SM: omni scrambler or auspex scan vs. Da jump or similar?

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**Octopoid**

Sterling191 wrote:
p5freak wrote:

Citation please.

The BRB defines Reinforcements thusly:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

The BRB rules for disembarking are as follows:

Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

They are in separate sections, and disembarking units are functionally different from units being set up as reinforcements. Therefore, they are not reinforcements.

Well said!

**Spreelock**

Dude, the rules from the infiltrators and captain in phobos armour datasheets clearly states that enemy units set up as reinforcement cannot be set up within 12".

**p5freak**

Sterling191 wrote:
p5freak wrote:

Citation please.

The BRB defines Reinforcements thusly:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

The BRB rules for disembarking are as follows:

Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

They are in separate sections, and disembarking units are functionally different from units being set up as reinforcements. Therefore, they are not reinforcements.

Disembarking units fit the description of reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

**Sterling191**

p5freak wrote:

Disembarking units fit the description of reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

And do not meet *any* of the other descriptions, restrictions, or rules interactions of reinforcements. You're so fixated on the words "set up" that you're incapable of considering any other context, and the end result is a tour de force of pedantry that makes BCB blush with envy.

According to your logic, a save roll and a wound roll both use a d6, therefore they are both hit rolls. You see how idiotic that is?

**Octopoid**

p5freak wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
p5freak wrote:

Citation please.

The BRB defines Reinforcements thusly:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

The BRB rules for disembarking are as follows:

Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

They are in separate sections, and disembarking units are functionally different from units being set up as reinforcements. Therefore, they are not reinforcements.

Disembarking units fit the description of reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

They also have specific rules separate for them from reinforcements. "Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn." Reinforcements cannot do these things. Therefore, disembarking units are not reinforcements.

**blaktoof**

Fwiw da jump isn't reinforcements and uses the same set up wording as reinforcements and is effected by Omni scrambler.

The rules for da jump are also separate from the reinforcement rules so not sure either of those points make disembark not effected by Omni scrambler, or auspex scan.

The FAQ answer that embarked units count as being setup on the battlefield however keeps them out of the box of the FAQ answer for what happens when an unit is setup bis removed then setup again as the embarked unit is never removed from the battlefield by being embarked.

**p5freak**

blaktoof wrote:
Fwiw da jump isn't reinforcements...

Citation please where it says that they arent reinforcements. Da jump also fits the description of reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

**JohnnyHell**

p5freak wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Fwiw da jump isn't reinforcements...

Citation please where it says that they arent reinforcements. Da jump also fits the description of reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

Regardless, Rulebook FAQ page 9 says:

Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers),
and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:

1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

...and then onto more things that might apply. From this first bit though it’s clear that you can use Auspex Scan etc vs Da Jump’d units.

**blaktoof**

Da jump is not reinforcements. The FAQ lumps it in with reinforcements for rules interactions for thinks like auspex and omni scrambler because the unit is removed from the table then setup again.

Embarked units per the FAQ are deployed setup on the battlefield, disembarking doesn't remove them from the battlefield and set them up again like da jump, gate, dmc, etc. So disembarking isn't covered by reinforcements or the FAQ answer.

**JohnnyHell**

Agreed. Didn’t think that was even in question.

**p5freak**

blaktoof wrote:
Da jump is not reinforcements.

Da Jump
If Manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons

The psychic phase is mid turn, and they are set up on the battlefield. Thats the description of reinforcements.

**blaktoof**

p5freak wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Da jump is not reinforcements.

Da Jump
If Manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons

The psychic phase is mid turn, and they are set up on the battlefield. Thats the description of reinforcements.

No.

If they were reinforcements there would not need to be a FAQ explaining they are effected by things that effect reinforcements, further they are not deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment, so they are not reinforcements. Only the FAQ answer makes them effected.

**flandarz**

If Da Jumped and Embarked Units were reinforcements, you wouldn't be able to use Da Jump (and similar Powers) in the first battle round, nor would you be able to Disembark during the first battle round. You'd be led to an irreconcilable conflict of the rules if your opponent destroyed a Transport during the first round as well (you're told to Disembark, if you have space, but Reinforcements says you can't be set-up).

I don't know if p5 is just trolling or what, but taking a single snippet of the rules, comparing it to another snippet, and saying "see?! These two wordings are the same, so everything else about them is exactly the same too!" is about the dumbest thing I've seen.

**BaconCatBug**

flandarz wrote:
If Da Jumped and Embarked Units were reinforcements, you wouldn't be able to use Da Jump (and similar Powers) in the first battle round, nor would you be able to Disembark during the first battle round. You'd be led to an irreconcilable conflict of the rules if your opponent destroyed a Transport during the first round as well (you're told to Disembark, if you have space, but Reinforcements says you can't be set-up).

I don't know if p5 is just trolling or what, but taking a single snippet of the rules, comparing it to another snippet, and saying "see?! These two wordings are the same, so everything else about them is exactly the same too!" is about the dumbest thing I've seen.

That isn't true. Arriving as Reinforcements is not the same as arriving as Reinforcements from outside the battlefield. The latter is restricted by the Tactical Reserves rule, the former is not.

Omni-Scramblers unambiguously works on Da Jump style effects, and while the RaW does allow it to work on disembarking that is a step too far even for me (at least, I would follow it but I doubt anyone else will).

**nekooni**

blaktoof wrote:
p5freak wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Da jump is not reinforcements.

Da Jump
If Manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons

The psychic phase is mid turn, and they are set up on the battlefield. Thats the description of reinforcements.

No.

If they were reinforcements there would not need to be a FAQ explaining they are effected by things that effect reinforcements, further they are not deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment, so they are not reinforcements. Only the FAQ answer makes them effected.

FAQs are - from the authors PoV at least - explanations of existing rules, not errata. You can't argue that just because someone asked a question, and that question was answered, the answer didn't exist beforehand.

**Stux**

That doesnt wash I'm afraid. There are multiple examples of GW faqs that absolutely change the rule in question.

FAQs SHOULD just be clarifications, but that doesnt mean that is all they are I'm afraid.

**nekooni**

Stux wrote:
That doesnt wash I'm afraid. There are multiple examples of GW faqs that absolutely change the rule in question.

FAQs SHOULD just be clarifications, but that doesnt mean that is all they are I'm afraid.

a) which is why I qualified it.
b) how does that invalidate my argument, though? Yes, it is possible that GW at times changes how rules work in a FAQ reply, but that still doesn't allow an argument of "if there's a FAQ entry, it must have been different before the FAQ!".

**Stux**

nekooni wrote:
Stux wrote:
That doesnt wash I'm afraid. There are multiple examples of GW faqs that absolutely change the rule in question.

FAQs SHOULD just be clarifications, but that doesnt mean that is all they are I'm afraid.

a) which is why I qualified it.
b) how does that invalidate my argument, though? Yes, it is possible that GW at times changes how rules work in a FAQ reply, but that still doesn't allow an argument of "if there's a FAQ entry, it must have been different before the FAQ!".

Fair enough, objection withdrawn.

It means it MAY have been different before the FAQ. But we dont know for sure.