Corizin wrote:
Also isn't the maximum number of squads you can bring 12 with a Brigade? I can't imagine what kind of whacky map you're playing on where you feel like 60 BSS spread across 12 squads isn't enough to stand on objective markers for you.

A brigade also means you could take up to 80 Celestians and 50 Dominons if you feel like it although chances are you'll want to spend some of those Elite/Fast slots on something else.

Incidentally in a 2000 point game a maximum infantry army would wield:
3x Canoness, 60 BSS, 80 Celestians and 20 Dominons.

I wonder how most opponents would react if they saw you deploy that.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Celestians are max squad size 10, so you're limited to 20<=1000, 30<=2000, and 40 >2000. Same for Doms.

That said, I still can't see running out of troops slots for BSS and needing to take reinforced squads.

Taikishi wrote:
Hate to break it to you, but the 9th edition rules for matched play limit you to three of each non-Troops, non-DT datasheet regardless of game size. So even a 2001 point game or larger limits you to 30 Celestians max.

Corizin wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.

Surely you mean W4, A3.

I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.

ERJAK wrote:

Corizin wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.

Surely you mean W4, A3.

I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.

At W4 A3, she's completely worthless except for whatever her buff is. Hopefully her buff is good enough to justify her terrible statline then.

The canoness gets: Brazier, blessed blade, powersword, plasma pistol, inferno pistol, null rod, rod of office, chainsword, bolt pistol, bolt gun. Compare that to a primaris Captain getting Bolt gun, different boltgun, powerfist and she has a huge amount of options.

 alextroy wrote:
We can speculate all day about what her statline is going to be. I'm much more concerned about her options. I really hope we get an excellent multi-option kit like the Canoness rather than mono-construction or single option (do you want plasma pistol or bolt pistol?) kit. I'm probably asking for too much given the Canoness kit is rather unique amongst recent GW kits.

Corizin wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
We can speculate all day about what her statline is going to be. I'm much more concerned about her options. I really hope we get an excellent multi-option kit like the Canoness rather than mono-construction or single option (do you want plasma pistol or bolt pistol?) kit. I'm probably asking for too much given the Canoness kit is rather unique amongst recent GW kits.

If we look at the other sisters kits like the Seraphims, BSS, and Repentia I feel like the overall GW trend for Sisters is to give us just about all the options they think they can cram into a sheet of plastic. The way her arms are positioned in the preview also looks like a multi-pose to me. If they were going to fix her into a single pose with a single piece of equipment wouldn't they give her a more complicated pose like Veridyan?

My bet is that the Rosario hand can alternatively hold a sword.

 warmaster21 wrote:

I was still hoping we would get a jump pack option, After all with the lore a large portion of those who eventually become a canoness/palatine came from the seraphim, but i guess they forget how to fly once they get promoted, or gw doesnt want to push out celestine.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

jivardi wrote:


Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

What? I'm confused.

1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.

2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.

3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.

 davidgr33n wrote:
What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?

I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.

jivardi wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

jivardi wrote:


Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

What? I'm confused.

1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.

2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.

3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.

I know this is a tactics forum but you play your way, I'll play mine.

I've never liked MSU, not in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th editions. Not going to change now. My W/L record isn't what a person would call excellent but I've won more than I've lost. In my experience max squad sizes have always been better than MSU. The ONLY reason to MSU in 8th was to be able to take 2-3 detachments for CP farming.

I'm not saying I will always field 60 BSS at 2k. I can if I want but I'd most likely save that many girls for 3k and higher.

I'm just not convinced MSU is the way to go. I've seen batreps on YT the past few weeks where MSU armies do good, I've seen batreps where MSU armies fall flat. Certain armies can do MSU better. 5 DG will last a lot longer than 5 BSS. And if I'm understanding the rules for Blast correctly a 2d6 Blast weapon does min. of 2 shots against 5 or fewer, does min. of 3 shots to units of 6-10 and max shots to units above 10 models. So, against 2d3 or 2d6 weapons my 10 girls will face min. of one more shot. So my squads are 5 girls larger, face a min. of 1 more shot to Blast weapons (most of which are real low S or AP which is more or less ignored by VH) and suffer morale LESS than they did in 8th.

 davidgr33n wrote:
What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?

I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.

jivardi wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

jivardi wrote:


Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.

I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.

I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.

There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.

What? I'm confused.

1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.

2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.

3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.

I know this is a tactics forum but you play your way, I'll play mine.

I've never liked MSU, not in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th editions. Not going to change now. My W/L record isn't what a person would call excellent but I've won more than I've lost. In my experience max squad sizes have always been better than MSU. The ONLY reason to MSU in 8th was to be able to take 2-3 detachments for CP farming.

I'm not saying I will always field 60 BSS at 2k. I can if I want but I'd most likely save that many girls for 3k and higher.

I'm just not convinced MSU is the way to go. I've seen batreps on YT the past few weeks where MSU armies do good, I've seen batreps where MSU armies fall flat. Certain armies can do MSU better. 5 DG will last a lot longer than 5 BSS. And if I'm understanding the rules for Blast correctly a 2d6 Blast weapon does min. of 2 shots against 5 or fewer, does min. of 3 shots to units of 6-10 and max shots to units above 10 models. So, against 2d3 or 2d6 weapons my 10 girls will face min. of one more shot. So my squads are 5 girls larger, face a min. of 1 more shot to Blast weapons (most of which are real low S or AP which is more or less ignored by VH) and suffer morale LESS than they did in 8th.

Dragonbeef4Life wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?

I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.

I agree with Alextroy here. Inferno pistol either requires you to be out of position or you're on a melee/Seraphim unit. No one else likely wants it. Plasma is for ranged Canoness imo since you're wanting that 12" range anyways for Rapid.with the BSSs you're around. Works well on Seraphim Superiors if you plan on dropping in a Canoness bubble for the Deadly Descent. Its not as great outside the bubble for the cost as your Infernos on them should be handling whatever other high T you're dropping them onto to risk the D2 death on a 1. Maybe an out of place character snipe, but uncommon.

And plasma on a melee Canoness, unless you want Rod, doesn't make much sense to me as the range benefits for the same cost towards the inferno in any scenario.

ERJAK wrote:

There's no such thing as a 'ranged' canoness. You're either melee or a buff bot. The main buffbot canoness already has a plasma pistol as mandatory so that's whatever, but outside of that you're taking an inferno pistol if you're taking a pistol at all.

The real argument is pistol or combi-weapon, and the answer to that is: Combi-weapon unless it's on a dedicated melee squad and probably still combi-weapon even then.

• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Question :

• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.

Does that mean a sister superior can have both a combi-weapon and a plasma or inferno pistol equipped at the same time ?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I uh, don't care about blasts. They're seriously overhyped From say a battle cannon against a max size unit, it's a near mathematically irrelevant 1 additional wound per turn. Blasts aren't the reason to MSU. The reason to MSU is that you're more resilient that a large squad, and your're more tactically flexible. Against units from 6-10, it's effect is even more negligibly small.

Also, like, I fail to see what point you're making about 5 DG versus 5 BSS. Sisters do MSU really well because there's aggressively no reason to do otherwise baked into the faction. The question isn't lasting longer; though 8 BSS in 1 squad will last less long than 8 BSS in 2 squads.

Remember, two squads can stand near each other to effective act like 1 unit most of the time for things like "how many models do I have holding the point" or "how much fire can I put on the target", but they can also go their own way, so they're almost strictly better even if you don't take advantage of things like special weapons. I've already mentioned the reasons to be not-MSU, which are generally related to melee offense and buffs efficiency, neither of which are likely relevant to BSS as basic troops.

Corizin wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

There's no such thing as a 'ranged' canoness. You're either melee or a buff bot. The main buffbot canoness already has a plasma pistol as mandatory so that's whatever, but outside of that you're taking an inferno pistol if you're taking a pistol at all.

The real argument is pistol or combi-weapon, and the answer to that is: Combi-weapon unless it's on a dedicated melee squad and probably still combi-weapon even then.

There is such a thing as a Canoness with the 'Wrath of the Emperor'.

 davidgr33n wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Question :

• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.

Does that mean a sister superior can have both a combi-weapon and a plasma or inferno pistol equipped at the same time ?

Yes, but you can only shoot either the pistol OR the combi-weapon during the shooting phase, not both.

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
So I've been looking a bit more closely at Celestians, but I'm concerned about taking more than one unit. Their rerolls trigger from being in range of a cannoness from their order and that seems a bit harder to manage with the VH/BR list I'd like to run.

When fielding multiple units do you just give up on the reroll for some units? Grouping up multiple together seems not ideal.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I uh, don't care about blasts. They're seriously overhyped From say a battle cannon against a max size unit, it's a near mathematically irrelevant 1 additional wound per turn. Blasts aren't the reason to MSU. The reason to MSU is that you're more resilient that a large squad, and your're more tactically flexible. Against units from 6-10, it's effect is even more negligibly small.

Also, like, I fail to see what point you're making about 5 DG versus 5 BSS. Sisters do MSU really well because there's aggressively no reason to do otherwise baked into the faction. The question isn't lasting longer; though 8 BSS in 1 squad will last less long than 8 BSS in 2 squads.

Remember, two squads can stand near each other to effective act like 1 unit most of the time for things like "how many models do I have holding the point" or "how much fire can I put on the target", but they can also go their own way, so they're almost strictly better even if you don't take advantage of things like special weapons. I've already mentioned the reasons to be not-MSU, which are generally related to melee offense and buffs efficiency, neither of which are likely relevant to BSS as basic troops.

Battle cannon is d6 shots so min 3. So leman russ shooting twice has minimum 6 shots. Remember russ 2d6 shots is because it shoots twice. Not because shot stat is heavy 2d6