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Hello all,

So with the release of Blood Of Baal, and Blood Angels receiving some updated rules etc, How are Blood Angels currently doing competitive wise, and if you are a BA player, are you happy with the updates ?

Cheers

I am very happy with the updates. Blood of Baal has at least allowed us to catch up with the new toys that Codex chapters have had since the summer. I have only played one game so far with the new rules but the improvement was obvious, even in an army not built to maximise the new bonuses. It is also nice that things like Sanguinary Guard have got some much needed love in the form if points drop and a couple of shiny new stratagems.

I don't think we are up there with Iron Hands or Aeldari soup but we are much better than we were and I feel like we can at least stand a good chance against most opponents.

They're still no good. If you want melee Marines, you re better served with Codex: Marines.
Death Company Intercessors are neat at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're still no good. If you want melee Marines, you re better served with Codex: Marines.
Death Company Intercessors are neat at least.

I'm curious slayer-fan.. what armies do you play?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're still no good. If you want melee Marines, you re better served with Codex: Marines.
Death Company Intercessors are neat at least.

well, there goes the last shred of credibility you may have had

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're still no good. If you want melee Marines, you re better served with Codex: Marines.
Death Company Intercessors are neat at least.

I'm curious slayer-fan.. what armies do you play?

Various flavors of Marines/Chaos Marines, Necrons, and proxy Skitarii (when everything was lost in the fire, feth putting those things together again). I've also done Custodes proxy but wasn't very happy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're still no good. If you want melee Marines, you re better served with Codex: Marines.
Death Company Intercessors are neat at least.

well, there goes the last shred of credibility you may have had

Not really. It's around the equivalent of people saying World Eaters are super good for melee Marines. Reality is they aren't.

imagine thinking BA are on par with World Eaters, I just can't grasp being that out of touch with competitive play and still speaking on it with authority

I'm also kinda curious as to how Slayer-Fan came to that conclusion, between +1 to wound for the first round of combat (and if you get charged) and +1 to charge, that's pretty frickin' good if you ask me. It really lets you leverage shock assault while also making it easier for guys like smash captains and other assault units get stuck in. If you go pure BA as well, you get another +1 attack to go along with Shock Assault. This means a squad of 5 Intercessors are making 20 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 3's or possibly 2's on a lot of infantry, and allows even 4-5's at worst against vehicles. Marines are still by far a shooty army, but with death company and the deep strike based stratagems available I don't see how BA aren't one the upper tier loyalist chapters for cc. White Scars and maybe successor chapter tactic combo optimized for CC are the only ones that come to mind as being competitors (it pains my heart to see BT not really get buffed that much at CC compared to others).

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm also kinda curious as to how Slayer-Fan came to that conclusion, between +1 to wound for the first round of combat (and if you get charged) and +1 to charge, that's pretty frickin' good if you ask me. It really lets you leverage shock assault while also making it easier for guys like smash captains and other assault units get stuck in. Marines are still by far a shooty army, but with death company and the deep strike based stratagems available I don't see how BA aren't one the upper tier loyalist chapters for cc. White Scars and maybe successor chapter tactic combo optimized for CC are the only ones that come to mind as being competitors (it pains my heart to see BT not really get buffed that much at CC compared to others).

It's because they can't get to combat outside of spending a couple of Strats. Why do you think Slamguinus was popular? They're a good melee Character, not a good melee army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
imagine thinking BA are on par with World Eaters, I just can't grasp being that out of touch with competitive play and still speaking on it with authority

+1 to wound means crap if you can't leverage it. Outside Slamguinus, Blood Angels can't leverage it. Ergo, they're worse than White Scars and Raven Guard.

Blood of baal doesnt change anything for BA really in a top level sense I think. We got better in the one thing we already did good and this just makes it a bit cheaper and a bit more reliable but thats about it.

We got 0 buffs for our ranged units so our fire base sucks. Codex marines have TFCs and about twice as effective shooting in a shooty edition. Its better to go 75% shooting, and kill screens and targets that are too deep in their lines to get in CC reliable, and 25% melee to efficiently kill off those things resistant to shooting. Codex marines do that very well while BA doesnt.

Since we dont make other marines lose doctrines anymore I do think we will see astartes soup include a BA detachment and do very well. BA paired with IF ignore cover firebase of TFCs and intercessors or RG cheat in even more melee while still having better shooting than BA or UM with aggressive invictors and redeploy strat will all work well I think. BA will place in tournaments but probably not as pure BA lists but rather as usual with a single supreme command or batalion

But it is more fun and plays more consistent so in more casual games it is great but at events it probably wont do to well. We still lose if opponent manages to screen well or there isnt enough terrain.

BA are very strong now. On a par with most of the codex chapters. It's not just the updated rules but significant point drops in units.

 Ishagu wrote:
BA are very strong now. On a par with most of the codex chapters. It's not just the updated rules but significant point drops in units.

Is it safe to assume my Dark Angels will get the same treatment? Honestly, I don't even want to be as powerful as Space Marines, but I want to at least stay on the table past turn 2.

Some interesting comments, appreciate everyone’s time.

Do Blood Angels also get access to the devastator and tactical doctrine as well?, as that would be a boost in my view

Shinzra wrote:
Some interesting comments, appreciate everyone’s time.

Do Blood Angels also get access to the devastator and tactical doctrine as well?, as that would be a boost in my view

We do but unfortunately its hard to capitalize on them as well in BA as for most of the other chapters. Same problem as white scars.

BA are one of the absolute strongest factions in the game. Their only competition is a few of the other SM chapters. If anyone is saying otherwise, there's no real point in listening to that.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
BA are very strong now. On a par with most of the codex chapters. It's not just the updated rules but significant point drops in units.

Is it safe to assume my Dark Angels will get the same treatment? Honestly, I don't even want to be as powerful as Space Marines, but I want to at least stay on the table past turn 2.

keep in mind the space marine buffs mostly apply to our firepower, dark angels will likely benifit more then blood angels from doctrines as your super doctrine'll almost certainly come into effect in tactical (or even devestator) doctrines.

Actually one thing I'd like to see is dark angels have sort of a 3 pronged super doctrine with ravenwing units getting some bonuses while in devestator doctrine (they're the first strike assists of the chapter) "greenwing" getting some tactical doctrine bonus, and death wing getting an assault doctrine bonus.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
BA are one of the absolute strongest factions in the game. Their only competition is a few of the other SM chapters. If anyone is saying otherwise, there's no real point in listening to that.

You mean as an allied detachment of specific Characters and Units, nobody is gonna run BA by themselves thinking they can compete with broken mono IF/IH

BA got quite a bit better with Blood of Baal but it's still the case that the same problems remain from the previous Codex. As an assault-based and jump pack-heavy army we need ways to reliably get into combat and GW have decided that speed will largely replace durability in the BA army. So you're super-dependent on making an 8" charge from Deep Strike and even with a bunch of ways to make it easier you can still basically lose games on the spot with a set of bad rolls. That's why the smash-captain was so popular in other SM armies - you can easily guarantee a single charge through combining a bunch of Relics and strats but once you need 2+ units to make their charges you're relying a bit too much on luck.

The access to Doctrines is great but Assault is not a great one to emphasise because you have to wait for the bonus and it typically has less impact because it lasts less time and, in some cases, the game can be almost over by the time you get to turn 3. GW doesn't seem to have realised that Devastator is by far the best Doctrine even before you take the super-Doctrines into account, and Assault the worst, and hasn't really adjusted the super-Doctrines accordingly.

It's good we finally got some decent points drops on things like Sanguinary Guard but I would have liked to have seen more on things like Predators and, especially, Baal Predators, which are so bad I'm now convinced GW doesn't realise all their weapons are Heavy, not Assault. It's the only explanation I can think of outside of complete incompetence (which is also pretty likely given who we're dealing with).

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
BA are one of the absolute strongest factions in the game. Their only competition is a few of the other SM chapters. If anyone is saying otherwise, there's no real point in listening to that.

You mean as an allied detachment of specific Characters and Units, nobody is gonna run BA by themselves thinking they can compete with broken mono IF/IH

I suspect I'd rather have blood angels then IFs if I was fighting say... 'nids.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
BA are one of the absolute strongest factions in the game. Their only competition is a few of the other SM chapters. If anyone is saying otherwise, there's no real point in listening to that.

You mean as an allied detachment of specific Characters and Units, nobody is gonna run BA by themselves thinking they can compete with broken mono IF/IH

"The army isn't one of the literal top 1 and 2 factions in the game, it mustn't be any good!"

It's literally fractions below them in terms of power level, still stronger than almost everything else in the game, and with a completely different flavor to the above two factions, granting better match ups here and there as said by Davion.



I don't know why some people bother commenting, because it's certainly not with the goal of giving a good answer to the question. I've noticed some people whose every second post just seems like a perpetual whine about Iron Hands and Imperial Fists (or whoever else may be on top that month). Sometimes less subtle than others. Now being one of those times.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
BA are one of the absolute strongest factions in the game. Their only competition is a few of the other SM chapters. If anyone is saying otherwise, there's no real point in listening to that.

You mean as an allied detachment of specific Characters and Units, nobody is gonna run BA by themselves thinking they can compete with broken mono IF/IH

"The army isn't one of the literal top 1 and 2 factions in the game, it mustn't be any good!"

It's literally fractions below them in terms of power level, still stronger than almost everything else in the game, and with a completely different flavor to the above two factions, granting better match ups here and there as said by Davion.



I don't know why some people bother commenting, because it's certainly not with the goal of giving a good answer to the question. I've noticed some people whose every second post just seems like a perpetual whine about Iron Hands and Imperial Fists (or whoever else may be on top that month). Sometimes less subtle than others. Now being one of those times.

No, since Blood Angels lack the strongest units, synergies and mechanics that Codex: Space Marines has to offer (Successor Chapter tactics, Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons) they can't be compared to any other Space Marines supplement (which, except for Black Templars and probably Salamanders, are all superior to them especially in a mono chapter environment).
Considering the fact that Space Marines Supplements give entirely different playstyles to the army (akin to a Codex I'd say), there's NO WAY BA are strictly better than anybody except IF/IH

Try again Nitro Zeus

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Considering the fact that Space Marines Supplements give entirely different playstyles to the army (akin to a Codex I'd say), there's NO WAY BA are strictly better than anybody except IF/IH

Awful logic aside, what are you even saying? That BA are better than Fists and Iron Hands but not the other chapters?


I'm not sure what you are on about, but BA are a top tier army, up there with other non-Fist / IH marine armies at the very least. Maybe slightly below them at worst, probably not though). Still one of the strongest armies in the games. At the very least, answering the question "are they competitive" with the word "no" is just utter lunacy.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Considering the fact that Space Marines Supplements give entirely different playstyles to the army (akin to a Codex I'd say), there's NO WAY BA are strictly better than anybody except IF/IH

Awful logic aside, what are you even saying? That BA are better than Fists and Iron Hands but not the other chapters?


I'm not sure what you are on about, but BA are a top tier army, up there with other non-Fist / IH marine armies at the very least. Maybe slightly below them at worst, probably not though). Still one of the strongest armies in the games. At the very least, answering the question "are they competitive" with the word "no" is just utter lunacy.

Melee only armies aren't a thing of 8th. You can build a shooting only list or another list with some added melee elements but a fully tooled up melee list is gonna miss out the most important phase of the game which is sadly the shooting phase (and BA suffer hard from this due to being an army whose bonuses are COMPLETELY locked to melee). I already provided you the reasons why BAs aren't better this super top tier army (and being used as Melee elements isn't what people asked for since most Space Marines players are able to play monomarines and be OP or do very good with them), yet you pinpoint quotes to your favour practically ignoring half of the posts that are telling you the same thing.

I played a couple of games now with the BoB stuff.

My BA seem pretty powerful and interesting to play. If you play with decent terrain and varied missions they are certainly very competitive being highly mobile and lethal in assault when properly supported by there characters which are key to how the army works.
In a straight firefight they will lose to most of the other marine chapters so don't get into a straight firefight ;-)

Sanguinary guard are the standout unit for me now, run them with an ancient warlord with the banner of sacrifice and they are hard to kill, very mobile and can take on more of less anything in assault.

BA rely on their strats very heavily to get to combat and deal max damage so I'd always recommend double battalion and scouts to make them cheap.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Considering the fact that Space Marines Supplements give entirely different playstyles to the army (akin to a Codex I'd say), there's NO WAY BA are strictly better than anybody except IF/IH

Awful logic aside, what are you even saying? That BA are better than Fists and Iron Hands but not the other chapters?


I'm not sure what you are on about, but BA are a top tier army, up there with other non-Fist / IH marine armies at the very least. Maybe slightly below them at worst, probably not though). Still one of the strongest armies in the games. At the very least, answering the question "are they competitive" with the word "no" is just utter lunacy.

Melee only armies aren't a thing of 8th. You can build a shooting only list or another list with some added melee elements but a fully tooled up melee list is gonna miss out the most important phase of the game which is sadly the shooting phase (and BA suffer hard from this due to being an army whose bonuses are COMPLETELY locked to melee). I already provided you the reasons why BAs aren't better this super top tier army (and being used as Melee elements isn't what people asked for since most Space Marines players are able to play monomarines and be OP or do very good with them), yet you pinpoint quotes to your favour practically ignoring half of the posts that are telling you the same thing.

There's like 7 utterly wrong statements made in your post, and I don't even know where to start disassembling it - and it's not like you're going to listen to any of it anyway, so why bother?

BA are a top notch army. You're flat out wrong if you think otherwise and when the results start rolling I'm sure you won't admit it but I guess you'll just stop posting as per usual.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Considering the fact that Space Marines Supplements give entirely different playstyles to the army (akin to a Codex I'd say), there's NO WAY BA are strictly better than anybody except IF/IH

Awful logic aside, what are you even saying? That BA are better than Fists and Iron Hands but not the other chapters?


I'm not sure what you are on about, but BA are a top tier army, up there with other non-Fist / IH marine armies at the very least. Maybe slightly below them at worst, probably not though). Still one of the strongest armies in the games. At the very least, answering the question "are they competitive" with the word "no" is just utter lunacy.

Melee only armies aren't a thing of 8th. You can build a shooting only list or another list with some added melee elements but a fully tooled up melee list is gonna miss out the most important phase of the game which is sadly the shooting phase (and BA suffer hard from this due to being an army whose bonuses are COMPLETELY locked to melee). I already provided you the reasons why BAs aren't better this super top tier army (and being used as Melee elements isn't what people asked for since most Space Marines players are able to play monomarines and be OP or do very good with them), yet you pinpoint quotes to your favour practically ignoring half of the posts that are telling you the same thing.

There's like 7 utterly wrong statements made in your post, and I don't even know where to start disassembling it - and it's not like you're going to listen to any of it anyway, so why bother?

BA are a top notch army. You're flat out wrong if you think otherwise and when the results start rolling I'm sure you won't admit it but I guess you'll just stop posting as per usual.

I don't think we're going to see BA dominating at the top, short of some major rebalancing of the core SM Codex from GW. At a fundamental level, the Devastator Doctrine is much easier to utilise, more forgiving and simply more powerful due to how dominant shooting is in 40k That means SM armies that make better use of Devastator Doctrine will be superior to ones that don't unless there are some pretty serious tricks available to the other Chapters. BA don't get Chapter Masters and can't utilise the custom chapter traits like other SM can. If other SM armies are superior to them, most competitive players will play those SM lists instead of BA for obvious reasons. Also, many SM armies now get access to some form of smash-captain, which was BA's biggest advantage over other SMs. They may not be as good as a BA captain but with SM armies usually wanting to be single-chapter that's usually a minor drawback people are willing to endure.

I'm just not seeing what BA have that sets them apart from other SM chapters to the extent they're going to jump to the top of the meta. As assault armies go, it's debateable they're even the best SM assault army given that WS have seen some success and they have some excellent stratagems for making use of units like Aggressors too, that BA don't get access to, giving them a more rounded army that still gets the job done once they get to T3.

Well, if the comparison is to other SM, that still fits fine by my measure, I'll happily say that we can wait and see how they hold up against other SM chapters, while still comfortably saying they are top notch army just for even being in that discussion, and still likely stronger than most other top tiers out there, making them one of the best armies in this game. I DEFINITELY wouldn't discourage someone from picking up BA for not being competitive enough, they will definitely make top tables very often in the coming months.

I don't see how BA is a top tier army (maybe different definitions of top tier?).

Mid tier, sure. Competitive, alright. "So, you're saying there's a chance" (a bit better than this) but with a chapter bonus that only works on CQC and a super doc that only works t3 or later there are army comps out there that BA just can't deal with.

Not that BA are not vastly improved from their previous levels but needing to wait until t3 to get the -1 ap to and the rest of the CQC goodies makes BA less competitive than the other marine builds that can take advantage of that.

As far as the best builds of each faction (not general strength of the codex but the best WAAC build)

IH/IF, tau, WS/RG and eldar soup are t1 (big advantage vs most armies, shot at 6-0)
chaos soup, UM/sallies t2 (advantage vs most armies, shot at 5-1/6-0)
GSC, orks, eldar, guard, CSM, necrons, custodes, BA, templars, DW, t3 (match-up dependent advantage/disadvantage, 4-2)
GK, DA, SW, demons, others t4 (try not to get tabled by t4, 3-3)

BA probably still work best as a soup ingredient. If GW was doing their job the T1 stuff would have been nerfed and the game would be in a much better place (the gap between t2 and t3 isn't as big as t1 and t2). If you take a dive into the stats you'll notice a lot of the top performing BA lists recently are not pure BA and should be categorized as imperium but whatever.

T4's needs PA like 6 months ago.

Not sure where to put knights as they have some serious auto-lose match ups but also have auto wins (terrible game design, thanks GW).

GSC and Crons may make it out of T3 if they get love in PA but given how pro-imperium those supplements have been I'm not sure if you can put much faith in that.

Sisters seem powerful but I haven't seen them enough to know if they are T2 or T3 (which is a pretty small difference).

Just my 2 cents. I love the chapter, the models are cool. I like the colors (if I was talented enough to work lions into the motif I'd be sooo down) and they have a fun play style. Too many make or break points and hard counters for the army to be truly top tier for me but not something I would feel bad about bringing to a GT (unlike my poor SW/DA at the moment...)

FWIW, I had a buddy of mine run my knight/guard/assassin GT list while I practiced with my new pure BA list that I’ll be taking to a GT at the end of the month, and I steamrolled him pretty viciously. (Itc score 35-12, tabled him turn 5.)

They feel like a strong tier 2 army to me.

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't see how BA aren't one the upper tier loyalist chapters for cc. White Scars and maybe successor chapter tactic combo optimized for CC are the only ones that come to mind as being competitors (it pains my heart to see BT not really get buffed that much at CC compared to others).

I'm actually confindent BT can out-melee Blood Angels. Between Frontline Commander and the better Chaplains it's actually easier for BT to get the melee alpha strike on the BA than the other way around.