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drbored wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
It would have been more surprising to me if GW had taken over HH from FW but left the rules as is to keep the niche-within-a-niche 30K community happy.

This is the price of getting new plastics, etc. GW will want to grow that market, not just sell the new kits to the existing small community. And whether you agree with it or not, there are a lot of potential players/customers who feel that the v7-based HH ruleset is stale.

Hell, even if no one felt that way, we all know that rules churn is how GW sparks interest in new editions of 40K.

This is very true. Many players stopped playing around the 7th edition time. Source? How many people came back for 8th or even 9th that hadn't played in 3+ years. 8th was a huge launch, both because of how many new people it brought in and how many returning people came in.

Advertising 30k as more of 7th isn't going to inspire a lot of people to try the game out. It'll make people that loved 6th and 7th happy, but that's a small and shrinking group of people.

Yep, and there's a ever-growing group of players who never dealt with 3rd-7th edition concepts. It's been almost 5 years since 8th edition launched. It makes sense that they'd want to tweak some aspects to make the game look more familiar.

Remember that successful 30k means more long-term support for the game. More plastics, more characters, more upgrades, more modeling and collecting opportunities.

At least they're not treating it like Age of Sigmar where they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They're clearly keeping some of the fundamentals of 7th edition to keep the game feeling different enough from 40k.

They are, and honestly...I may give this a shot. Hell, I have a 30K WE army just sitting around boxed up anyway. Bringing in some 8th edition concepts and making some additional unique changes might be up my alley.

I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

He's not wrong though, and it's easy to dismiss anyone who isn't fawning over new stuff. Wanting a new starter and a more affordable inroad into the game and splitting it in two for no real gain seems quite likely. Popular HH models ported to 40k seems like what people want, any who wouldn't want more plastic?

There will always be a chunk of players that don't want to see change.

I am thankful they didn't fully abandon the existing rule base. I already went through GW killing WFB, that was enough.

Realistically, between the players who are happy for some change and then the larger audience likely jumping into the game if GW makes it more accessible, I assume the community will be fine.

There's something to be said for a smaller community who's values are more aligned.
One size fits all often means fits no one.

That doesn't mean to say I think the new rules will be that, I genuinely haven't seen enough to suggest one way or another.
It certainly looks like the worst of 8th isn't coming to HH, although there's a lot of shadows for that to be hiding in still.
So I can't be sure.

What were the worst aspects of 8th?

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
There will always be a chunk of players that don't want to see change.

There is also always a chunk of players that do want change, but not the changes made.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
What were the worst aspects of 8th?

Strategems, vehicles being spongey fat infantrymen, and special rules galore mostly.
It does concern me that both the two recent Black Library Characters have special rules galore going on, I'm hoping that's just because they're fancy special characters as opposed to the new normal.
We know Dreadnoughts are joining in the "spongey fat infantrymen" thing, but we know that's just Dreadnoughts and hopefully it's not too bad.

TBF, HH characters still have plenty of special and unique rules, it's not uncommon.

I know I'm usually one of the most cynical around here, but I think them not outright just porting HH into 9th with all but name is probably a good sign that they're not in a hurry to merge the two. GW has shown with things like killing Fantasy they're not against ripping the bandaid off, even if blood was still gushing out of the wound.

I don't think Reactions are too indicative of Stratagems. It would've been easy for them to all but include Stratagems and handwave them away as "just being fluffy additions" with things like "Orbital Bombardment" and "Teleporter Assault" and later giving into just bloating the game with them, but Reactions largely seem to be a separate category of their own. Even in 8th Strats weren't really seen as too negative an addition until they leaned hard into the "GOTCHA!" bloat, where it was more about stacking rerolls and +1 Toughness. The Death Guard codex suffered largely because it was so limited compared to later codexes with regards to Strats but also had some of the fluffier, less 'arcadey' ones.

I do share kirotheavenger's worry that more things going MC is going to result in Spongey Fat Infantrymen. I'd rather they turned most of the non-Daemon MCs into vehicles rather than go the other way around, especially when it's not like Dreadnoughts were bad or anything.

It's hard to take OC too seriously when he's going to buy everything FW churn out anyway.

I was one of the people saying I enjoyed strategems at the start of 8th
A cheeky reroll a dice here or there was a nice way to mitigate the swingyness of some rolls, but was nothing major.

Then the codexes started coming out...

I don't think Reactions are going to be like that, but since we've had the core Reaction rules leaked there are some clear problems.
- They don't scale well with game size. At say 1000pts your 1-3 Reactions are going to cover an unit you might want to whenever they might want to. But at 3000pts there's going to be some hard decisions to make. Clearly they balanced them around 3k, but you can't dismiss smaller games like that.

- They seem to make melee really quite difficult to pull off. If you try to approach someone they can just run away. If you try to charge someone they can just blast you at full lethality for free. If you try and charge Space Wolves or Imperial Fists, psyc, they charge you first!

I would have liked to see Reactions being uncapped, but anyone doing them lost their next turn. At the very least they wouldn't be "more stuff" it'd just be "stuff earlier".

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
There will always be a chunk of players that don't want to see change.

I am thankful they didn't fully abandon the existing rule base. I already went through GW killing WFB, that was enough.

Realistically, between the players who are happy for some change and then the larger audience likely jumping into the game if GW makes it more accessible, I assume the community will be fine.

I guess for a lot of people who saw their game nuked from orbit with WHFB, there will always be a sense of nervousness around any new release now or significant rules update. Always a short step away from a new rule that if players wear a laurel while playing (for Ultramarine players) or have a tankard of ale on the tabletop (for Space Wolves), that allows your units to make armour saves.

I can totally forgive the amount of nervousness on forums and in social media groups. It's a shame, because should just be really excited about the prospect of new plastic minis and new players coming into the community as a result of the new release.

kirotheavenger wrote:I don't think Reactions are going to be like that, but since we've had the core Reaction rules leaked there are some clear problems.
- They don't scale well with game size. At say 1000pts your 1-3 Reactions are going to cover an unit you might want to whenever they might want to. But at 3000pts there's going to be some hard decisions to make. Clearly they balanced them around 3k, but you can't dismiss smaller games like that.

- They seem to make melee really quite difficult to pull off. If you try to approach someone they can just run away. If you try to charge someone they can just blast you at full lethality for free. If you try and charge Space Wolves or Imperial Fists, psyc, they charge you first!

I would have liked to see Reactions being uncapped, but anyone doing them lost their next turn. At the very least they wouldn't be "more stuff" it'd just be "stuff earlier".

I'm very interested to see how it's implemented, because those are two legitimate issues, but ones that can be addressed a variety of ways.

From the wording on the reaction system, I expect characters or army archetypes to grant additional reactions in certain phases, so I expect there to be some scaling to the number of reactions an army can perform.

And for melee, as far as I'm concerned that will really be the litmus test for how much design effort and testing they've actually put into the game. Because you're right, a reaction system inherently makes melee a riskier proposition, just like overwatch. Games with reaction mechanics need to be designed to take it into account; it's not something you can layer onto a previously flat IGOUGO ruleset and expect everything to work out.

I also agree with 'do stuff earlier' as a general mechanic- it's an elegant way to get around certain timing issues, and helps provide a sense of 'momentum' where one player can find themselves getting pushed into just reacting to what's happening rather than taking initiative.

Pacific wrote:I guess for a lot of people who saw their game nuked from orbit with WHFB, there will always be a sense of nervousness around any new release now or significant rules update. Always a short step away from a new rule that if players wear a laurel while playing (for Ultramarine players) or have a tankard of ale on the tabletop (for Space Wolves), that allows your units to make armour saves.

I can totally forgive the amount of nervousness on forums and in social media groups. It's a shame, because should just be really excited about the prospect of new plastic minis and new players coming into the community as a result of the new release.

In my area at least, HH is the refuge for people who were dissatisfied with the direction 40K started to go in 8th, so I can completely understand the resistance against a modernized ruleset. That said, it also means that finding like-minded people who don't like the new rules and want to play with the old ones probably won't be too hard if that's what it comes down to.

I know I'm usually one of the most cynical around here, but I think them not outright just porting HH into 9th with all but name is probably a good sign that they're not in a hurry to merge the two.

Going to be honest, I wouldn't be too sad if they decided to take 10th in the direction of these rules and merged them that way.

The main thing that detracts from HH is its marines (and a few friends) pretty much all the time, and the rest of the setting is abandoned. So giving up strats for reactions and whatnot for mainline 40k? I'd be into it.

Voss wrote:

I know I'm usually one of the most cynical around here, but I think them not outright just porting HH into 9th with all but name is probably a good sign that they're not in a hurry to merge the two.

Going to be honest, I wouldn't be too sad if they decided to take 10th in the direction of these rules and merged them that way.

The main thing that detracts from HH is its marines (and a few friends) pretty much all the time, and the rest of the setting is abandoned. So giving up strats for reactions and whatnot for mainline 40k? I'd be into it.

Lol, this again.

You're basically saying that the main thing that detracts from HH is the HH itself. If we wanted to play 40k, we would be playing 40k.

Voss wrote:

I know I'm usually one of the most cynical around here, but I think them not outright just porting HH into 9th with all but name is probably a good sign that they're not in a hurry to merge the two.

Going to be honest, I wouldn't be too sad if they decided to take 10th in the direction of these rules and merged them that way.

The main thing that detracts from HH is its marines (and a few friends) pretty much all the time, and the rest of the setting is abandoned. So giving up strats for reactions and whatnot for mainline 40k? I'd be into it.

At the time of the Hersey it was basically only Marines and Imperial units (guard/mechanicus). The great crusade was basically over with the major xenos races reeling from the battles against the Emperor's Finest. People complaining about not having enough variety of races are wanting to play in the wrong setting. The Hersey is about the Marines and their Primarchs slugging it out with each other and the Mechanicus having it's own civil war and taking sides. Though Alpharius would like you to believe that it's all the fault of some Xenos plot, all the variety is in which flavor of Marine you play. Back then there was even more difference between how the flavors played.

I could see them making a supplement later to use different Xenos in the game and make it a crusade era campaign, but that's not the focus of HH.

Oh cool, we're doing the whole "HH would be better with Xenos" thing again? Must be that time of the month.

HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9. HH's rules are so good that they overcome it's limited setting and actually work as a balancing mechanic, one of the single best aspects is problem units are everyone's problem in most cases when it comes to marines because most factions have access to said units. If you can't beat'm, join'm is basically built right into the game. Being able to balance obnoxiousness at least with the ability to mirror itself is one of the best things about 30k. Not to mention the slight variation in stats from faction to faction means it easier and expected for both sides to know the rules/stats pretty much by heart. The amount of usr's can border in ridiculous when you get into mechanicum ic's but the detail is amazing and modelling opportunies for wargear inspiring. Everything about the direction of 40k went in comparison is a valid reason for concern. It's fair to point out again and again that if the problem was mc's and flying mc's being abstract health bars of wtf, the solution surely wasn't to make other units similar and introduce stupid D3 wounds crap.

What I like about 30k is it's incredibly straight forward to document (battle reports) I can value there being one less phase (psychic) but if that comes at the cost of a bunch of reactions it's one step forward several steps back. One of the nice things about a decidedly longer game was that your opponent or you could grab drinks, have a smoke or use the facilities during their movement phase assuming you had nothing you intended to intercept with and someone was there to witness difficult/dangerous or scatter for deep strike. There's still plenty of interaction in the other phases without the reaction stuff. And as stated, it doesn't scale well. I'd add again it also throws a nail in larger games or games with more players per side.

Right now it feels like "we fixed this for you" more than a convincing tale of "we've genuinely put a lot of thought time and gaming into this.".

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

Voss wrote:

I know I'm usually one of the most cynical around here, but I think them not outright just porting HH into 9th with all but name is probably a good sign that they're not in a hurry to merge the two.

Going to be honest, I wouldn't be too sad if they decided to take 10th in the direction of these rules and merged them that way.

The main thing that detracts from HH is its marines (and a few friends) pretty much all the time, and the rest of the setting is abandoned. So giving up strats for reactions and whatnot for mainline 40k? I'd be into it.

Lol, this again.

You're basically saying that the main thing that detracts from HH is the HH itself. If we wanted to play 40k, we would be playing 40k.

I am, yes. But not in a way that affects you.

I'm saying the best path forward for mainline 40k is swapping over to rules like this over the current direction. HH can stick to its civil war.

After watching a stream by Winters SEO and Liam Dempsey, I'm really wondering what GW's long term plan is for this.

On the one hand, they seem adamant to give everything it's own bespoke ruleset. Warcry rules are very different from AoS. Kill Team is very different from 40k which is very different from Apocalypse, and now 30k is going to be very different from all of those things as well. Aeronautica and Titanicus share a scale, but nothing else, and every single one of these games has specific measuring sticks or tools or special bases or symbols or dice that can't be used for their other games. Across all of their games, only Necromunda, 30k, and Titanicus use the old templates, but aside from that don't share much else in rules.

This can make entering the Warhammer hobby very, very frustrating for new people. If they want to use their models in any of the other games that GW is putting out, they have to buy and learn a whole new ruleset, and many of these games are so bloated with books that that's an incredible investment all on its own.

On the other hand, it does allow people that prefer one ruleset over another to lean more towards that aspect of the hobby. Love the rules for Warcry but hate Kill Team? Well, it's a good thing the two don't share a rule system then. If more of these games shared more rules, it'd be easier to bounce from one game to another, but people would be less inclined to buy all of the extra books that GW is putting out.

The main note that Winters and Liam were pointing at was how GW's share price has dropped by 1/3rd over the past few months. Obviously there's a lot involved in that when you look at world events that could be impacting a physical product business like GW, but there's also the fact that people are eschewing 40k for other game systems.

30k could be huge. I remember during a convention one of the developers said "in 2 years, everyone will be playing 30k". Now, this was 4 years ago, but those were still bold words, implying that 30k would be MUCH easier to get into for many hobbyists and attract a larger crowd.

In order to make 30k accessible, they're already doing a big part of that, by making a ton of things plastic. In fact, IMO, many more things should be plastic, especially now that all of FW's prices went up yet again. 115USD for a set of Contekar Night Lords Terminators... that's just shy of DOUBLE the price for some regular Chaos Terminators. But, plastic marines, tanks, more plastic characters and other things will help the situation greatly.

The next issue then is the rules. Once again, GW will likely ask us to buy 4-5 different books to play the game. A core rulebook, rules for loyalists, rules for traitors, rules for 'everything else' (custodes, knights, auxilia, etc), and then some sort of matched play magazine for points values or something.

Whatever your opinion on the rules changes that are being reported currently is, here's the brass tacks:

If GW wants 30k to be successful, and have 'everyone' playing it, it needs to be a tight ruleset that doesn't take a week of intensive training and meditation in order to get the hang of. The game should not ask you to keep track of 4 different objective points values and should be cutting out a lot of the extra bloat that the 7th edition core rules suffered from. That's what 8th edition 40k did so well: it cut out a lot of the crap and refocused everything down into Indexes that were really quite well balanced, if bland.

If they make 30k somehow more complicated, it's going to be DOA. You'll have plenty of people buying the big box sets, because the savings on plastic 30k models will be great I'm sure, but if the rules are pants, somehow harder to get into, and the books are overpriced, then your long-term growth wont go anywhere and the people that like 30k as is will simply take all those shiny new models and use them in their current game.

I don't think we will be seeing much xenos featured in HH. I might be alone in thinking this, but I've always thought that GW wants to keep Necromunda and Horus Heresy distinctive from 40K by mainly featuring HUMANS. It presents an alternative viewpoint for the 40K world which might appeal more to players who are not into "Alien of the month" type of scifi. It feels grittier, more realistic.

drbored wrote:
After watching a stream by Winters SEO and Liam Dempsey, I'm really wondering what GW's long term plan is for this.

On the one hand, they seem adamant to give everything it's own bespoke ruleset. Warcry rules are very different from AoS. Kill Team is very different from 40k which is very different from Apocalypse, and now 30k is going to be very different from all of those things as well. Aeronautica and Titanicus share a scale, but nothing else, and every single one of these games has specific measuring sticks or tools or special bases or symbols or dice that can't be used for their other games. Across all of their games, only Necromunda, 30k, and Titanicus use the old templates, but aside from that don't share much else in rules.

This can make entering the Warhammer hobby very, very frustrating for new people. If they want to use their models in any of the other games that GW is putting out, they have to buy and learn a whole new ruleset, and many of these games are so bloated with books that that's an incredible investment all on its own.

On the other hand, it does allow people that prefer one ruleset over another to lean more towards that aspect of the hobby. Love the rules for Warcry but hate Kill Team? Well, it's a good thing the two don't share a rule system then. If more of these games shared more rules, it'd be easier to bounce from one game to another, but people would be less inclined to buy all of the extra books that GW is putting out.

The main note that Winters and Liam were pointing at was how GW's share price has dropped by 1/3rd over the past few months. Obviously there's a lot involved in that when you look at world events that could be impacting a physical product business like GW, but there's also the fact that people are eschewing 40k for other game systems.

30k could be huge. I remember during a convention one of the developers said "in 2 years, everyone will be playing 30k". Now, this was 4 years ago, but those were still bold words, implying that 30k would be MUCH easier to get into for many hobbyists and attract a larger crowd.

In order to make 30k accessible, they're already doing a big part of that, by making a ton of things plastic. In fact, IMO, many more things should be plastic, especially now that all of FW's prices went up yet again. 115USD for a set of Contekar Night Lords Terminators... that's just shy of DOUBLE the price for some regular Chaos Terminators. But, plastic marines, tanks, more plastic characters and other things will help the situation greatly.

The next issue then is the rules. Once again, GW will likely ask us to buy 4-5 different books to play the game. A core rulebook, rules for loyalists, rules for traitors, rules for 'everything else' (custodes, knights, auxilia, etc), and then some sort of matched play magazine for points values or something.

Whatever your opinion on the rules changes that are being reported currently is, here's the brass tacks:

If GW wants 30k to be successful, and have 'everyone' playing it, it needs to be a tight ruleset that doesn't take a week of intensive training and meditation in order to get the hang of. The game should not ask you to keep track of 4 different objective points values and should be cutting out a lot of the extra bloat that the 7th edition core rules suffered from. That's what 8th edition 40k did so well: it cut out a lot of the crap and refocused everything down into Indexes that were really quite well balanced, if bland.

If they make 30k somehow more complicated, it's going to be DOA. You'll have plenty of people buying the big box sets, because the savings on plastic 30k models will be great I'm sure, but if the rules are pants, somehow harder to get into, and the books are overpriced, then your long-term growth wont go anywhere and the people that like 30k as is will simply take all those shiny new models and use them in their current game.

Maybe it's me but, as much as I can appreciate all the diverse offerings in terms of games gw now makes, the amount of time I can realistically put aside has never increased accordingly. I think I'd rather people were more realistic with their free time and what they choose to invest it into game-wise. I'd rather be all in on one or two gw games than pretend to balance attention span/modelling and gaming time for a handful of games. But in terms of investment, I've seen dudes lug plastic cases full with HH books and something about that always seemed to underline investment and time well spent. Players who could only focus on playing during their holidays or the odd weekend could show up with a painted army and have very little to have to catch up on, really not so for 40k. 30k and AT aren't perfect but there's much less turmoil and churn.

30k has a pretty tight ruleset IMO, it maybe just needs love on the matched play and terrain rules side of things. But that didn't necessarily need to come from GW. Everyone wants plastics, if they make an army somewhat an affordable prospect and not just make in a fomo fest in terms of sales but make it clear they're actually going to support the starter, I don't think it really matters what people are playing with the plastics of they sell well and continue to do so. You know what helped get people into the game long before 8th? Assault on black reach. The only silver lining here is the new plastics, everything else just seems like why bother.

New pile of "leaks":

New "disintegrator" rifles, pistols, and combi-weapons mostly available to centurions and seeker sgts
Rotor cannons are Assault now with Pinning and Shell Shock (1), apparently causing -1Ld to the subsequent Pinning check
Nemesis Bolter, 72" Heavy 1, Sniper, maybe replacing sniper rifles for Legions
Thunder hammers are now Sunder instead of concussive (HELL yeah)
Dark Angels Warlord trait previously leaked as allowing to select bonuses against certain factions lists "Dark Mechanicum" as one faction
Salamanders no also have -1S to incoming plasma, melta, and volkite. -1" charge/run/sweep is gone, Morale bonus now attached to a legion specific Warlord Trait
Raven Guard split into Hawks/Talons/Falcons that confer different bonuses to different unit types
Iron Hands -1S to incoming shooting now applies to all non-vehicle units (including new MC dreadnoughts), all vehicles get 6+ It Will Not Die and Autosimulacra can increase that to 5+
Iron Hands specific reaction to overwatch at full BS twice with Gets Hot!
Iron Father's get a machinator array instead of a servo arm, have Battle Smith (3+)
Toxiferran flamers are now just Poison and Rending instead of Tainted
Flamestorm cannons are no longer AP3 but have Torrent
Volkite Calivers are Heavy 3
The Kratos is a new heavy tank that has a turret battle cannon/melta cannon/volkite turret with 4 weapons across the turret and sponsons, mostly autocannons, heavy bolters, and volkite culverins
All terminators now have two wounds!
Cataphractii and Tartaros are split into different unit profiles
Primarchs and Fortifications have their own Force Org slot
Primarchs can be taken 1 per primary detachment but count towards LoW points
Allied detachments are larger
Destroyer squads split into "Assault" and "Mortis" units
Despoiler squads return and Scout Squads added to tactical and Recon Squads as troops choices
Termites are now universal DT's like rhinos for most things (oh boy)
Most vehicles are now squadrons, including Deredeo talons, Sikarans, Whirlwinds (including Scorpius), all Sicaran variants, predators (in up to 5), Cerberus, and Typhons
Proteus Land Raider has been split into "Carrier" and "Exploratory" variants (presumably just making a different unit entry for the explorator web upgrade)
Space Wolves are getting a "Grey Hunter" unit
All weapons have been rebalanced to be viable (lets see how that goes)
Weapon S can go above 10, but is capped at S10 for wounding but "true" value is used for armor pen and ID
Twinlinked is more or less being replaced with Gravis ala 40k (double shots)
Autocannons and variants now have Rending
Astartes Shotguns have concussive
Demo cannons are AP3 but have rules to increase them above S10 for ID and armor pen
Heavy Bolters are now Heavy 4
Combi-weapons split into "magna" and "minor" types, and both halves of the weapon can be fired at once. "Magna" are melta, plasma, and disintegrator and are one shot, all other variants are not one shot (prettyuch just a cleanup of what we already knew)
Lascannons have Sunder
Gravis blast weapons just use 5" blast instead of 3" (again phasing out twin linked)
Plasma are AP4 Breach (4+), essentially 4+ Rending
Lascutters now also have an 8" S10 AP1 Armorbane shot as well as the melee attack
Speaking of melee, combat blades, chainswords, bayonets, and chain bayonets all have different profiles
Combat blades are base profile
Bayonets are +1S Two Handed
Chainswords have Shred
Chain Bayonets are +1S Two Handed Shred
(Kinda unnecessary imo but I'm not gonna complain about it)
New Charnable weapons, "tabre and stave"
Force stave and power lance have "Reach", whatever that does
Power swords are AP3 Rending, Power Mauls are +2S AP3, Axes remain unchanged
Lightning Claws have Rending, and pairing them gives +2A instead of +1A

 tauist wrote:
I don't think we will be seeing much xenos featured in HH. I might be alone in thinking this, but I've always thought that GW wants to keep Necromunda and Horus Heresy distinctive from 40K by mainly featuring HUMANS. It presents an alternative viewpoint for the 40K world which might appeal more to players who are not into "Alien of the month" type of scifi. It feels grittier, more realistic.

Might be able to make some xenos work but definitely not needed at all and the already weirder factions like deamons of the ruinstorm and mechanicum have some pretty broken stuff already, not a lot of trust to make xenos stuff that works or feels balanced. I really wish necromunda had a dirt simple matched play game with an extensive build list, I get that it's probably a good game provided you can get a campaign going, it seems impossible to make work outside of a campaign. To drbored's point about needing a lot of books, its definitely guilty of that. Then you get kill team which is just sorta wtf, especially for a game that should be like wargear 101 it seems weird and rigid.

I also really like the greater similitude in playing Horus Heresy.

I never feel like we're playing the same armies - we've always picked units which are noticeably different, our faction abilities are different, we play them different, etc etc.

But I also always feel like I know what's up. I know what that Contemptor Dreadnought does, I know what those Terminators do, etc etc.
Contrast that to 40k where armies don't really feel any more different to me (durable melee unit is durable melee unit) but I do feel like I have no idea what's going on.
The feth does a haemonculi do? I can't even spell it! Too late, turns out it murders me.

I also agree with the sentiment that GW wants each game to be distinct, which I like. If all games were the same, sure you could flit between games as it took your fancy, but what would be the point if they were just reskins with minor adjustments?
So I don't fear them adding xenos to 30k.

 zedmeister wrote:
New pile of "leaks":

Spoiler:

New "disintegrator" rifles, pistols, and combi-weapons mostly available to centurions and seeker sgts
Rotor cannons are Assault now with Pinning and Shell Shock (1), apparently causing -1Ld to the subsequent Pinning check
Nemesis Bolter, 72" Heavy 1, Sniper, maybe replacing sniper rifles for Legions
Thunder hammers are now Sunder instead of concussive (HELL yeah)
Dark Angels Warlord trait previously leaked as allowing to select bonuses against certain factions lists "Dark Mechanicum" as one faction
Salamanders no also have -1S to incoming plasma, melta, and volkite. -1" charge/run/sweep is gone, Morale bonus now attached to a legion specific Warlord Trait
Raven Guard split into Hawks/Talons/Falcons that confer different bonuses to different unit types
Iron Hands -1S to incoming shooting now applies to all non-vehicle units (including new MC dreadnoughts), all vehicles get 6+ It Will Not Die and Autosimulacra can increase that to 5+
Iron Hands specific reaction to overwatch at full BS twice with Gets Hot!
Iron Father's get a machinator array instead of a servo arm, have Battle Smith (3+)
Toxiferran flamers are now just Poison and Rending instead of Tainted
Flamestorm cannons are no longer AP3 but have Torrent
Volkite Calivers are Heavy 3
The Kratos is a new heavy tank that has a turret battle cannon/melta cannon/volkite turret with 4 weapons across the turret and sponsons, mostly autocannons, heavy bolters, and volkite culverins
All terminators now have two wounds!
Cataphractii and Tartaros are split into different unit profiles
Primarchs and Fortifications have their own Force Org slot
Primarchs can be taken 1 per primary detachment but count towards LoW points
Allied detachments are larger
Destroyer squads split into "Assault" and "Mortis" units
Despoiler squads return and Scout Squads added to tactical and Recon Squads as troops choices
Termites are now universal DT's like rhinos for most things (oh boy)
Most vehicles are now squadrons, including Deredeo talons, Sikarans, Whirlwinds (including Scorpius), all Sicaran variants, predators (in up to 5), Cerberus, and Typhons
Proteus Land Raider has been split into "Carrier" and "Exploratory" variants (presumably just making a different unit entry for the explorator web upgrade)
Space Wolves are getting a "Grey Hunter" unit
All weapons have been rebalanced to be viable (lets see how that goes)
Weapon S can go above 10, but is capped at S10 for wounding but "true" value is used for armor pen and ID
Twinlinked is more or less being replaced with Gravis ala 40k (double shots)
Autocannons and variants now have Rending
Astartes Shotguns have concussive
Demo cannons are AP3 but have rules to increase them above S10 for ID and armor pen
Heavy Bolters are now Heavy 4
Combi-weapons split into "magna" and "minor" types, and both halves of the weapon can be fired at once. "Magna" are melta, plasma, and disintegrator and are one shot, all other variants are not one shot (prettyuch just a cleanup of what we already knew)
Lascannons have Sunder
Gravis blast weapons just use 5" blast instead of 3" (again phasing out twin linked)
Plasma are AP4 Breach (4+), essentially 4+ Rending
Lascutters now also have an 8" S10 AP1 Armorbane shot as well as the melee attack
Speaking of melee, combat blades, chainswords, bayonets, and chain bayonets all have different profiles
Combat blades are base profile
Bayonets are +1S Two Handed
Chainswords have Shred
Chain Bayonets are +1S Two Handed Shred
(Kinda unnecessary imo but I'm not gonna complain about it)
New Charnable weapons, "tabre and stave"
Force stave and power lance have "Reach", whatever that does
Power swords are AP3 Rending, Power Mauls are +2S AP3, Axes remain unchanged
Lightning Claws have Rending, and pairing them gives +2A instead of +1A

There's a lot to unpack there.

I find the unique profiles for terminators a bit worrying. I also find the salamander legion rules changes a bit odd--making the thing the salamanders are known for (never giving up to the point of being almost suicidal) a warlord trait quality and not something inherent to the legion.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
New pile of "leaks":

Spoiler:

New "disintegrator" rifles, pistols, and combi-weapons mostly available to centurions and seeker sgts
Rotor cannons are Assault now with Pinning and Shell Shock (1), apparently causing -1Ld to the subsequent Pinning check
Nemesis Bolter, 72" Heavy 1, Sniper, maybe replacing sniper rifles for Legions
Thunder hammers are now Sunder instead of concussive (HELL yeah)
Dark Angels Warlord trait previously leaked as allowing to select bonuses against certain factions lists "Dark Mechanicum" as one faction
Salamanders no also have -1S to incoming plasma, melta, and volkite. -1" charge/run/sweep is gone, Morale bonus now attached to a legion specific Warlord Trait
Raven Guard split into Hawks/Talons/Falcons that confer different bonuses to different unit types
Iron Hands -1S to incoming shooting now applies to all non-vehicle units (including new MC dreadnoughts), all vehicles get 6+ It Will Not Die and Autosimulacra can increase that to 5+
Iron Hands specific reaction to overwatch at full BS twice with Gets Hot!
Iron Father's get a machinator array instead of a servo arm, have Battle Smith (3+)
Toxiferran flamers are now just Poison and Rending instead of Tainted
Flamestorm cannons are no longer AP3 but have Torrent
Volkite Calivers are Heavy 3
The Kratos is a new heavy tank that has a turret battle cannon/melta cannon/volkite turret with 4 weapons across the turret and sponsons, mostly autocannons, heavy bolters, and volkite culverins
All terminators now have two wounds!
Cataphractii and Tartaros are split into different unit profiles
Primarchs and Fortifications have their own Force Org slot
Primarchs can be taken 1 per primary detachment but count towards LoW points
Allied detachments are larger
Destroyer squads split into "Assault" and "Mortis" units
Despoiler squads return and Scout Squads added to tactical and Recon Squads as troops choices
Termites are now universal DT's like rhinos for most things (oh boy)
Most vehicles are now squadrons, including Deredeo talons, Sikarans, Whirlwinds (including Scorpius), all Sicaran variants, predators (in up to 5), Cerberus, and Typhons
Proteus Land Raider has been split into "Carrier" and "Exploratory" variants (presumably just making a different unit entry for the explorator web upgrade)
Space Wolves are getting a "Grey Hunter" unit
All weapons have been rebalanced to be viable (lets see how that goes)
Weapon S can go above 10, but is capped at S10 for wounding but "true" value is used for armor pen and ID
Twinlinked is more or less being replaced with Gravis ala 40k (double shots)
Autocannons and variants now have Rending
Astartes Shotguns have concussive
Demo cannons are AP3 but have rules to increase them above S10 for ID and armor pen
Heavy Bolters are now Heavy 4
Combi-weapons split into "magna" and "minor" types, and both halves of the weapon can be fired at once. "Magna" are melta, plasma, and disintegrator and are one shot, all other variants are not one shot (prettyuch just a cleanup of what we already knew)
Lascannons have Sunder
Gravis blast weapons just use 5" blast instead of 3" (again phasing out twin linked)
Plasma are AP4 Breach (4+), essentially 4+ Rending
Lascutters now also have an 8" S10 AP1 Armorbane shot as well as the melee attack
Speaking of melee, combat blades, chainswords, bayonets, and chain bayonets all have different profiles
Combat blades are base profile
Bayonets are +1S Two Handed
Chainswords have Shred
Chain Bayonets are +1S Two Handed Shred
(Kinda unnecessary imo but I'm not gonna complain about it)
New Charnable weapons, "tabre and stave"
Force stave and power lance have "Reach", whatever that does
Power swords are AP3 Rending, Power Mauls are +2S AP3, Axes remain unchanged
Lightning Claws have Rending, and pairing them gives +2A instead of +1A

There's a lot to unpack there.

I find the unique profiles for terminators a bit worrying. I also find the salamander legion rules changes a bit odd--making the thing the salamanders are known for (never giving up to the point of being almost suicidal) a warlord trait quality and not something inherent to the legion.

I think it works as a warlord trait. It would mean their leader needs to be a Salamander for it to work. THat means them being part of a crusade group they may not benefit from it. Kind of gives the notion that they may be put in a place where there is some questioning of commands if another warlord is in charge, like "Is this really a cause worth dying for?"

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I find the unique profiles for terminators a bit worrying.

It makes sense when you consider they're adding in the Movement stat back in.

Speculation time; maybe that combined with a potential cleanup of USRs means it makes sense to split the Terminator armours into different profiles. How many units had slow and purposeful, for example. I'm pretty sure it was just Cataphractii but happy to be proved wrong. If it is just 1 unit, why keep a USR for one unit?

Unless you're running Shattered Legions you can only have 2 detachments, 1 core, and 1 allied, so the idea is a bit dumb that the Salamanders lose their core belief as a Legion just because the core detachment is led by an Imperial Fist or an Ultramarine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
It makes sense when you consider they're adding in the Movement stat back in.

Speculation time; maybe that combined with a potential cleanup of USRs means it makes sense to split the Terminator armours into different profiles. How many units had slow and purposeful, for example. I'm pretty sure it was just Cataphractii but happy to be proved wrong. If it is just 1 unit, why keep a USR for one unit?

Cataphractii don't have Slow and Purposeful, it was removed when the rulest became Age of Darkness. Instead units equipped with Cataphractii cannot make sweeping advances.