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3 SR4, AP-4 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.75 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. Almost 85% of your attacks deal between 0 and 1.5 unsaved damage.
3 S5, AP-3 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.84 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. Almost 81% of your attacks will deal between 0 and 1.6 unsaved damage.
3 S6, AP-2 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.67 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. 87% of those attacks will deal between 0 and 1.4 unsaved damage.
Basically, against standard Marines there's not much difference in the three weapons. You just have to decide if you want a 1.4% chance of 3 damage (power sword), a 2% chance of 3 damage (power axe), or a 1.1% chance of 3 damage (maul).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 17:13:14
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 17:28:10
Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
I expect Sororitas units that are Characters or Vehicles to be core, finishing off any mech lists and ending my beatstick/buff bot debate w/ Canoness. It'll be a while before we get another Codex though, so I wouldn't worry too much yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Araablane wrote: Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
Why wouldn't Zephyrim or Seraphim be CORE? If terminators are core basically all of our infantry are likely to be CORE. Almost everything in the army with boots on the ground is a battle sister with extra steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Araablane wrote: Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Honestly? You only have 320pts left and you're OoML. OoML functions by building small gains over time as their unit dies and leveraging the extra power from the +1 to hit, extra miracle dice, and Junith's reroll 1s. With only what? 600pts of your lists as SoB, you're best off with just as many battle sisters as you can fit for standing on objectives. Maybe an imagifier for Ap-1 but it's not really necessary.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 19:01:21
Given the ridiculous number of ways to "buff one unit" to be quite good...Nd given how few units sisters have in comparison to marines etc... I just don't get how nerfing Sisters much makes sense. Repentia are cool, but rhino is mandatory or you probably dont take them? So I hear what people are saying, that they are cheap...but then I see what blood angels do with just 3 of the new bikers for 135 and its like: gimme a break! We need no help returning Repentia to shelves. Already took away str 8. They've sucked for a century. I really hope they don't screw them. Let us have our Riptide. Add a point per model or something if they feel that way but pleeeeease don't take away the basic way they work! We'll see.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: Given the ridiculous number of ways to "buff one unit" to be quite good...Nd given how few units sisters have in comparison to marines etc... I just don't get how nerfing Sisters much makes sense. Repentia are cool, but rhino is mandatory or you probably dont take them? So I hear what people are saying, that they are cheap...but then I see what blood angels do with just 3 of the new bikers for 135 and its like: gimme a break! We need no help returning Repentia to shelves. Already took away str 8. They've sucked for a century. I really hope they don't screw them. Let us have our Riptide. Add a point per model or something if they feel that way but pleeeeease don't take away the basic way they work! We'll see.
Repentia are generally considered superior to both blood angel and space wolf outriders, even accounting for the cost of the rhino.
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Repentia are being taken even unbuffed or with just a superior in very competitive lists, even if they DID lose the priest they'd still be amazingly good for their price. Hell, against most units in the game a unit of 9 unbuffed or just tear them down repentia are massively overkill. They average 33 wounds with tear it down against anything T5 3+ or worse. That's 16 intercessors or 8 SS vanguard vets (with the new profiles) with just tear. They're a little wonky with 3 wound models because of the flat 2 swords but the passion will usually make up for damage lost.
Repentia, in my experience are a worthwhile unit to put into reserves. That generally allows them to go after something valuable before getting quickly mowed down.
Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
A bloody rose army won't care much about the changes though, just -1 or 2 hits in combat for the canoness basically.
Not all auras are also going to work only on CORE units, so far we only know that re-rolls have this limitation. GW's intention was to remove the tactic of keeping a captain in the backfield babysitting tanks. Auras like FNP or the ork KFF will continue to work on anything, so maybe even the Imagifier's aura could do it.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior.
I think Repentia and Zeph/Ser will likely be CORE units.
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Imagifier is far superior than a preacher. +1A doesn't matter that much but S8 means they can hit harder anything but T5 models (and T3 but no one will ever want Repentia clashing against T3 models).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 07:02:18
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Imagifier is far superior than a preacher. +1A doesn't matter that much but S8 means they can hit harder anything but T5 models (and T3 but no one will ever want Repentia clashing against T3 models).
I dont want to be OML, i can use any as it wil be a custom color scheme like my knights have.
I only want Celestine and the three knights, thats it, rest is free for all because i know nothing about SoB.
This will be for the look of the army, not something competitive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:03:42
They changed it (back) to 3x2+1=7. (As opposed to (3+1)x2=8)
Is it in the 9th rulebook or in some FAQ?
Now the Imagifier is useful only for a single litany. Sad. And maybe just to have a model with Beacon and/or Litanies of Faith on the table as the canoness may be inside a vehicle or limited to 0-1 like SM captains.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:30:41
Honest question: how do we think the new CORE rules effect 1. Commissars, and 2. Leadership and 3. Conscripts. I am betting Auras will not work on conscripts, and even then, I am betting the leadership of the Lord Commissar will only effect guard squads and not 'scripts.
I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
They changed it (back) to 3x2+1=7. (As opposed to (3+1)x2=8)
Is it in the 9th rulebook or in some FAQ?
Now the Imagifier is useful only for a single litany. Sad. And maybe just to have a model with Beacon and/or Litanies of Faith on the table as the canoness may be inside a vehicle or limited to 0-1 like SM captains.
The rules for modifiers in the basic rules covers weapons. There is no more model vs weapon strength modifier difference.
As for the Imagifier, pumping Sisters to S4 and Powerswords to S5 is worthwhile in my book.
New 40k player here. I just bought a painted sister army off Ebay for 860 pounds incl. shipping/import fee (feel a bit overpaid, but of well).
Yeah, i do not have time to paint with my job and being a new father (don't judge).
Not sure what I should build with it. I feel the engines are not that great given lack of other mech targets for AT. Is there enough models for a decent 2000 point list? After reading these posts and the codex, feels like it would be a VH foot slogging list with a BR detachment for flyers and repentia.
Ooops, here is the link:
Link's dead for me - can you list out what you have?
VH and BR are a solid combination, though with the 9th edition rules, BR-only seems to be on the uptick.
alextroy wrote: Given there will not be a new AS codex before February 2023, how about we not tie up this thread with a CORE keyword theory debate?
Fixed.
I think its fair to say that such a change to the game is going to trigger some discussion. And everyone seems to think that virtually all of SoB are basically going to be CORE, which I both get their point of view and disagree with simply by way of the fact we have the Ministorum vs Sororitas split already. I don't think every Sororitas is going to be CORE by way of "its sisters" or all of the SM book would be CORE as "its SMs". And simply removing vehicles from it likely isn't the case or they'd have just indicated AURAs don't influence vehicles.
That said, I do agree that there isn't much use in speculating it in depth simply because we don't even have the SM or Necron books to see what they do with it there to compare against.
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kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Sure its important to a degree, but you only need 1 to stop non obsec enemies from controlling it, so min still does the job. And against higher volume obsec opponents, you're girls are going to usually need support from other sources to maintain control of it, so min still does what we need by allowing points elsewhere. Truthfully, Sisters works virtually just as if not more effectively at MSU than most armies out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 14:29:00
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 17:34:25
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
It's deployed with the rest of your army, as part of your army. It can't be set up in reserves though.
Based on...what? It's SOB unit. It only becomes terrain when it's set up.
As crazy as it might sound outflanking sanctum is quite a thing and if your deployment zone is crowded can be only way to get it legally in. Albeit useless as you get MD turn 3 earliest.
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
It's deployed with the rest of your army, as part of your army. It can't be set up in reserves though.
Based on...what? It's SOB unit. It only becomes terrain when it's set up.
As crazy as it might sound outflanking sanctum is quite a thing and if your deployment zone is crowded can be only way to get it legally in. Albeit useless as you get MD turn 3 earliest.
No, the Fortification FAQ rule they added to the Core rulebook indicates that Fortifications cannot be setup in Strategic Reserves. Lammia is correct. Here is what was added:
Page 247
Add the following sub-section:
FORTIFICATIONS
Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features
that are part of your army. Unless otherwise stated, when
setting Fortifications up on the battlefield, they cannot be set up
within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own
datasheet (excluding hills, page 260). If it is not possible to set up
a Fortification as a result, it cannot be deployed and counts as
having been destroyed. Fortifications can never be placed into
Strategic Reserves (pg 256).
If you're still doing that post those note, which was back in July, its not a legal move.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 21:40:15
Araablane wrote: I dont want to be OML, i can use any as it wil be a custom color scheme like my knights have.
I only want Celestine and the three knights, thats it, rest is free for all because i know nothing about SoB.
This will be for the look of the army, not something competitive.
Well, with the points you have left. Boots of various forms and an Imagifier or some other support character and maybe a Canoness.
Makes sanctum even more of a risk. 11"x11" empty area in your dz is hardly sure thing.
Pointless limit. Hardly broken anyway and just makes faction terrain "just don't bother". Guess gw sold enough already zero sales don't bother
Yeah, its rough right now. They implemented it as the sanctum was being specifically used to chain terrain together and prevent anything but breachable moving thru it. I personally think its a bit of a piss on people having spent 120 bucks on it to turn around and say with 18 terrain peices on the board that you can't replace one of for it, that its now "considered destroyed" if it can't be placed. 55 pt risk isn't terrible, but it shouldn't just be a "can't fit, gone" mentality to it either.
98 Models Total Points and CP Cost 2000 -5CP resulting in 7 starting CP
So trying out foot slogging. So 4++/5+++ repentia do okay to take all the enemies fire. So gets 2 miracle dice per turn and start with 7 CP. Not sure if I should keep any retributors in strategic reserves, but they can march up with the army to get the re-rolls to hits and 4++ saves as they don't suffer -1 to hit for moving and shooting those MM. Almost 100 models, but 98 models should be large enough given its 17 MSU plus 4 HQ to get objectives.
Which Sacred Rite would help this list the most? Should I keep repentia or replace with something else? Are the celestians worth it for bodyguard duty?
98 Models Total Points and CP Cost 2000 -5CP resulting in 7 starting CP
So trying out foot slogging. So 4++/5+++ repentia do okay to take all the enemies fire. So gets 2 miracle dice per turn and start with 7 CP. Not sure if I should keep any retributors in strategic reserves, but they can march up with the army to get the re-rolls to hits and 4++ saves as they don't suffer -1 to hit for moving and shooting those MM. Almost 100 models, but 98 models should be large enough given its 17 MSU plus 4 HQ to get objectives.
Which Sacred Rite would help this list the most? Should I keep repentia or replace with something else? Are the celestians worth it for bodyguard duty?
It's better to summarize the units than to kick out a huge massive wall of text like that, makes it easier to read. Like putting 'bloody rose order' in every unit listing instead of just at the top clutters things up pretty badly.
Is it a brigade just for the 3rd canoness? Because that's not really worth it when going down to a battalion would let you take more Celestians instead of battle sisters. Retributors are probably better in reserves as min squads. I probably wouldn't take 3 squads regardless though. They're very resource intensive to the point where they're actually kind of anti-synergistic with themselves. Taking a squad of Mortifiers or even just switching one squad to heavy bolters would likely work better in the long run.
The biggest problem you've got is that you're incredibly immobile. Without VH's defensive bonuses and with only Repentia and some Canoness being able to kill things unbuffed, you're going to absolutely need to stay inside your bubbles to survive or kill anything. Any unit that doesn't have the imagifier's buff won't be able to kill anything (again, except the repentia and canoness) Anything that doesn't have the 4++ and immune to -1 will die instantly. Unfortunately that means you'll likely only be able to contest one objective at a time and you won't be able to react to your opponent's actions very quickly(having a single bubble in practice cuts between 2-3 inches of total movement including advances). The seraphim are useful for reaching out and touching something but in general they won't be able to clear anything but vehicles off of objectives.
My experience with 9th so far is that you generally want to be able to split your army into two competent halves and contest both sides of the board. A single blob is often too slow to contest primaries while simulataneously giving up secondaries like raise the banners and the table quarters one relatively easily. It's why I generally don't bother with the 4++ unless I'm running valorous heart and it's why I find transporting melee units to be significantly stronger than foot slog.
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
Still a valid point!
One small quibble, even with the new coherency rules, 10 battle sisters can stretch A LOT farther and still be in range of aura buffs. Bigger squads help mitigate aura based builds naturally tendency to be extremely slow.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honest question: how do we think the new CORE rules effect 1. Commissars, and 2. Leadership and 3. Conscripts. I am betting Auras will not work on conscripts, and even then, I am betting the leadership of the Lord Commissar will only effect guard squads and not 'scripts.
I think you're in the wrong thread friend.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/20 11:21:26
