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Dragonbeef4Life wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.

Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes

Well certainly GW is stupid enough to do that but you shouldn't make points for FUTURE rules but what they are NOW.

So we have to ask: Are GW developers idiots or not? If they are then points won't be changed.

tneva82 wrote:

Dragonbeef4Life wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.

Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes

Well certainly GW is stupid enough to do that but you shouldn't make points for FUTURE rules but what they are NOW.

So we have to ask: Are GW developers idiots or not? If they are then points won't be changed.

MFM was finalized and printed months and months ago. Most likely long before GW knew that Codex Space Marines would be delayed till October. If GW planned on releasing 9th in late July and Codex Space Marines in August, it would just be a few weeks between the release of the MFM and all the stat-updates resulting from the Space Marines release.

Including points values to reflect the profiles that would come out almost immediately makes a lot more sense than releasing a book that would be obsolete within a week or two.

Then something happened that caused the Space Marine book to be seriously delayed.

A very plausible supposition. GW did lose considerable amounts of production time both in China for book production and in Nottingham for model production for all the kits to roll out with Codex Space Marines and Codex Necrons.

Here's to hoping GW preplanned the equipment cost in CA2020. I really want the two Multi-Melta Retributors I built to be good along with the 4 Heavy Bolters I have.

So out of curiosity where does the exorcist stand now with the improvement to Multi-meltas?

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
So out of curiosity where does the exorcist stand now with the improvement to Multi-meltas?

I still think it has a place in any list, just not likely a 2 of default and possible 3 of in comp lists. The 48" threat is still undeniable for an anti-tank, 3-9 shot BLAST (shame its 3 min by model not dice for it) that does d6. You need something with that range, and the T8 is the best we got to help keep it up.

But at 200 pts, we now would have other options that are still anti-tank threats. Including our Immos suddenly becoming good TANKS themselves, though T7 10W does mean that they'll likely get blasted quickly.

My own list planning, assuming no price changes, has me kind of all over the board now and its actually a bit frustrating. Ha. I love VH/BR builds, but I'm leaning into BR only and I always end up with at least one Exo, one Immo and 2 Rhinos for the full Rep sisters. But my troops seem to jump around. I'm between Zeph/Seph drop pockets (even with the increased cost, they really are quite worth it in MSU support groups) and actually just sticking heavy on the BSS/Celestians. While they don't get the benefit of the Rets, I keep going to the ablative wound and threat that they 55 pt squads suddenly do when armed with D2 weaponry on HBs. 65 Pts for them with obsec is really looking good.

Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.

Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.

If you have other targets to make sure it's not focused down then probably. But I haven't played with the new codex yet so I'm pretty behind on tactics.

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.

Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.

I like them MSU in BR. 16 attacks on the charge. Statistically: 10.67 hits, against MEQ is 3.56 wounds, rerolling from Rapturous the 7.11 missed for another 2.37 wounds totaling 6(5.93) wounds at -4 AP. Typically resulting in 3 primaris dying or 6 Tac. That's current mathhammer. And they will survive the pushback from the MEQ usually quite well at 3+ since many of them dont have any AP (or -1 with astertes chainswords) still giving us a good chance to stay up. Putting that as a max unit just isn't worth it to me. 100 pts gets you that and 105 gets you the pennant aura to help ensure charges. That's awesome in my experience at holding down what you need. Rapturous is huge as a free buff and -4A means just about everything in the game that you're going to want to put them into isn't saving.

When you look post PS update, that +1S is astronomical on them. Using the same comparison, those 10.67 hits turn into 8.00 wounds now (35% better return than S3) statistically still at -4. Tear them Down and you're at near 10(9.48) wounds on average. That's pretty monstrous. And really doesn't need a full unit either way. Take two MSU of them if you want, and you can split engage them that much easier if you're wanting them.

If you take the Passion:

Current- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 4.56 initial wounds, 3.04 from Rapturous at 7.60 wounds total
Post- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 6.84 initial wounds, 3.42 from Rapturous at 10.26, and you don't even need the strategem

Passion is great is you're going into melee mode with Ret, Zeph, and possibly even Seraphim to tie up back lines. Tagging those relic scorpius is amazing since they are blast, they do next to nothing to the girls and you stop a 250 pt unit from being annoying.

If you're using another order, that becomes more of a point to take better than MSU. I've never tried them on anything but VH or BR myself. VH they have some durability if you don't need strike them but use as your vangaurd melee deterrent. I'm still hard pressed to use other orders. Ebon is the only one that I see being viable as a 5+++ in a durability war is pretty damning with the new Imperial firepower, but the girls do tend to hold out well even still with SOF when needed. I may change up the VH to Ebon though, but need to playtest, if we see the meta shift from bulk fire -1/-2 into hard hitting weapons.

Dragonbeef4Life wrote:

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.

Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.

I like them MSU in BR. 16 attacks on the charge. Statistically: 10.67 hits, against MEQ is 3.56 wounds, rerolling from Rapturous the 7.11 missed for another 2.37 wounds totaling 6(5.93) wounds at -4 AP. Typically resulting in 3 primaris dying or 6 Tac. That's current mathhammer. And they will survive the pushback from the MEQ usually quite well at 3+ since many of them dont have any AP (or -1 with astertes chainswords) still giving us a good chance to stay up. Putting that as a max unit just isn't worth it to me. 100 pts gets you that and 105 gets you the pennant aura to help ensure charges. That's awesome in my experience at holding down what you need. Rapturous is huge as a free buff and -4A means just about everything in the game that you're going to want to put them into isn't saving.

When you look post PS update, that +1S is astronomical on them. Using the same comparison, those 10.67 hits turn into 8.00 wounds now (35% better return than S3) statistically still at -4. Tear them Down and you're at near 10(9.48) wounds on average. That's pretty monstrous. And really doesn't need a full unit either way. Take two MSU of them if you want, and you can split engage them that much easier if you're wanting them.

If you take the Passion:

Current- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 4.56 initial wounds, 3.04 from Rapturous at 7.60 wounds total
Post- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 6.84 initial wounds, 3.42 from Rapturous at 10.26, and you don't even need the strategem

Passion is great is you're going into melee mode with Ret, Zeph, and possibly even Seraphim to tie up back lines. Tagging those relic scorpius is amazing since they are blast, they do next to nothing to the girls and you stop a 250 pt unit from being annoying.

If you're using another order, that becomes more of a point to take better than MSU. I've never tried them on anything but VH or BR myself. VH they have some durability if you don't need strike them but use as your vangaurd melee deterrent. I'm still hard pressed to use other orders. Ebon is the only one that I see being viable as a 5+++ in a durability war is pretty damning with the new Imperial firepower, but the girls do tend to hold out well even still with SOF when needed. I may change up the VH to Ebon though, but need to playtest, if we see the meta shift from bulk fire -1/-2 into hard hitting weapons.

Personally, at S3 I for sure would never take 5(exception being I'm just using them to buff mortifiers on the drop). Killing 3 primaris and surviving is fine, but it doesn't actually accomplish much. Zephyrim don't have obsec so you either need to eliminate a meaningful target with them or sweep an objective entirely. 5 at S3 can't do that. 5 at S4 might be able to so they're a more interesting choice once the power weapon buffs come in.

In a pure BR list, min squads are only useful if you're going full morties because of how ridiculously tight Bloody Rose's elite slots are. Even just using them as buff bots, I'd still probably shoot for getting a squad of ten. In mixed lists you tend to have more slot freedom so MSU might be a really good option there.

Part of what I think makes bloody rose so good is the fact that you can just pick the passion blind and know you're getting massive value out of it. It's easily the most powerful of the sacred rights unless you're up against something like smitespam thousand sons.

Are people still taking the relic scorpius? I haven't even heard of one of those hitting the table in a long time. Not when everybody and their brother is running quad-las contemptors.

As for orders, the only melee I would really consider taking outside of BR are Arcos and morties. Zephyrim hit like limp noodles without the extra attack and AP and repentia lose almost half of their output. Don't underestimate Argent Shroud, btw. Once we get the good guns going you're going to be able to do some really silly things with argent shroud BSS squads and ESPECIALLY MM Immolators.

See, i'm torn on that. On an MSU MEQ squad, I'd rather be stuck in combat knowing I go first on their turn to finish them off statistically during their phase fighting (unless there are multiple ongoing fights). I like it because while you're correct that in all likelihood and this gives them the primary obj points, but I now spent minimal points on a unit that they couldn't turn and shoot to remove off the space. If your 10 man cleans up their unit, they're now likely gone. This way, i not only survive with most if not all of them, but I also have them controlling it quite possibly on our T3 for primary obj points on a 13-24" threat range to go clear up or tie up another unit.

I think Sisters players put a little too much emphasis on destroying when tying and surviving is a real strength. Part of why Nurglings are so feared atm. We can do it almost as well, but our offensive output is higher. Less wounds, obviously, but trapping into combat is quite powerful without the need to wipe.

They've been relatively prominent lately in addition to the contemptors. The CA/UK GT at the start of Aug had a Salamander list take 1st with one. Looking at other GT lists, they appear in other top 5 lists fairly frequently along with their Hellforged breathren in CSM lists. I've also seen them popping up a lot in TTS playtest scenarios and performing well. I've only seen the contemptors hit top tables in the Sob/IF list from Dan S. While they hit hard, they don't seem to be pushing top lists forward much. And i think Dan's list succeeded with them because the Sisters took the front line with the 27 repentia

AS may well prove powerful with the ability to move and shoot without penalty on the gun toting side of our army. Def something I need to look into with the post heavy changes. Good call to look at.

Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.

Has anyone else considered this possibility?

 davidgr33n wrote:
Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.

Has anyone else considered this possibility?

Crusaders are only 6 points more expensive for the pair and a 3++. Add +1S powerwords and I think they'd be the best option for that sort of thing (and a totally obnoxious tenner to pop out of a rhino.)

 davidgr33n wrote:
Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.

Has anyone else considered this possibility?

Drones don't have the infantry keyword they can't do the majority of actions certainly none of the base secondaries ' vital intelligence is the only one I can think of.

I've included 3 squads of DCA in my BR list, since they don't take a detachment slot.

Given the melta change are Immolators now even remotely competitive again if you were already planning on running some rhinos?

Tel11 wrote:
Given the melta change are Immolators now even remotely competitive again if you were already planning on running some rhinos?

With the combined changes to meltas and heavy bolters, immolators are a perfectly viable option. The problem before was that you could take a rhino and 50pts of literally anything and outperform what an immolator could do for the same points.

Now that the MM immolators firepower has more than doubled, assuming no big points hike, they become pretty scary. You could very likely even see a return to 6th-7th edition immospam lists of 5+ with small squads of dominions or battle sisters camping out in them to take objectives after they pop.

Also don't forget that we can auto explode immolators, so killing them in CQC is very risky for a lot of armies.

Scout squad sheet leaked. As you can see, bolters are still listed at 24" range there. Heavy bolter is still 3 shots.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/520309463773872128/746510950240223322/image0.png

I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?

Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.

Yziel wrote:
I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?

Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.

Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.

The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.

As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.

Yziel wrote:
I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?

Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.

It's irrelevant. The amount of difference when you take into account the loss of the single shot at 24" range is probably like .0004 wounds on average.

Why wouldn't you be able to equip 2 pistols? Bolt pistols are also found both in the pistol and ranged lists. So there shouldn't be anything stopping you from replacing the boltgun with a second pistol.

Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.

The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.

As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.

To the validity of it. I could be misreading things but the codex, battlescribe and wahapedia all allow it since a Superior can change her Boltgun for a weapon on the Ranged Weapons list which does contain the Bolt pistol.

The reason I want to do it is because Pistols get AP -1 with Bloody Rose so I get 2 shots at range 12 with AP -1 instead of 1 shot at 24 with AP 0 or 2 shots at 12 with AP 0.

Please correct me if there is a rule or errata I've missed because I wouldn't want to model them with an invalid loadout obviously xD

You are correct. I forgot the Bolt Pistol was on the Ranged Weapon list as well as the Pistol list. Still, you give up a lot of range to take advantage of the -1 AP on pistols.

What's the viability of using retributor squads with less than 4 heavy weapons? MMs are pretty pricey, so having a squad with just 2 MMs and cherubs is a lot easier points wise, but am I wasting their utility by doing so?

Currently, I can't see what a pair of Multi-meltas can actually achieve. You can add a could of Armorium Cherubs to allow you one round of 4 MM shots, but that's not going to exactly destroy anything of note.

When the new Multi-Melta comes to town, it starts looking much more viable.

 alextroy wrote:
Currently, I can't see what a pair of Multi-meltas can actually achieve. You can add a could of Armorium Cherubs to allow you one round of 4 MM shots, but that's not going to exactly destroy anything of note.

When the new Multi-Melta comes to town, it starts looking much more viable.

I am in such an early stage of build, nothing would be ready until the October change so my question is purely with 2 shot MM in mind. That's 8 MM shots (using cherubs) from a unit that costs 110pts, and allows me to spread weapons out a little more to create target saturation (I figure 4 MM rets will be a priority target)

Yziel wrote:

Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.

The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.

As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.

To the validity of it. I could be misreading things but the codex, battlescribe and wahapedia all allow it since a Superior can change her Boltgun for a weapon on the Ranged Weapons list which does contain the Bolt pistol.

The reason I want to do it is because Pistols get AP -1 with Bloody Rose so I get 2 shots at range 12 with AP -1 instead of 1 shot at 24 with AP 0 or 2 shots at 12 with AP 0.

Please correct me if there is a rule or errata I've missed because I wouldn't want to model them with an invalid loadout obviously xD

It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.

Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.

ERJAK wrote:

It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.

Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, maybe if it was only one model but my list will have 7-8 models that have either a boltgun or twin bolt pistol and at that point I do believe it's worth actually thinking about.

My list will generally not castle, it should be moving up the board so averaging out playing against aggressive lists and castles I still believe I should be within 12" often enough to be worth getting the -1AP shots.

If anyone has any experiences to relate that would be cool though! I'll probably give them pistols because it's cooler.

if you have the points to spare you could even splurge for bolt pistol plasma pistol superiors, and pretend cypher is leading all your units.

Yziel wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.

Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, maybe if it was only one model but my list will have 7-8 models that have either a boltgun or twin bolt pistol and at that point I do believe it's worth actually thinking about.

My list will generally not castle, it should be moving up the board so averaging out playing against aggressive lists and castles I still believe I should be within 12" often enough to be worth getting the -1AP shots.

If anyone has any experiences to relate that would be cool though! I'll probably give them pistols because it's cooler.

That's as good of a reason as any to equip them that way.

The amount of damage that one additional bolt shot outside of 12" does is exactly equivalent to the extra damage -1 ap on 2 bolt shots does. So for it to make a difference you'd need two turns of shooting minimum after turn one to go positive on damage.

So with bolt pistols if you don't shoot turn one and do shoot turn two, it's exactly the same damage as a bolt gun. If you then shoot turn three, the bolt pistols are better. If you die or don't have a target turn 3, bolt guns are better.

It's incredibly close at all times. Play them how you like.