Sisters of Battle 2019 Codex Tactics

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**JNAProductions**

Jancoran wrote:
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Sorry, where did transports getting a movement buff?

Now allowed to embark and still advance the trasnport. pretty sweet. Couldnt do that before.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.

Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.

Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.

Inaccurate. In 8E, you follow PEMDAS, but you first check what affects the MODEL, then apply any weapon buffs.

So, if you had a weapon that was SX2 on a S4 model, but the MODEL gained +1 Strength from a buff, you'd strike at S10.
If you had a weapon that was SX2+1 on a S7 model you'd strike at S15.

**tneva82**

Jancoran wrote:

Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.

Ummm no. 8E you apply all modifiers to MODEL first in double/divide followed by plus/minus and then apply the WEAPON modifiers same way.

So:

Model: + Weapon: double. You first add S to model, then double it. Base S3 = (3+1)*2

Model: Double,: Weapon: Plus. You first double, then add 1. Base S3 = 3*2+1=7

If you had say model: Double, Minus and then weapon double with base S of 3 you would 3*2-1=5 and then from weapon double to 10.

9E simply dropped distinction between modifiers that apply to model and modifiers that apply from weapon.

**ERJAK**

CleansingFire wrote:
I've been seeing a number of lists including power swords on the sister superior - is that because of WYSIWYG on the models? Is the cost for AP-2 (on power sword) worth it versus +1 attack for a chainsword?

Powerswords are NEVER the right option. Even if you want to take a power weapon, the maul is a far better option, especially in bloody rose who gives it AP-2.

Against marines a maul does more damage base than a sword does with bloody rose Ap-4.

The imagifier helps the sword more against marines, but at that point the maul is doubling out eldar and guard and wounding bikes and eradicators on 3s.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corizin wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And that's before considering that minimum count of MSU BSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.

One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.

Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.

I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.

The thing is, without the rets bonuses and stratagem, none of our heavy weapons are worth it AT ALL on infantry. HBs, HFs, and Multimeltas are all mediocre to terrible so if you're not taking rets, you shouldn't be taking any of the heavy weapons.

**Jancoran**

Corizin wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

Now allowed to embark and still advance the trasnport. pretty sweet. Couldnt do that before.

While neat, in what situation is that actually useful? The game is only 5 turns long.

Sure. Its useful in every round you need it. That's when it will typically be useful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.

Ummm no. 8E you apply all modifiers to MODEL first in double/divide followed by plus/minus and then apply the WEAPON modifiers same way.

So:

Model: + Weapon: double. You first add S to model, then double it. Base S3 = (3+1)*2

Model: Double,: Weapon: Plus. You first double, then add 1. Base S3 = 3*2+1=7

If you had say model: Double, Minus and then weapon double with base S of 3 you would 3*2-1=5 and then from weapon double to 10.

9E simply dropped distinction between modifiers that apply to model and modifiers that apply from weapon.

have fun with that. =)

**ERJAK**

Jancoran wrote:
Corizin wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

Now allowed to embark and still advance the trasnport. pretty sweet. Couldnt do that before.

While neat, in what situation is that actually useful? The game is only 5 turns long.

Sure. Its useful in every round you need it. That's when it will typically be useful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.

Ummm no. 8E you apply all modifiers to MODEL first in double/divide followed by plus/minus and then apply the WEAPON modifiers same way.

So:

Model: + Weapon: double. You first add S to model, then double it. Base S3 = (3+1)*2

Model: Double,: Weapon: Plus. You first double, then add 1. Base S3 = 3*2+1=7

If you had say model: Double, Minus and then weapon double with base S of 3 you would 3*2-1=5 and then from weapon double to 10.

9E simply dropped distinction between modifiers that apply to model and modifiers that apply from weapon.

have fun with that. =)

You've become really zen at saying nothing these days.

**jivardi**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Corizin wrote:
jivardi wrote:

I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.

I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.

Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.

It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.

If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.

Yeah, Sisters in general want to be MSU and it's been that way for a long time. You get 2 extra special weapons slots and 1 extra superior, and the added surviability of being MSU, and there's no baked-in incentive to field larger units like some armies have.

That said, the reasons you might want a larger unit are:
Slot Limitations [if you want bodies, but can't get enough because you're out of appropriate slots/ability to take that unit]
Buff Efficiency [large units make stratagems and other single-target buff much more efficient]
Close Quarters Combat [if two units charge together against a unit that can fight back, and the first one doesn't kill it off [making the second unit superfluous and overkill], the second unit stands to take unnecessary casualties from a combat interrupt]

Given that BSS are troops, though, they're
Not bound by the rule of 3 and in the most numerous slot
Not usually the target for your buff abilities and stratagems unless you're having a bad day
Pretty crud at CQC anyway

Yeah, you should be fielding MSU BSS.

And that's before considering that minimum count of MSU BSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.

Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

**Corizin**

jivardi wrote:
Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging

Is there a rule that prevents me from putting 2 squads of 5 into one Rhino?

**JNAProductions**

FNP is exactly as valuable on MSU as it is on bigger squads.

**shabadoit**

jivardi wrote:

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

It's more that they have strategies that they have and wanting those to affect more models. If Plague marines lost those strats you'd see them in 5 man squads.

BSS don't have anything that makes a 10-15 squad super killy or survivable.

**Corizin**

shabadoit wrote:

BSS don't have anything that makes a 10-15 squad super killy or survivable.

Well, if that 15 man squad happens to contain flamers you could do quite a lot of damage to someone with Judgement of the Faithful. A 15 man squad of Celestians could probably also make worthwhile use of Exceptional Proficiency. I'm not really that convinced about how worthwhile either is though because ultimately it's mostly boltgun fire and boltgun fire is kind of meh.

**Taikishi**

1. A 15 model unit of Battle Sisters can field at most 3 flamers, just like a 5 model unit. That includes a superior with a combi-flamer.

2. Celestians max out at a unit of 10, unlike Battle Sister Squads.

**U02dah4**

Having 3 5 man squads costs the same as 1 15 man squads and 3 5 man squads will be more resistant to moral much more resistant to blast weapons are able to take more special weapons and unlike in 8th dont give away kill points

**jivardi**

You do you.

My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.

I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.

Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.

**Corizin**

jivardi wrote:
You do you.

My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.

I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.

Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.

Aren't many lists going to win Attrition almost by default anyways because of our vehicles tendency to go pop pop pop during the first 2-3 rounds? Unless we choose to go something like fully infantry VH which is actually looking somewhat attractive under the scoring system.

**Jancoran**

Corizin wrote:
jivardi wrote:
Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging

Is there a rule that prevents me from putting 2 squads of 5 into one Rhino?

legal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jivardi wrote:
You do you.

My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.

I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.

Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.

I use large squads.

**tneva82**

jivardi wrote:

Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

2x5 is actually more durable than 1x10 and fits to 1 rhino just as well.

**MacPhail**

On this topic, what about a squad's footprint on the table and the new emphasis on terrain? Any MSU schemes around being more able to get a unit within / wholly within a piece of terrain or X inches of one? I've seen a few batreps and the new maneuver seems to be to move to (but not onto) a terrain feature to enjoy the benefits of having it between you and the enemy, then moving onto in your next turn to control the rules interactions. Same with embark and disembark... any MSU advantage there?

**alextroy**

I know this is a tactics thread, but let's give one up for the Palatine, coming soon from GW! I needs it, my precious.

Spoiler:

**Sgt.Sunshine**

Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?

**Corizin**

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?

The last time the Palatine was stated out was apparently in Third Edition. Back then a Palatine was a Canoness:
-1 W
-1 A
-1 Ld
-1 Faith Point each time they contribute

Assuming they do the same thing this time, she would have:
WS 2, BS 2, S3. T3. W4,A3, LD8. SV3+ and maybe cost something like 10 points less then the Canoness?

(Although back then the Celestian Superior also had that statblock and she's a lot weaker now)

**Spoletta**

In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.

**Corizin**

Spoletta wrote:
In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.

That makes sense. Rumor seems to be they're planning to apply the 1 Captain, 2 Lieutenants rule universally. I'm a bit curious how that impacts the seemingly popular strategy of going 2x Canoness, 1x Celestine and 1x Triumph of Saint Catherine. Will the special characters steal the captain slots and we'll have to use Palatines?

**alextroy**

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?

The model is new, although the rank is old. Think Space Marine Lt and you can't go far wrong. Whether she will have some new ability or give Sisters a Re-Roll Wounds aura is anybodies guess.

**ERJAK**

Spoletta wrote:
In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.

Why? There's nothing even vaguely hinting that that might be true. Marines getting it is not the same as everyone getting it. Keep in mind that the biggest complaint about marines is their limitless rerolls. This is likely a measure to stop that specifically, not a way to stop every army from bringing captains.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corizin wrote:
Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?

The last time the Palatine was stated out was apparently in Third Edition. Back then a Palatine was a Canoness:
-1 W
-1 A
-1 Ld
-1 Faith Point each time they contribute

Assuming they do the same thing this time, she would have:
WS 2, BS 2, S3. T3. W4,A3, LD8. SV3+ and maybe cost something like 10 points less then the Canoness?

(Although back then the Celestian Superior also had that statblock and she's a lot weaker now)

It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.

**Asmodai**

Spoletta wrote:
In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.

Source for that?

I'm hoping the Palatine is a sign Sisters won't be last to get rules this edition.

**Mr Morden**

Excellent news and looking forward to the new model - now if only there was a jump pack option !

**Spoletta**

Asmodai wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.

Source for that?

I'm hoping the Palatine is a sign Sisters won't be last to get rules this edition.

Just speculation right now.

T'au limitation wasn't removed, and instead SM are now getting it.
The 2 factions with the most limited HQ selections are being expanded (Sisters and Drukhari). I would say that the chances are high.

**Corizin**

ERJAK wrote:

It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.

Surely you mean W4, A3.

I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.

**Mr Morden**

Corizin wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.

Surely you mean W4, A3.

I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.

The model might be showing ALL the weapon "options"

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

jivardi wrote:

Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

What? I'm confused.

1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.

2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.

3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.