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 Gert wrote:
Unless you're running Shattered Legions you can only have 2 detachments, 1 core, and 1 allied, so the idea is a bit dumb that the Salamanders lose their core belief as a Legion just because the core detachment is led by an Imperial Fist or an Ultramarine.


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 zedmeister wrote:
It makes sense when you consider they're adding in the Movement stat back in.

Speculation time; maybe that combined with a potential cleanup of USRs means it makes sense to split the Terminator armours into different profiles. How many units had slow and purposeful, for example. I'm pretty sure it was just Cataphractii but happy to be proved wrong. If it is just 1 unit, why keep a USR for one unit?

Cataphractii don't have Slow and Purposeful, it was removed when the rulest became Age of Darkness. Instead units equipped with Cataphractii cannot make sweeping advances.

excuse me while I go re-read the rules

For some reason, slow and purposeful is always stuck in my head whenever I see Cataphractii Terminators getting used

It used to be a rule they had but it was removed because it was dumb.

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

I think that is well put and something commonly overlooked (both inadvertently as well as purposefully). People who weren't happy with 41k likely also don't want Malibu Astartes now with a new helmet. The flip side of that is of course from the business' perspective in that they want relative interchangeability between their related systems to a large degree.

People who weren't happy with 41k likely also don't want Malibu Astartes now with a new helmet.

Not going to go into the merits of the two systems, but that's a weird, weird assertion.

Most HH players I've met or interacted with are very obsessed with this or that Mark of power armor and will argue vociferously about their chosen preference of Malibu Astartes.

There are two main attractions to HH for people.

- 40k for people that don't like 40k/preferred the old rules.

- as a 40k "historical" game for people that like that. I do find there is a noticeably different 'zeitgeist' in historicals vs free-form fantasy/sci-fi games (and I'm not talking about the bizarre idea that we're all nazi idealists I hear from people)

Both are very real impressions and I dare say almost every HH player will identify with one or both of those points.

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

But for this to be a successful launch for GW and push kits the way they want, they need to game to be more than an off ramp for the disgruntled.

Who's that new batch of rumours from, the same as the previous leaks?

If "Mortis" destroyers means legions other than Ultras can get big honkin' Tactical squads with rad weapons, I hope they're accurate.

There's always MESBG as the last resort where to retreat, if new rules will be too simplified/9thed/blasphemed

 Gert wrote:
It used to be a rule they had but it was removed because it was dumb.

It was removed because people would take a cheap character with cataphracti armor and put them in a unit of heavy weapons, conferring SnP to the unit and allowing the unit to move and still shoot their heavy weapons with no penalty.

Exactly, it was dumb.

I'd be pretty down getting on board with the Heresy if they do a decent job with a smaller format of the game (along the lines of Combat Patrol or Zone Mortalis). I'm totally burnt out on 40k with all the constant rules changes, new campaign books that update army lists, etc. As a person who only plays casually, it's just way too much to keep up with (not to mention I don't want to keep buying 50 dollar books that are invalidated 6 months later).

I've always liked the fluff and models, but was generally turn away by nearly everything being resin and the general way to play the game being massive battles.

 Gert wrote:
Exactly, it was dumb.

That's not the rule on the armour being dumb, though - which is what you implied - it's the interaction between the armour providing the rule and how that interacts with independent characters joining units.

That interaction is something you'd hope a new edition would consider looking at, as I'm sure there's a variety of rules that make no sense spreading from an IC to a unit it joins - Bulky, for example.

It also meant that Emperor's Children couldn't use the only plastic Terminator kits. I still think my expert analysis was spot on.

 Gert wrote:
It also meant that Emperor's Children couldn't use the only plastic Terminator kits. I still think my expert analysis was spot on.

Indomitus Armor wasnt slow and purposeful and existed in the Heresy.

 gorgon wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

But for this to be a successful launch for GW and push kits the way they want, they need to game to be more than an off ramp for the disgruntled.

Great, so instead of being an off ramp for the disgruntled it can be a tomb for the perennial bandwagon jumpers the second its no longer a priority for gw which is probably 6 months.

Here's a simple theory why gw's stock is down a third, maybe people the amount of free time people who were locked down for two years had is slowly going back to normal levels meaning less hobby/gaming time overall. We can pretend every new game gw makes is forging its own market, but honestly its just splitting the same market IMO. Also what looked initially like a light touch is quickly turning into a "changed seemingly everything" so I'm never going to be in the camp of change is inherently good or needed, esp not with 30k. Hurray for new plastics, silver lining achieved.


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 warboss wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

I think that is well put and something commonly overlooked (both inadvertently as well as purposefully). People who weren't happy with 41k likely also don't want Malibu Astartes now with a new helmet. The flip side of that is of course from the business' perspective in that they want relative interchangeability between their related systems to a large degree.

The malibu astartes reference is the perfect example of the lowly gw fanboy, but not just that, it seems to embody what gw has to offer or thinks it should.





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 Sabotage! wrote:
I'd be pretty down getting on board with the Heresy if they do a decent job with a smaller format of the game (along the lines of Combat Patrol or Zone Mortalis). I'm totally burnt out on 40k with all the constant rules changes, new campaign books that update army lists, etc. As a person who only plays casually, it's just way too much to keep up with (not to mention I don't want to keep buying 50 dollar books that are invalidated 6 months later).

I've always liked the fluff and models, but was generally turn away by nearly everything being resin and the general way to play the game being massive battles.

Ya 40k just seems to require way too much week to week attention on the gaming side. The constant pointless churn takes the wargame out of it and makes it feel more like a card game.


That's also something I hadn't considered about the reactions stuff, how it may affect smaller 30k games like zone mortalis stuff.

One of the major things I've noticed when 9th edition came out is that GW's player retention shrank very quickly.

You had a lot of people that enjoyed 8th, liked the direction it was going, but most acknowledged it was getting kinda bloated by the end. So what does 9th do? They ramp up the bloat.

People get into the game, the major starter box set has a board, terrain, a bunch of models of space marines and necrons, and it all is pretty great. New players come into a Warhammer store, they buy that box set, they play with the base rules, and then they go to a discord server or forum or reddit or wherever else to ask 'how do I expand from here' and at this point the answer is invariably:

"You need about 3-5 books and an investment of about a thousand dollars worth of models." And that's setting aside the little spats that always happen, where one person will say "don't buy that it sucks" and another will say "buy it because you think it's cool" and then the first will say "ugh but its rules are terribad" and the other person will say "that's fine, the rules change all the time" and by the time the spat is over, the newbie has already left the channel because they realize it's too much of a headache to stick with and they'll sell their models on ebay and go back to playing video games.

New people are still coming into Warhammer stores. I know, because I see it with my own eyes. The GW manager is always talking about how many starter sets he sells, and how that's a metric that GW really cares about. But you know how often I see those newbies come back? Almost never.

If 40k doesn't change course and make itself more accessible, then it won't matter how good 30k is or isn't. It won't matter if people stick with the 7th ed rules or one-page rules or whatever 2.0 is, because it'll be the same exact niche of people that have been playing and collecting up to this point.

In order to get into 30k at all, more people need to be attracted by 40k.

The irony of all of this is that they have, over the past decade+, made a big deal about their 30k novel series, with some of the best books written on warhammer lore, and yet 30k is a super-niche after-thought of Forgeworld. RIP Bligh, but if you're making a product you can't mourn forever. Either shut the whole thing down and go home or put out the product.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

Do yourself a favor and never listen/watch outer circle. Ever.

9th has a major rules bloat / power creep issue. It’s unfortunate because the base rule set for 9th corrected some of the biggest problems with 8th, but now they’ve gone full crazy town with the codexes and supplements and stratagems. I like stratagems but there’s simply too many imo.

I’m pretty excited for this new HH rule set as I love the idea of reactions adding some involvement. We shall see if they implement it well or poorly, but the idea has merit.

Quasistellar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

Do yourself a favor and never listen/watch outer circle. Ever.

They're better than the vapid fanboyism that exists elsewhere.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

Do yourself a favor and never listen/watch outer circle. Ever.

They're better than the vapid fanboyism that exists elsewhere.

I personally don't understand this mentality.

"I like these people because they crap on the thing that I like and keep me grounded in reality, unlike those others that actually -enjoy- the thing that they spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on."

I understand getting your news from multiple sources to see the whole picture, but when it comes to GW stuff there's not really 'news' about a release, just differing opinions. If you can't form and hold your own opinion and must look for validation from angry clickbait youtube talking heads, then maybe the problem isn't the fanboys.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

But for this to be a successful launch for GW and push kits the way they want, they need to game to be more than an off ramp for the disgruntled.

Great, so instead of being an off ramp for the disgruntled it can be a tomb for the perennial bandwagon jumpers the second its no longer a priority for gw which is probably 6 months.

Here's a simple theory why gw's stock is down a third, maybe people the amount of free time people who were locked down for two years had is slowly going back to normal levels meaning less hobby/gaming time overall. We can pretend every new game gw makes is forging its own market, but honestly its just splitting the same market IMO. Also what looked initially like a light touch is quickly turning into a "changed seemingly everything" so I'm never going to be in the camp of change is inherently good or needed, esp not with 30k. Hurray for new plastics, silver lining achieved.

Well, I'd say new plastics AND new blood, but it doesn't sound like you're interested in the latter.

 gorgon wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
HH is exactly that, a refuge for people who did not like direction 40k went with 8-9.

But for this to be a successful launch for GW and push kits the way they want, they need to game to be more than an off ramp for the disgruntled.

Great, so instead of being an off ramp for the disgruntled it can be a tomb for the perennial bandwagon jumpers the second its no longer a priority for gw which is probably 6 months.

Here's a simple theory why gw's stock is down a third, maybe people the amount of free time people who were locked down for two years had is slowly going back to normal levels meaning less hobby/gaming time overall. We can pretend every new game gw makes is forging its own market, but honestly its just splitting the same market IMO. Also what looked initially like a light touch is quickly turning into a "changed seemingly everything" so I'm never going to be in the camp of change is inherently good or needed, esp not with 30k. Hurray for new plastics, silver lining achieved.

Well, I'd say new plastics AND new blood, but it doesn't sound like you're interested in the latter.

I'll believe it when I see it, but it's probably just old blood in between release weekends for 40k or something.


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drbored wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

Do yourself a favor and never listen/watch outer circle. Ever.

They're better than the vapid fanboyism that exists elsewhere.

I personally don't understand this mentality.

"I like these people because they crap on the thing that I like and keep me grounded in reality, unlike those others that actually -enjoy- the thing that they spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on."

I understand getting your news from multiple sources to see the whole picture, but when it comes to GW stuff there's not really 'news' about a release, just differing opinions. If you can't form and hold your own opinion and must look for validation from angry clickbait youtube talking heads, then maybe the problem isn't the fanboys.

That's not even a fair description of outer circle, plenty of non salt mining hobby videos you've elected to ignore.


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Racerguy180 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I have 40k 2nd ed. as a back-up if the new rules are a pile of steaming horse dung.

Although I honestly hope for the sake of the community that they make a decent effort to make them playable, there have been too many other communities of GW games split by a poor new release that then leads to people not jumping directly into it, wanting to play with old rules and things like that.

That's certainly a concern.

The Outer Circle said recently that he's seen the new rules and thinks they're a poor mix of 7th and 8th. Granted OC is known being being on the more negative, but his comments match what the snippets that I have seen.
It's concering, I hope they're wrong.

Do yourself a favor and never listen/watch outer circle. Ever.

They're better than the vapid fanboyism that exists elsewhere.

Agreed, every new release should not require universal praise to remain in the group or on the good side of the enforced positivity gatekeepers, some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers tired of of their lack of enthusiasm for every latest thing being requiring some accusation of rose coloured glasses. It's weird too, everyone seems to acknowledge the full on book fatigue that plagues 9th while telling others the only correct perspective on the new rumored rules is basically thankyou sir may i have some more. Meh, the new plasstic require zero enthusiasm of the rules on my part to continue to come into existence.

 Crablezworth wrote:
some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers

In no time or place in all of creation has this ever been true.

JSG wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers

In no time or place in all of creation has this ever been true.

Then your own bias is in the way. Some of the best experiences I had (in addition to playing with fellow noobs like myself) were sitting around a table post game munching on snacks and soda listening in to how wacky, crazy, and weird things were back in RT and even 2e back when I was completely new to 40k when they switched to 3rd edition. They were a great source of knowledge (both personal/anecdotal and in game/universe) and I enjoyed hearing about how things used to be even if it came with a spoonful of criticism for 3rd edition frequently.

 warboss wrote:

JSG wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers

In no time or place in all of creation has this ever been true.

Then your own bias is in the way. Some of the best experiences I had (in addition to playing with fellow noobs like myself) were sitting around a table post game munching on snacks and soda listening in to how wacky, crazy, and weird things were back in RT and even 2e back when I was completely new to 40k when they switched to 3rd edition. They were a great source of knowledge (both personal/anecdotal and in game/universe) and I enjoyed hearing about how things used to be even if it came with a spoonful of criticism for 3rd edition frequently.

I think your definition of 'disgruntled gamer' is very different than mine...

Listening to a beardy go over 'ye olde days' can be fun, but if I'm playing against a disgruntled gamer, I'm imagining someone that gets upset when the game doesn't go their way and blames GW for making such unbalanced and crappy rules and then goes on a tirade about how awful everything is in their eyes and swears that they'll sell their army soon. I have played against multiple of these people and I can assure you that they are not the 'best people around'.

Casual gamers that want to have a fun narrative experience, whether they're new or they've collected models since the RT days is probably what you're talking about, moreso than the label 'disgruntled gamers'.

But anyway, one way or another we've got months and months still to wait, and it seems like GW isn't going to be forthcoming with any news until they're a month out from release, so here we sit and wait.

12 days until Adepticon.. Didn't the rumours say HH 2.0 would be announced then?

 tauist wrote:
12 days until Adepticon.. Didn't the rumours say HH 2.0 would be announced then?

Yeah I think so. A couple rumors have also said there'd be a June release.

Local GW manager was told by his bosses effectively "there's no core set release this summer, so glhf", in other words, no new edition for AoS or 40k, and no new Contrast paints to fill the gap either

I suggested that the 30k stuff might be the core set, and he explained that it could be, but it wouldn't be considered a 'core set' because of the niche.

Kinda all fits together nicely.

JSG wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers

In no time or place in all of creation has this ever been true.

This statement is false. And personally offensive, but the attitude it expresses does explain some of the disgruntlement.

drbored wrote:

 warboss wrote:

JSG wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
some of the best people around are old disgruntled gamers

In no time or place in all of creation has this ever been true.

Then your own bias is in the way. Some of the best experiences I had (in addition to playing with fellow noobs like myself) were sitting around a table post game munching on snacks and soda listening in to how wacky, crazy, and weird things were back in RT and even 2e back when I was completely new to 40k when they switched to 3rd edition. They were a great source of knowledge (both personal/anecdotal and in game/universe) and I enjoyed hearing about how things used to be even if it came with a spoonful of criticism for 3rd edition frequently.

I think your definition of 'disgruntled gamer' is very different than mine...

Listening to a beardy go over 'ye olde days' can be fun, but if I'm playing against a disgruntled gamer, I'm imagining someone that gets upset when the game doesn't go their way and blames GW for making such unbalanced and crappy rules and then goes on a tirade about how awful everything is in their eyes and swears that they'll sell their army soon. I have played against multiple of these people and I can assure you that they are not the 'best people around'.

Casual gamers that want to have a fun narrative experience, whether they're new or they've collected models since the RT days is probably what you're talking about, moreso than the label 'disgruntled gamers'.

But anyway, one way or another we've got months and months still to wait, and it seems like GW isn't going to be forthcoming with any news until they're a month out from release, so here we sit and wait.

And casual gamers being anyone who agrees with your preference's on gaming? Would I be in the totally disgruntled camp? I thought this hobby was for everyone?

Some of the best people to be around are also gruntled players, it’s almost as if your level of gruntledness about a miniatures game has no real bearing on your quality as a person.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Some of the best people to be around are also gruntled players, it’s almost as if your level of gruntledness about a miniatures game has no real bearing on your quality as a person.

Sure, but if that gruntled nature is rendered disgruntled by others not sharing 100% said gruntled perspective on all things related to their game or hobby of preference, said content and gruntled nature seems fragile. I totally understand not wanting to be subsumed in negativity and hot takes, but I don't get pretending to exist in a world where everyone is always in total agreement all the time either. There is plenty to be gruntled about, like cool miniatures, nice paintjobs and wonderful photography of both, maybe I don't want fresh blood, maybe just dedicated blood, perhaps someone who doesn't jump at the first lack of praise or mistake every scar as a chip on one's shoulder.

GW offers ample reasons for one to be gruntled, or disgruntled, at any one time.

I hope they announce something at adepticon, waiting till the summer seems like a slog.