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Yeah, was never the biggest fan of hull points, there never felt like there were enough of them...
That's my one big issue with hull points. They could have been a great consolation prize for people like me who can't roll well on the damage table to save their life, but instead of being an inefficient way of removing a vehicle through brute force eventually, they became the opposite and made vehicles far too susceptible to damage from the ever increasing number of multi-shot mid-strength weapons that were added with every edition. Hull points could have been a far better thing than we got.
All what they really had to do was make hull points essentially ablative wounds, I.E. when you roll a vehicle destroyed result you lose a hull point instead, means you won't ever one-shot a vehicle and they will take a bit more fire before they become vulnerable. I also never entirely cared for the implementation of shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed/immobilized - I think a bracketing system like we currently have would have worked better, but instead of it being based on wounds taken it would be based on results rolled. I.E. whereas before the table went 1 - shaken, 2 - stunned, 3 - weapon destroyed, 4 - immobilized, 5 - destroyed, 6 - explodes, it could go more like 1-2: -1 impact, 3-4: -2 impact, 5-6: destroyed (or hull point), and then you just add up the cumulative impacts of damage done each round to find which profile you're using (i.e. using the typical 3 bracket setup of vehicles in 9th, 1-5 impacts might just be -1 BS, whereas 6-10 impacts might be -1BS and -5" move, and 11+ impacts -2 BS, -1WS, and 0" move for the turn - and then each round it resets back to zero. It would stop us from having to deal with tanks basically being rendered useless every turn from players shooting it with low grade weaponry just to score a couple shaken/stunned results, etc. And that could, of course, vary by model.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Slightly off-topic, but that means nothing. Wal-Mart, Target, etc have started effectively having their own "marketplace".
I've bought the starter box in FNAC Callao, right in the middle of the busiest shopping street in all Madrid (they did the Horizon: Forbidden West Promotion with the mecha dinosaur statue right there). It sold out fast, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 20:01:29
2022/03/03 20:16:15
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
godardc wrote: Just reading reactions... What a disaster. Especially for small games. You have a 500pts assault oriented army ? You want to charge this support unit with heavy weapon with your elite unit that costs half your point ? Well, better play Iron Warrior and shoot them because if you charge them with palatine blades, they are going to shoot you before you hit them ! And be left with no army.
Awful rule. It makes good units even better by allowing them to act even when attacked by range or assault.
Let's see the full rulebook but there isn't a single change that looks good so far. If it ain't broken, don't fix it !
Any news on the big black books by the way ?
You're oversimplifying things. The idea is to use pinning against a unit you want unable to react.
Once you mix the pinning mechanic into the reactions, a lot of interesting things happens, opening up new levels of tactical depth.
Another thing to keep in mind that your army equally benefits from reactions during your opponents turn. Someone ends up within 12" in order to bring their meltas etc into range? Counter advance them and you are pretty much guaranteed a charge next turn.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/03 20:20:34
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2022/03/03 20:36:48
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Right and unless there is an extreme change in what Pinning is, can you tell me how many weapons have that specific ability? If the Pinning mechanic is changed I can see it being useful but if it stays as is (i.e. a weapon rule) then its not exactly a hard counter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 20:38:15
2022/03/03 05:20:21
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Gert wrote: Right and unless there is an extreme change in what Pinning is, can you tell me how many weapons have that specific ability? If the Pinning mechanic is changed I can see it being useful but if it stays as is (i.e. a weapon rule) then its not exactly a hard counter.
Its usually on snipers, think some artillery and kakophoni for emperors children
If anything I expect emperors children to do well into it, noise marines to turn off reactions then follow up with precise charge from palatine blades and I wouldnt be surprised if EC in general get access to extra uses because of their gimick of "countering" strategies
to me it makes sense for a melee heavy army to advance under some initial bombardment that limits the enemy, its what half the melee assaults in HH go like
edit- I could actually see that being used to differentiate the melee armies, World eaters using heavy siege tanks and/or quad mortars then troops go in while blood angels use jetpack and air assaults to limit reactions to them. Alot will depend on if pinning is more common, though it will increase the stocks of marine sniper squads which have always kind of sucked in 30k outside of certain factions.
for other legions I expect something that mirrors their 40k stuff as space wolves unique one is a nod to their heroic intervention
Alpha legion- mess with reactions
Night lords- Vox scream from 40k to turn off them in an area
raven guard- fire and fade
iron hands- maybe bonus repair
iron warriors- just get imperial fist one
world eaters- probably dont get access to most of them, maybe the "makes opponent count as having disordered charge" one becomes "that + you count as having charged"
ultramarines- get to use everyones as gman liked to pinch ideas that worked.
I like the reactions as the closes we will get to alternate activations just aslong as dont go too far, have just the core, 1 for each legion and very rarely one for rights of war. Also its possible smaller point games like 500 pts will have limited reactions, zone mortalis could limit it to 1 reaction per turn
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/03 21:01:58
2022/03/03 22:42:01
Subject: Re:Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Not sure what to make of this, but this list has been just popped up on a Discord. Apply massive doses of salt:
- Multiple units deploying with a single reserve roll
- There's a bunch of different subtypes of Monstrous Creatures now. Dreadnoughts, Daemons and Automata
- Automata can't do reactions and are slow
- Dreadnoughts have Wargear that makes them immune to instant death but vulnerable to melta and haywire.
- Weapon Strength is capped at 20
- Landspeeders are now treated like bikes with a toughness value
- Rhinos and Landraiders increase transport capacity by 2
- Twinlinked is gone - replaced with 8th ed inspired rule for more shots
- Lascannons have sunder rule
- Almost all vehicles are in squadrons
- Plastic thallax, predators, landraiders, are hinted at
2022/03/03 22:45:03
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
I can believe the plastic Thallax, especially given the recent bump in unit sizes on Skitarii. They've gone from being a relatively "elite" unit to more of a "horde-y" unit.
Fingers crossed, still, for some love in 40k proper!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 22:49:29
2022/03/03 22:48:35
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Why would Legions get special "reactions" if they already have Legion traits though? At that point, they are the same as Stratagems which is something I want HH to avoid like the plague.
Honestly, a lot of this just seems like change for the sake of change.
The only thing I wouldn't mind is a slight change to the Psychic system where it's back to a set number of powers and a Ld check to cast the power while keeping the current system of multiple disciplines.
2022/03/04 00:38:55
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Gert wrote: Why would Legions get special "reactions" if they already have Legion traits though? At that point, they are the same as Stratagems which is something I want HH to avoid like the plague.
Honestly, a lot of this just seems like change for the sake of change.
The only thing I wouldn't mind is a slight change to the Psychic system where it's back to a set number of powers and a Ld check to cast the power while keeping the current system of multiple disciplines.
Agreed, far too much of it for the sake of it too.
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2022/03/04 01:56:37
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
I'm excited at the prospect of plastic 30k era predators. I also love the theme of 30k in taking vehicles in squadrons. Probably my favorite thing about Imperial Guard.
2022/03/04 08:05:39
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Plastic HH vehicles would be icing on the cake for any Rogue Trader -era Marines collector. I could see the kits selling well to 40K players as well. Which actually makes that rumour kinda plausible.
EDIT: Wait, plastic Thallax automata?! Oh my, that'd be a treat! Salivating at the thought
Also like that rumour about dreads being vulnerable to melta & haywire.. Although the same should also apply to other robotic units like automata etc
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/04 08:12:34
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2022/03/04 09:15:41
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Gert wrote: Why would Legions get special "reactions" if they already have Legion traits though? At that point, they are the same as Stratagems which is something I want HH to avoid like the plague.
Absolutely agreed. Stratagems, particularly now that they are using them as "card to use equipment you used to have" are absolutely awful.
2022/03/04 09:43:19
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
godardc wrote: Just reading reactions... What a disaster. Especially for small games. You have a 500pts assault oriented army ? You want to charge this support unit with heavy weapon with your elite unit that costs half your point ? Well, better play Iron Warrior and shoot them because if you charge them with palatine blades, they are going to shoot you before you hit them ! And be left with no army.
Awful rule. It makes good units even better by allowing them to act even when attacked by range or assault.
Let's see the full rulebook but there isn't a single change that looks good so far. If it ain't broken, don't fix it !
Any news on the big black books by the way ?
You're oversimplifying things. The idea is to use pinning against a unit you want unable to react.
Once you mix the pinning mechanic into the reactions, a lot of interesting things happens, opening up new levels of tactical depth.
Another thing to keep in mind that your army equally benefits from reactions during your opponents turn. Someone ends up within 12" in order to bring their meltas etc into range? Counter advance them and you are pretty much guaranteed a charge next turn.
And besides...He complains game getting broken at 500 pts? Well duh. Game isn't designed to work well at 500. Games have sweet spot games works(at least GW games). In 30 odd years GW has yet to create game that works at every scale. FB every edition, 40k every edition, lotr, epic, BFG, AT they all have range of points they work well and less or more than that it breaks balance. Reactions or not 500 pts would be bad game size to play anyway. And 5000 pts is also going to break things as game just doesn't scale up to that anyway.
Use the game for points it's supposed to be played and then complain if it doesn't work. If you play too small or too big prepare to house rule tons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 09:45:20
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2022/03/04 14:01:49
Subject: Re:Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
More grist for the mill. Thanks to Petitioner's City over on B&C - looks like my discord swipe was swiped from the 4chan list below:
So does anyone else want to try to summarize the things from the discord chat so far? teehee.gif here is some of it, but i can't find everything.
Source 1
- suggests Mournival were playtesters
- suggests transport capacity has gone up across the board, but didn't have access to Militia/Talons/etc rules, just Legions (and seemingly just the special legion rules)
- Salamanders will love their flamestorm cannon predators as troops squadrons [not sure if this is a Sally rite of war or Armoured Breakthrough]
- "the rites of war that were posted in bolter and chainsword are correct"
- Apparrently Imp Fist Tartaros can't take Storm Shields, but not sure.
- "Flamers are more powerful across the board"
- Sehkmet are only Cataphractii now
- "Days of sorrow got buffed" and "blades of perdition" are good
Source 2
- "Like taking a power fist was nearly always better then power axe as hitting last if you get me. Now both are good. And in different armies. Can be powerful. Also tactical sgts cannot have artificial armour."
On 4chan the following was posted:
"From a guy with the book:
>You can combine multiple units deploying the same way into a single reserve roll, like deep strikers. So if you declare a deep strike assault you can, for example, drop 3 units of assault marines on the same area, and then assault with themIt's risky, as interceptor is a thing and cognis signums let you interceptor without spending a point on reactions - then overwatch at full
>Outflank works like in AT >There's a bunch of different subtypes of MC. Dreads, Daemonic MC, and so on are in with different rules.
>Cybernetica had another major nerf they can't do reactions and move extra slow
>Dreads have Wargear that makes them immune to instant death, take D3 wounds instead and are vulnerable to melta and haywire.
>S is capped at 20, but over ten is just for instant death purposes. Dreads can take chainfist to get to S8, leviathan S12, Landspeeders are just a T6 jetbike now with four wounds
>Oh, and rhinos, landraiders... 2 more capacity, so putting heroes in units is easy
>TL gone in favor of more shots [I find this doubtful since we have seen twin-linked and gravis side-by-side in the pred entry, or am i wrong?]
>Lascannons have sunder
>Almost all vehicles are in squadrons, including the arcus, and most went up in points, all have sponsons if available by default, typhons can squad.
>No more psychic phase. It's a LD test now. Hoods reduce psyker leadership in a radius, and force weapons double the strength of the wielder before weapon bonuses. A psyker knows all 2-3 powers in their school. There are 8 schools.
>Almost all vehicles are in squadrons, including the arcus, and most went up in points, all have sponsons if available by default which kinda sucks for smaller games.
>Marine side, rites of war are simpler, pride of the legion is restrictive, there's an all dread rite. All [hit] hard. And predator tanks with any sponson or turret can be troops in armored breakthrough which was combined with spearhead."
2022/03/04 16:17:23
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
- Apparrently Imp Fist Tartaros can't take Storm Shields, but not sure. (Exceptionally dumb.)
- Sehkmet are only Cataphractii now (Dumb.)
- Also tactical sgts cannot have artificial armour. (Was just a fun little upgrade.)
- You can combine multiple units deploying the same way into a single reserve roll, like deep strikers. So if you declare a deep strike assault you can, for example, drop 3 units of assault marines on the same area, and then assault with themIt's risky, as interceptor is a thing and cognis signums let you interceptor without spending a point on reactions - then overwatch at full (I don't like staggered deployments TBH.)
- Dreads have Wargear that makes them immune to instant death, take D3 wounds instead and are vulnerable to melta and haywire. (Leviathans and Deredeo's will be nigh unkillable.)
- No more psychic phase. It's a LD test now. Hoods reduce psyker leadership in a radius, and force weapons double the strength of the wielder before weapon bonuses. A psyker knows all 2-3 powers in their school. There are 8 schools. (Mostly because Psychic Hoods aren't supposed to be a thing in HH.)
- Almost all vehicles are in squadrons, including the arcus, and most went up in points, all have sponsons if available by default which kinda sucks for smaller games. (Mandatory sponsons is dumb.)
- Marine side, rites of war are simpler, pride of the legion is restrictive, there's an all dread rite. All [hit] hard. And predator tanks with any sponson or turret can be troops in armored breakthrough which was combined with spearhead. (Not sure what needs simplified in RoW, gives me fear.)
But also just in general it feels like there are changes being made just for the sake of being different. The Crusade and HeresyFB page mod actually banned the posting of the rumours because it was starting too many arguments and getting too many people down. It's like a car crash, you don't want to look but you have to see.
The thing is it's not like a WHFB situation where the game was badly managed or a 40k situation where things get changed to keep people interested. All HH needed was a box like Calth and a rules patch rather than a rework. The minimal amount of support to keep it going.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 17:38:27
2022/03/04 17:40:59
Subject: Re:Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
Ah yes, the old "make this relatively new and expensive model illegal" approach.
Was it ever actually clarified that IF tartaros could take storm shields? It's not in the FAQ.
Any Legion Terminator or Terminator Character, from the Red Books I believe. Also you know the Imperial Fist Praetor in Terminator Armor is in Tartaros and using the shield.
Spoiler:
Edit: Though the FW page does now seem to call it Cataphractii Armor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/04 17:47:26
2022/03/04 17:51:47
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
- Apparrently Imp Fist Tartaros can't take Storm Shields, but not sure. (Exceptionally dumb.)
- Sehkmet are only Cataphractii now (Dumb.)
- Also tactical sgts cannot have artificial armour. (Was just a fun little upgrade.)
- You can combine multiple units deploying the same way into a single reserve roll, like deep strikers. So if you declare a deep strike assault you can, for example, drop 3 units of assault marines on the same area, and then assault with themIt's risky, as interceptor is a thing and cognis signums let you interceptor without spending a point on reactions - then overwatch at full (I don't like staggered deployments TBH.)
- Dreads have Wargear that makes them immune to instant death, take D3 wounds instead and are vulnerable to melta and haywire. (Leviathans and Deredeo's will be nigh unkillable.)
- No more psychic phase. It's a LD test now. Hoods reduce psyker leadership in a radius, and force weapons double the strength of the wielder before weapon bonuses. A psyker knows all 2-3 powers in their school. There are 8 schools. (Mostly because Psychic Hoods aren't supposed to be a thing in HH.)
- Almost all vehicles are in squadrons, including the arcus, and most went up in points, all have sponsons if available by default which kinda sucks for smaller games. (Mandatory sponsons is dumb.)
- Marine side, rites of war are simpler, pride of the legion is restrictive, there's an all dread rite. All [hit] hard. And predator tanks with any sponson or turret can be troops in armored breakthrough which was combined with spearhead. (Not sure what needs simplified in RoW, gives me fear.)
But also just in general it feels like there are changes being made just for the sake of being different. The Crusade and HeresyFB page mod actually banned the posting of the rumours because it was starting too many arguments and getting too many people down. It's like a car crash, you don't want to look but you have to see.
The thing is it's not like a WHFB situation where the game was badly managed or a 40k situation where things get changed to keep people interested. All HH needed was a box like Calth and a rules patch rather than a rework. The minimal amount of support to keep it going.
You are smooshing different sources here, and honestly the 4chan ones felt a bit funny. I think it's worth remembering the salt
Also the storm shield thing isn't clear, it was a quick glance by that person with the book - always remember one is an unreliable narrator, esp if one doesn't play that legion.
2022/03/04 18:46:56
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
I don't trust the rumours, never have never will. But the fact remains that this could be true and that just sucks IMO.
I don't want to read these rumours but at the same time want to know what is possibly happening. So until the rules are out all I have is disappointment and sadness because these rumours do not paint a picture that inspires hope for HHIMO.
2022/03/04 18:59:47
Subject: Re:Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
stonehorse wrote:Glad to see reactions added to the game, will help male the game more dynamic and interesting.
Yeah, I'm surprised to see people lumping it under 'change for the sake of change', since a free-form reaction system is a significant departure from GW's traditional I'll-make-a-sandwich-while-you-take-your-turn IGOUGO and will definitely impact the dynamics of the game. Other games with similar mechanics haven't been dominated by doomstacks so I'd be surprised if that's a major problem here. A reaction system is also a great opportunity for GW to differentiate high-tempo forces from slower and less reactive ones, like Automata apparently not getting reactions at all.
Much of the rest of what I see seems like streamlining or logical iteration. Codifying damage mitigation as a mechanic is a good change, as is embracing parentheses on USRs rather than making me remember what adjective added to 'Bulky' corresponds to what number of slots it takes up. Having Dreadnoughts and Automata finally work equivalently has been a long time coming. A bit extra transport capacity so you can take a character or two along with a squad in a transport makes sense in a game with lots of 10+ model squads.
I'm curious to see what changes they're making to vehicles and flying MCs, and whether the USRs are getting pared down at all, but so far nothing about the core rules changes seems wildly negative to me.
catbarf wrote: Yeah, I'm surprised to see people lumping it under 'change for the sake of change', since a free-form reaction system is a significant departure from GW's traditional I'll-make-a-sandwich-while-you-take-your-turn IGOUGO and will definitely impact the dynamics of the game. Other games with similar mechanics haven't been dominated by doomstacks so I'd be surprised if that's a major problem here. A reaction system is also a great opportunity for GW to differentiate high-tempo forces from slower and less reactive ones, like Automata apparently not getting reactions at all.
But why should Automata not get reactions? Some like the Thanatar are Initiative 2 but Castellax and Vorax have the same Initiative as Marines. An automata controlled by a Cortex Controller acts like any other unit so why should automata not receive reactions like any other unit?
Having Dreadnoughts and Automata finally work equivalently has been a long time coming.
Yes, Leviathans very much needed that extra boost to push them from unbearable to "sent from hell". Dreadnoughts of all classes are fine in the current ruleset, I don't see why they need to get tougher when most have good armour and an Invuln save to boot.
2022/03/04 22:13:00
Subject: Heresy/30k - News & Rumours - All Heresy 2.0 rules leak in OP - Reactions Rules Pg72
They don't think for themselves. Them not having reactions is entirely thematic. Hell, you could introduce rules that allow them to gain reactions (like a 'Sentry Mode') but they have to give something up in return, showing the limitations of not-quite-AI.
And Dreadnoughts as T/W vs AV is a great step. One of the first changes we made to the rules when we got sick of 40k and did our own version of (at the time) 4th Ed rules.
Gert wrote: But why should Automata not get reactions? Some like the Thanatar are Initiative 2 but Castellax and Vorax have the same Initiative as Marines. An automata controlled by a Cortex Controller acts like any other unit so why should automata not receive reactions like any other unit?
Like HBMC said, the whole idea of the automata is that they're relatively dim-witted and slow-to-react robots; that's why the Mechanicum is keen to produce cyborgs like Thallax that can act with a greater degree of autonomy.
Lack of reactions is a suitable way to model the idea of the holder of the Cortex Controller sending them orders, rather than them being able to organically react of their own initiative.
Gert wrote: Yes, Leviathans very much needed that extra boost to push them from unbearable to "sent from hell". Dreadnoughts of all classes are fine in the current ruleset, I don't see why they need to get tougher when most have good armour and an Invuln save to boot.
If we assume that nothing about their performance or cost will be changed to offset any potential gain from this rules shift, despite this being a completely new edition of the game, then yes they could become very oppressive.
We don't even know if the switch to monstrous creature stats will actually make them tougher. They could get worse depending on how their stats are set. Making assumptions at this stage is kind of silly.
