-damage weapons. To that end I think basic 5-model Sister squads with 2 meltaguns in Bloody Rose could give us that duality we need and in a relatively inexpensive package (75 pts where it was 73 pts in 8th).

I am thinking of taking 2 Battalions for 12 squads of 5-Sisters with dual meltaguns (900 points) backed by Repentia, Celestians, Seraphim, and characters.

So much ObSec allows us to contest multiple objectives vs elite opponents (which is where I believe the meta will start). And with around 38 meltaguns and some combiplasmas in the list i am planning, that should handle most elite / tanky lists.

The list will only have about 110 models, with all but the characters being single-wound models, so it gives target saturation of single-wound models and for “thin them out” will only give up 11 points if they wipe out all models (unlikely). I imagine a large blob buffed by Canonesses and Imagifiers going for mid table and then branching out to objectives while a few ObSec units and Seraphim come in from off table to contest objectives or harass.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Without vehicle saturation I think Sisters will need to take horde MSU and be able to get close and personal to contest objectives while also taking high-damage weapons. To that end I think basic 5-model Sister squads with 2 meltaguns in Bloody Rose could give us that duality we need and in a relatively inexpensive package (75 pts where it was 73 pts in 8th).

I am thinking of taking 2 Battalions for 12 squads of 5-Sisters with dual meltaguns (900 points) backed by Repentia, Celestians, Seraphim, and characters.

So much ObSec allows us to contest multiple objectives vs elite opponents (which is where I believe the meta will start). And with around 38 meltaguns and some combiplasmas in the list i am planning, that should handle most elite / tanky lists.

The list will only have about 110 models, with all but the characters being single-wound models, so it gives target saturation of single-wound models and for “thin them out” will only give up 11 points if they wipe out all models (unlikely). I imagine a large blob buffed by Canonesses and Imagifiers going for mid table and then branching out to objectives while a few ObSec units and Seraphim come in from off table to contest objectives or harass.

Why bloodyrose? What is it really gaining you on BSS squads? Don't get me wrong, taking bloody rose for the repentia, celestian, seraphim, w/e is fine but double or triple melta BSS are way better as VH or Argent Shroud than BR. In this particular setup you've suggested, at least one battalion should be VH.

(another side note is that you'll want the sergeant and a battle sister to be the ones with melta if you're only running 2. No reason not to keep LD 8 when a Combi-melta and melta cost the same).

The biggest flaw I can see in a list like this is that it falls down super hard to an opponent with infiltrate, or just one that can see what you're doing and gets first turn. With how slow the list is, body blocking you with scouts or nurglings or jumping a fast moving vehicle in front of your lines could potentially trip you up enough that it ends up being as late as turn 3 before you actually hit the objectives.

It seems like a really strong anti-meta option, it just needs to be tweaked enough that you can jump at least a few things out to grab an early lead.

(the list is also boring as piss but that's a totally separate issue.)

ERJAK. Thanks for the feedback...

Why mono-Rose?
I’ve thought of breaking out one battalion as VH but BR gives all my squads duality - without buffs one 5-model BSS Squad can still make 12 attacks at Str3 AP-1 and with buffs 17x Str4 AP-1 attacks.
Sisters gonna have to get close this edition so the more tools we take to get up close and personal the harder we’ll be. Granted VH can leave some units back and have that nice ignore AP1 and 6+++ natively, I’d have to play a few games and see.

Superiors would take Combi-Meltas I just didn’t specify, but also considering them taking Infernos along with their bolters in addition to 2 meltas in the squad.

Sisters are slow, that’s an issue but if we take transports and opponent gets first turn as you say those transports are toast anyway. Zephyrim are expensive alternatives and not competitive anymore. Yes sure an opponent can put up roadblocks it’s part of the difficulty we have- I plan to outflank at least 5 BSS squads most games which is part of my mitigation. What would you suggest?

Boring is relative. I would prefer the old days of meltas popping out of immolators but until our transports get some gimmicks or a price reduction I’m ok with this list. And I’d love to put my beautiful organs or Morties out but with how prevalent AT is gonna be they’ll be gone by T2.
It’s ok, I like this list and think it could start off 9th pretty well.

Something to consider davidgr33n would be to abandon the double Battalion and utilize some of the other Sisters units for different roles at the low cost of 1 PPM and Objective Secured:

Dominions on foot kited out the same as the BSS give you a pregame opportunity to advance up the table. Not as good as an infiltrating unit, but still added mobility

Celestians, especially near a Canoness, give you much punchier unit that a Battle Sisters Squad. Much more attacks and a perfect target for a Imagifier Strength boost.

And if you really need more slots in your army, the Patrol adds a lot for 2 CP and 1 HQ/Troop compared to a second Battalion.

 davidgr33n wrote:
ERJAK. Thanks for the feedback...

Why mono-Rose?
I’ve thought of breaking out one battalion as VH but BR gives all my squads duality - without buffs one 5-model BSS Squad can still make 12 attacks at Str3 AP-1 and with buffs 17x Str4 AP-1 attacks.
Sisters gonna have to get close this edition so the more tools we take to get up close and personal the harder we’ll be. Granted VH can leave some units back and have that nice ignore AP1 and 6+++ natively, I’d have to play a few games and see.

Superiors would take Combi-Meltas I just didn’t specify, but also considering them taking Infernos along with their bolters in addition to 2 meltas in the squad.

Sisters are slow, that’s an issue but if we take transports and opponent gets first turn as you say those transports are toast anyway. Zephyrim are expensive alternatives and not competitive anymore. Yes sure an opponent can put up roadblocks it’s part of the difficulty we have- I plan to outflank at least 5 BSS squads most games which is part of my mitigation. What would you suggest?

Boring is relative. I would prefer the old days of meltas popping out of immolators but until our transports get some gimmicks or a price reduction I’m ok with this list. And I’d love to put my beautiful organs or Morties out but with how prevalent AT is gonna be they’ll be gone by T2.
It’s ok, I like this list and think it could start off 9th pretty well.

I disagree about Zephyrim being non-competitive, but that's for a different discussion.

I also found a video of something...closeish to this list being played (though he makes some pretty nonsensical choices like triple exo in an infantry spam list , no imagifiers in VH (????????) and a max squad of Seraphim for some unfathomable reason, but hey...it's sort of close to what you were thinking. At least should give you an idea of how quickly infantry dies to marines.

HQ – Bloody Rose
Celestine
170

Troops
5x Sisters – 2 Storm bolters
61

Fast Attack
10 Seraphim – 4 inferno pistols, power weapon, plasma pistol
180


9 Zephyrim
180


HQ – Valorous Heart
Canoness
50
WARLORD: indomitable Belief
RELIC: Book of St Lucious

Missionary
45

Troops
10 Sisters – 2 melta
130


10 Sisters – 2 melta
130


10 Sisters – 2 melta
130


10 Sisters – 2 melta
130


5 Sisters – 2 storm bolters
61


5 Sisters – 2 storm bolters
61

Heavy Support
3x Exorcist – good missiles
585

1998
10CP

I really have no idea what he was going for here. To not kill 2 invictors that are literally inside your frontlines for 3 turns is disgraceful and it's pretty clear he has no goddam idea what he's doing, but hey, at least you'd have a frame of reference for how badly things can go.

(Also, someone with a stronger stomach than me watch the whole video and figure out wtf happened to his exorcists? He's supposed to have 3 and I never saw a single one.).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGSV-_G8-vE&t=1452s

From the replies in the YouTube comments there this doesn't actually seem to be the list that was posted on the site...

I think the biggest hurtle for Sisters, and it's not even that big IMO, is that our Troops aren't that great at melee. Better than a Tau Firewarrior for sure but not SM great, not even Pink Horror great.

Leave melee to the Repentia/Arco's/Calidus/Evorsor/Cannoness/Inquisitor units. 5 BR BSS are going to struggle to dent anything and even if you do manage to win a melee over an objective and drive the opposing unit off, those 5 Sisters, assuming any are alive, won't be durable enough to resist a counter assault next turn.

I plan to put Sisters in Rhinos and all will be 10 strong. Turn 1 is more or less the "get into postion turn". If I get first turn I will probably be on at least 3 objectives (depending on mission of course). If my opponent pops a rhino or two my Sisters get out and most likely won't be in range to be assaulted (again, some armies could probably be able to make a turn 1 assault) but 10 girls will hold better than 5 and if they are VH they are even more tanky.

If my opponents are shooting anti-tank weapons at my Rhinos that means they aren't shooting at my Excorsists or Mortifier/Penitent engines; units that have tooth enough to punch back and hard.

I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.

I run my front-line battle sisters in units of 8, to leave space in the Rhino for characters.

What I have noticed is that geared up squads came out much better after the 9th Edition points revisions than the minimal squads the optimizers like to run.

The very common 5 BSS with 2 SB squad went from 49 points to 61 points. That's up 12 points or 24.5%.

My totally cool but unoptimized 8 BSS squad with Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Simularcum Imperialis, and SS with Combi-Melta and Powersword when from 124 points to 133 points. An increase of 9 points or 7.3%. That right, it increased less points than the 8th edition optimized squad because GW kept steady or decreased many upgrade cost.

I guess if you ever wondered why GW was saying it only cost them one squad going from 8th to 9th, it because they actually use unit upgrades rather than bare bones units. This makes me a happy camper. Time for everyone to start thinking about what weapons are actually now viable given the revised points cost.

jivardi wrote:
I think the biggest hurtle for Sisters, and it's not even that big IMO, is that our Troops aren't that great at melee. Better than a Tau Firewarrior for sure but not SM great, not even Pink Horror great.

Leave melee to the Repentia/Arco's/Calidus/Evorsor/Cannoness/Inquisitor units. 5 BR BSS are going to struggle to dent anything and even if you do manage to win a melee over an objective and drive the opposing unit off, those 5 Sisters, assuming any are alive, won't be durable enough to resist a counter assault next turn.

I plan to put Sisters in Rhinos and all will be 10 strong. Turn 1 is more or less the "get into postion turn". If I get first turn I will probably be on at least 3 objectives (depending on mission of course). If my opponent pops a rhino or two my Sisters get out and most likely won't be in range to be assaulted (again, some armies could probably be able to make a turn 1 assault) but 10 girls will hold better than 5 and if they are VH they are even more tanky.

If my opponents are shooting anti-tank weapons at my Rhinos that means they aren't shooting at my Excorsists or Mortifier/Penitent engines; units that have tooth enough to punch back and hard.

I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.

I think it's actually broader than that. Our troops just straight up don't do anything. They're not cheap enough to be massed screens like guardsman, they're not expensive enough to have the statline/options to hold out on their own like intercessors. They're just kinda...nothing. They're so jack of all trades that they've pigeonholed themselves into not being able to accomplish anything.

Sidebar, if you're on any objective that isn't in your deployment zone, most CQC armies will be able to charge you turn 1.

jivardi wrote:

I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.

I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.

Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.

It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.

If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.

I've been seeing a number of lists including power swords on the sister superior - is that because of WYSIWYG on the models? Is the cost for AP-2 (on power sword) worth it versus +1 attack for a chainsword?

Corizin wrote:

jivardi wrote:

I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.

I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.

Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.

It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.

If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.

Yeah, Sisters in general want to be MSU and it's been that way for a long time. You get 2 extra special weapons slots and 1 extra superior, and the added surviability of being MSU, and there's no baked-in incentive to field larger units like some armies have.

That said, the reasons you might want a larger unit are:
Slot Limitations [if you want bodies, but can't get enough because you're out of appropriate slots/ability to take that unit]
Buff Efficiency [large units make stratagems and other single-target buff much more efficient]
Close Quarters Combat [if two units charge together against a unit that can fight back, and the first one doesn't kill it off [making the second unit superfluous and overkill], the second unit stands to take unnecessary casualties from a combat interrupt]

Given that BSS are troops, though, they're
Not bound by the rule of 3 and in the most numerous slot
Not usually the target for your buff abilities and stratagems unless you're having a bad day
Pretty crud at CQC anyway

Yeah, you should be fielding MSU BSS.

And that's before considering that minimum count of MSU BSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.

Well, there is an advantage in that a unit of 10 is better character protection than 2 squads of 5.

Still, though, I'm not sure if the difference between 6 and 8 dead sisters is enough to warrant it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And that's before considering that minimum count of MSU BSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.

One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.

Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.

I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.

Agusto wrote:
Have they changed the way you calculate strength in 9th? Shouldn't an Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior still bring the Repentias up to S8?

No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dunno if anyone caught it but Transports are much faster now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corizin wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And that's before considering that minimum count of MSU BSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.

One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.

Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.

I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.

Sure I mean you add ablative wounds to that squad. i know everyone is saying its better to have 5's because : blast weapons but I'm not too sure i will be doing THAT.

Sorry, where did transports getting a movement buff?

Dunno if anyone caught it but Transports are much faster now.

have they changed the stats or can you disembark after movement?

 Jancoran wrote:
No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.

Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Sorry, where did transports getting a movement buff?

Now allowed to embark and still advance the trasnport. pretty sweet. Couldnt do that before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.

Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.

Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.

 Jancoran wrote:

Now allowed to embark and still advance the trasnport. pretty sweet. Couldnt do that before.

While neat, in what situation is that actually useful? The game is only 5 turns long.