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 gorgon wrote:

I see no good reason why anyone should have to be expected to memorize bikes vs. cavalry vs. beasts. It's a wargame, not an RPG.

I don't think you need a million distinctions, but right off the bat cavalry and bikes are very different things, and used in war sometimes for the same purposes, sometimes not. That said, cavalry should probably have different rules than bikes, they interact differently with terrain especially difficult or hazardous terrain that wheeled vehicles may struggle with. Again, wargames should have these distinctions and it's perfectly fine to expect someone to memorize a core thing that won't be changing at the drop at the hat or at the whim of the boys in marketing. Just because it's not an rpg doesn't mean everything should be cookie cutter and loaded with abstraction. As always, complexity vs depth but most people never gave a crap about even talking about how units would interact with terrain. I distinctly remember a 6-7th ed game where an opponent thought it made eminent sense that bikes could just fly through the air two floors to the top of a ruin to assault my scouts, no, sorry, that's just not how context and unit types work. U can bespoke a random number in inches on a unit card and have a stat fest, it really doesn't solve how far gone 8-9th has gone. I remember distinctly a flyer assaulting a bunker in 8th and that was just about when I called it quits. 30k is better off for having terrain rules and detail and armour facings and all the things that annoyed the people that never had time to read rules or barely paint. Some games and hobbies should consist of more than a cursory look at a unit card and a couple hours to glue grey plastic together. If there's a fear for 30k its having it inherit the worse aspects of 40k and the race to the bottom game design.


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 Gert wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I see no good reason why anyone should have to be expected to memorize bikes vs. cavalry vs. beasts.

A - You don't have to memorise it, just read the rules.
B - Depending on the army you play, some of those unit types never come up.

Move characteristics are a fine addition but let's not pretend remembering unit types is a big issue for HH players.

100% this, something that never changes and you interact with all the time really isn't difficult to commit to memory. I've had plenty of acquaintances that only attended the mega battles because they never learned the rules and required all of us to tell them what to roll. I never thought gw would cater the game to that sort of mindset, "I shouldn't have to read, I have money".


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 gorgon wrote:


To me, it isn't the stats or core rules that really make 8th/9th feel like a CCG. That's about the codexes and their layered buffs and combos and gotcha stratagems and such. A lot of the extra complexity of 7th doesn't express itself in better gameplay. Both 7th and AT have armor facings, but one of those games gets much more hot and heavy into unit maneuvering and counter-maneuvers to jockey for/protect against side and rear shots, and it isn't 7th.

Completely dissagree, got far more side and rear shots in 7th and 30k than AT. AT has no core reserves and it's actually pretty hard to get into a titan's rear armour, there's maybe 1 strat for outflank and 1 legio specific for terrible deep strike, unlike the vast amount of disruption units in both 7th and 30k that could come in from a flank or deep strike and hit units in the flank or rear.

Either way, 8-9 did away with that and that's not a direction for 30k to go. The stratagems honestly make AT worse overall if you ask me, a lot of the gotcha stuff is never fun.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Really glad the guy above me isn't in charge of game development.

Really glad you're not in charge of game development.

Jokes on you though, Irbis might not be involved, but the guy that is in charge seems to share his same viewpoints considering they are in fact implementing the thing that you are complaining about and he is defending.

30k is enjoyed because it hasn't gone the route of 8-9th. I'm not sure why we must ruin it for the sake of those who have 9th to play and enjoy.

This is overly dramatic. The ruleset remains fundamentally centered on 7th, there are still Armor Values and facings as well as initiative stats. They haven't "gone the route of 8th and 9th" by making dreadnoughts not vehicles and replacing unit type based movement with a built in movement stat. The fundamental aspects of the game mechanics that make the game what it is are very much rooted in pre-8th 40k (hell even movement stats are, that was a thing in the 1st/2nd ed era).

RazorEdge wrote:
Battletech is since 2019 more alive then ever before.

Because it received continuing support by way of a massive kickstarter that launched a whole new range of miniatures, as well as a number of new rulebooks/sourcebooks (whatever they are called), as well as a number of revised rulebooks. It didn't suddenly and spontaneously get "more alive" on its own.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jokes on you though, Irbis might not be involved, but the guy that is in charge seems to share his same viewpoints considering they are in fact implementing the thing that you are complaining about and he is defending.

It's a rumour. We have no idea what is and is not being implemented.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Completely dissagree, got far more side and rear shots in 7th and 30k than AT. AT has no core reserves and it's actually pretty hard to get into a titan's rear armour, there's maybe 1 strat for outflank and 1 legio specific for terrible deep strike, unlike the vast amount of disruption units in both 7th and 30k that could come in from a flank or deep strike and hit units in the flank or rear.

Either way, 8-9 did away with that and that's not a direction for 30k to go. The stratagems honestly make AT worse overall if you ask me, a lot of the gotcha stuff is never fun.

You kinda made my point though. Yes, side/rear armor gets targeted in 30K/7th, but that's mainly because so many units can just magically appear on the tabletop or can come screaming in one move from halfway across the table to target side or rear armor. That's not a game of maneuver, really...it's not like you've worked to coordinate and position units to bracket targets. It's just press-button gameplay. There's no great tactical depth there.


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 Gert wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I see no good reason why anyone should have to be expected to memorize bikes vs. cavalry vs. beasts.

A - You don't have to memorise it, just read the rules.
B - Depending on the army you play, some of those unit types never come up.

Move characteristics are a fine addition but let's not pretend remembering unit types is a big issue for HH players.

Yeah, all 500 of you. But everyone else who's moved on isn't interested in more complexity where it doesn't need to exist.

 Gert wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jokes on you though, Irbis might not be involved, but the guy that is in charge seems to share his same viewpoints considering they are in fact implementing the thing that you are complaining about and he is defending.

It's a rumour. We have no idea what is and is not being implemented.

The jokes apparently on me though, because they're making a game I won't play or spend money on....




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 gorgon wrote:


You kinda made my point though. Yes, side/rear armor gets targeted in 30K/7th, but that's mainly because so many units can just magically appear on the tabletop or can come screaming in one move from halfway across the table to target side or rear armor. That's not a game of maneuver, really...it's not like you've worked to coordinate and position units to bracket targets. It's just press-button gameplay. There's no great tactical depth there.

Not really, outflank has you sitting on a board edge for a turn and deep strike without something to help from scatter can often mean delay, death or your opponent places the unit very far from said push button... It absolutely is a game of maneuver. And a good one at that.

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

 gorgon wrote:



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 Gert wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I see no good reason why anyone should have to be expected to memorize bikes vs. cavalry vs. beasts.

A - You don't have to memorise it, just read the rules.
B - Depending on the army you play, some of those unit types never come up.

Move characteristics are a fine addition but let's not pretend remembering unit types is a big issue for HH players.

Yeah, all 500 of you. But everyone else who's moved on isn't interested in more complexity where it doesn't need to exist.

Right and they're playing on planet giant L with a sea of grey plastic, mediocrity having a larger buffet table isn't that much of a enticing thing.

 gorgon wrote:
You kinda made my point though. Yes, side/rear armor gets targeted in 30K/7th, but that's mainly because so many units can just magically appear on the tabletop or can come screaming in one move from halfway across the table to target side or rear armor. That's not a game of maneuver, really...it's not like you've worked to coordinate and position units to bracket targets. It's just press-button gameplay. There's no great tactical depth there.

Have you actually played HH? The only basic units that get Outflank are Recon Squads and Javelin Speeders, and Deep Strike is given to Land Speeders, Jetbikes, flyers, Drop Pods, and Jump Pack troops (of which there are 2 in the basic Legion list). Certain Characters or Rites of War can confer these rules to units in an army but those rules are still used sparingly. Deep Strike relies on your army either having mobile forward operating Nuncio Voxes or good luck. Outflank is a one-trick pony that might get you a turn of shooting unless your entire army is doing it, which is unlikely.

Yeah, all 500 of you. But everyone else who's moved on isn't interested in more complexity where it doesn't need to exist.

Aha, you're a funny guy. Do you actually have a point or are you just being a prat?

 Gert wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

Yeah, all 500 of you. But everyone else who's moved on isn't interested in more complexity where it doesn't need to exist.

Aha, you're a funny guy. Do you actually have a point or are you just being a prat?

He's just trolling you guys and you're all falling for it.

Platuan4th wrote:

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

Up, I can go into probably a dozen or more stores around me(not game stores). I only have 3 stores locally to buy 40k & zero to buy 30k.
, so it's got that going for it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

So dead in fact that they keep selling out of and having to reprint the starter boxes and have been unable to keep up with demand.

 Platuan4th wrote:

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

Which ones? I've never seen a Battletech item on a store shelf anywhere.

Toofast wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

Which ones? I've never seen a Battletech item on a store shelf anywhere.

I mean Walmart has it listed on their website.


On topic, Im curious to see what happens with nu30K but I dont want it to be too watered down. I wanted an 8e version early on in 8, but these days, no thanks and luckily its not looking too much like that. But still I dont know how much of what we've seen in rumors I actually want.

Am I understanding this correctly? They're updating the rules, so that it is no longer compatible with the existing HH books, but it still won't be compatible with the current 40K either? (Or any past edition of 40K for that matter.)

That really sounds like the worst of both world type of a situation...

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

I mean Walmart has it listed on their website.

Slightly off-topic, but that means nothing. Wal-Mart, Target, etc have started effectively having their own "marketplace".


On-topic:
I would love 30k to get "maingamed". Especially if it meant Solar Auxilia in plastic or finally getting rules for my gorgeous Thanatar in 40k.

The thing with the 30k Cybernetica is that they were dangerously close to A.I.
They were destroyed and replaced with the Kastelan robots the Mechanicus uses because the Mechanicum machines were far too independent of human control and were a threat. The newer Kastelan machines were specifically designed to only operate when a doctrine wafer is implanted, they cannot perform even basic functions without one and as such always require a Techpriest controller.

I don't like to tell people they shouldn't be allowed to use X model in 40k but for so much HH stuff it really shouldn't be a thing or if it has to be then there should be restrictions and requirements like there was in 6th/7th. If you wanted to take units like Contemptors or Deimos Predators, then you either got one Relic unit or you had to take a Techmarine/Chapter Master/Warpsmith. These things are supposed to be incredibly rare and valuable but because of the poor state of the rules we saw things like Leviathan spam and Contemptor Volkite spam. Plus it just ruins the units IMO. These things don't maintain the status of prized relics maintained carefully for generations when every Chapter and Warband can just chuck as many as they want into every battle they fight. HH loses a little bit of what makes it special every time GW ports another Legion unit into 40k.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

I mean Walmart has it listed on their website.

Slightly off-topic, but that means nothing. Wal-Mart, Target, etc have started effectively having their own "marketplace".


On-topic:
I would love 30k to get "maingamed". Especially if it meant Solar Auxilia in plastic or finally getting rules for my gorgeous Thanatar in 40k.

I hadn't realized that about them, I typically avoid them.

Toofast wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

JSG wrote:
That'd be why Battletech is dead then, regardless of the copium being huffed in this thread.

Yep, so dead it's sold in major retail stores.

Which ones? I've never seen a Battletech item on a store shelf anywhere.

Walk into basically any Barnes and Noble, for one. They even have their own exclusive Force Pack and are getting in the new retail SSalvage boxes.

 Gert wrote:
The thing with the 30k Cybernetica is that they were dangerously close to A.I.
They were destroyed and replaced with the Kastelan robots the Mechanicus uses because the Mechanicum machines were far too independent of human control and were a threat. The newer Kastelan machines were specifically designed to only operate when a doctrine wafer is implanted, they cannot perform even basic functions without one and as such always require a Techpriest controller.

Nearly all of this is factually incorrect...

I even double checked a copy of the 9e Mechanicus 'dex and it specifically states that the Kastelan pattern is as old as the founding of the Mechanicum, with many Forge Worlds claiming to have some from before even then. I've also never seen any book stating that the 30k Cybernetica intentionally destroyed any of their robots, especially considering that every 30k robot would have been subject to the Crimson Accords of Mars which dictated the acceptable limits of independence for any automata. It's also never stated that only Kastelans received the doctrina wafer system, only that the Legio Cybernetica implemented the system following the Heresy and that the reputation of the common 30k robots was relatively tainted by their association with the Dark Mechanicus. Additionally, the codex explicitly states that the methods of creating Kastelans is nearly lost and forge worlds will go to extreme expense just to recover fallen units from battle.

So yeah, there's no reason that 40k forge worlds couldn't field other Imperial robots which are seemingly equally as rare as Kastelans. Try double checking your information before posting

Those legio Cybernetica units are something I've always lusted after. Now with the new HH box coming up, I can finally include some in my BA army, if only for using in HH. Don't really mind, since HH will eventually be my only option when GW finally legends Firstborn from 40K.

IIRC the Cybernetica robots had more 'organic' brains than the Kastelan - and the HH novella Cybernetica has Kastelans in it.

Where is this explained with the Mechanicus robots because in the War of the Beast (M32) they're still around. And there was an announcement of FW to port them to 40K, the book just never went to print.

Custodes got even better! The only thing that could reliably kill them was either plasma or ap2 at initiative
I'm salty about psychic phase. I liked the old one. Don't like the garbage Sigmar/40k has.
I also don't like all the potential loaouts to Predator. Waaaay too many options that are leading to a mess 9th is.

The writing's on the wall since KT21 Compendium hit the shelves — Custodes are the new Space Marines

 CragHack wrote:

I'm salty about psychic phase. I liked the old one. Don't like the garbage Sigmar/40k has.

umm page 67 rumours say no psychic phase and instead powers activated on relevant phase...which is direct opposite of sigmar/40k. Biggest difference between the two being does the psychic/magic happen before or after movement.

It appears that heresy play-test leaks are slowly trickling in on 4chan...

From B&C

Glad they ported over 8th edition's "To Wound" chart for WS comparisons. Although, it might be easier to read/memorize if they formatted it like 8th/9th ed instead of a table.

edit: I now see that the text describes it. Why even add the table lol

Horus no longer weakens his Brothers in Duels and Russ doesnt make them less accurate in fights.

Rihgu wrote:
Glad they ported over 8th edition's "To Wound" chart for WS comparisons. Although, it might be easier to read/memorize if they formatted it like 8th/9th ed instead of a table.

edit: I now see that the text describes it. Why even add the table lol

Different people pick up information differently. For some the visual table is more easily understood, for others the math.
If they don't have it memorized, the table is going to be easier for a specific comparison they need in the moment.

Part of the criticism of 8th/9th was in fact about dropping the tables. Having both table and explanation was rather a staple from 1st-7th.