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 JohnnyHell wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping

Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.

Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.

Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.

It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.

Here's the HH bg pic shopped to a brighter version

I don't see how the MKVI models on the box wouldn't be accurate to "History" if that was the most used mark during the Siege Of Terra. Remember, this box isn't about any and every setting in 30k, it's about the siege. Yall just jonesing for Mk II, just like I was jonesing for proper plastic Mk VI for 20 years. I hope you too will get what you want eventually.

Cant say this pict wouldn't bring a tear to a RT fan's eye.. 2022! What a journey its been. Never thought I'd see the day.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping

Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.

Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.

Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.

It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.

Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].

Honestly, all the current HH lore is retcons. None of the vehicles existed back when I played Epic, set initially during the Heresy. It’s not real history. Anytime GW want to change something they can and will. If that’s what you dislike that’s ok, but honestly anyone using the word ‘gatekeeping’ unironically is a hair away from saying the quiet parts out loud and not someone I’d game with anyway.

Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft. And people usually use gatekeeping to mean “keeping out women/BIPOC/LGBTQIA+” anyway. If you didn’t know that maybe don’t use the term. If you did, well…

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping

Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.

Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.

Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.

It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.

Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].

Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.

Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.

And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

JSG wrote:
TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.

You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".

You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?

They're selling a heavily discounted space marine army in a box, the only danger lies in it selling out too quickly.

JSG wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

JSG wrote:
TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.

You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".

You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?

They're selling a heavily discounted space marine army in a box, the only danger lies in it selling out too quickly.

I could actually see GW trying to leverage some of that quasi-historical sentiment some players have, getting people to invest in late war armor now that it comes out in shiny new, better proportioned plastic because it is markedly different from the Mk.III and IV armors that have been available in plastic already, and then getting easy additional sales on a second release down the line of an earlier armor like the much requested Mk.II. Get people to upgrade their old plastic models not once but twice, first for the better looks over what has previously been available, then another time for games set earlier in the war or during the Great Crusade. That'd be clever and in line with GW's goal of getting all the monies.

As a bonus they get to bring back beakies for the 35th anniversary of Rogue Trader and get some marketing value out of that.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping

Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.

Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.

Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.

It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.

Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].

Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.

Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.

And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.

It doesn't sound like a subreddit dying means very much to the game. Especially if the people involved don't want to educate new players.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


Different armour Marks didn't even exist in the original Heresy pre-BL.

All you describe above is post-retcon anyway and pointless drivel of no concern to genuine Horus Heresy fans.

Rick Priestly and the 1991 Compilation disagree with you.

Spoiler:

Now of course all of the original Epic and Titanicus art had lil tiny Mark 6 Marines since at the time that was the only brand of Marine. So Marks 1-5 were shoved into the Unification Wars, the Great Crusade and the early Heresy, but they were definitely there.

To piggyback off this, the "Armour through the Ages" set that GW just put on LCTB is made up of models dated from 1990 (MkI and II) and 1991 (III-V).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?

It's retcons all the way down people.

The only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

Before yall panic further, take apeek at one of the illustrations in today's WHC article:



How many MkVI images do you see?

I think the sky isn't falling anytime soon..




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping

Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.

Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.

Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.

It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.

Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].

Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.

Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.

And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.

So let me get this straight? Not only do you want to establish some sort of "baseline" for how much research a person should do learning about a GAME OF TOY SOLDIERS, but that if everyone doesn't reach your arbitrarily set baseline, you would rather this game never existed, so that nobody could ever enjoy it?

I don't think I've ever heard a more egotistical comment online. You get the honour of being added to my ignore list today, farewell.

The problem is, the Mk VI isn't "anachronistic".

The Alpha Legion was able to acquire small numbers of Corvus Armour and modified it according to their Legion's own needs. Built in secret, the "Corvus-Alpha" pattern of Corvus Armour saw use openly during the Horus Heresy.

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits. By the time of the Siege of Terra, Mark VI was the most numerous pattern in service, and this would continue well into the Scouring and the present age.

Surprise, TOC and company are full of gak.

What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Surprise, TOC and company are full of gak.

This is pure conjecture on my part, but I stand by my belief that he started as just some random guy with opinions and either actively or passively came to the realization that he could monetize those opinions by leaning into the more controversial ones.

Look at this current controversy. It's a complete non-issue: The availability of a mark of armour among the legions by the time of the siege.

Does this affect the actual table top game in any way? No.
Does this affect peoples' existing model collections in any way? No.
Are people forced to buy these new models? No.
Does it massively impact the background story in any way? No.

This is literally the dumbest hill to die on. It has literally no substantive consequence to anyone except for their attachment to fringe notes in the game background. That's why I believe it has to be manufactured, because it's just so dumb.

As to the discussion on gate-keeping, Wha-Mu-077's point is pretty weak because what they're describing as gate keeping isn't gate keeping against new players, it's gate keeping against people who don't know how to do their own research. So in that regard, yes, enforcing standards on posting isn't a bad thing, but their example has nothing to do with gate keeping the hobby itself and thus doesn't really stand as a defence of it within the hobby.

 Crimson wrote:
What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?

Just off the top of my head? The illustration on the page for the Night Lord's rules in 3.5 depicts one of the Night Lords in a "Beakie" helmet. Page 42 to be precise.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
The problem is, the Mk VI isn't "anachronistic".

The Alpha Legion was able to acquire small numbers of Corvus Armour and modified it according to their Legion's own needs. Built in secret, the "Corvus-Alpha" pattern of Corvus Armour saw use openly during the Horus Heresy.

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits. By the time of the Siege of Terra, Mark VI was the most numerous pattern in service, and this would continue well into the Scouring and the present age.

Surprise, TOC and company are full of gak.

Who/what is TOC?

Regardless thanks for the link as you're proving the retcon though I suspect that wasn't your initial goal. If you look at the actual source cited in that entry, it's White Dwarf 469 from October last year when the contents of this set were likely already set in stone and portions even already produced. If that's the only source for it supposedly suddenly being the most common variant then they're changing the decades old backstory to match the realities of the real world physical products/production that they want to sell now. I'm not saying that I think there wasn't Mk VI around at that time (there absolutely was!) or that I don't like it's inclusion in this upcoming boxed set (I do!)... but let's not pretend that they're not fudging the history to suit their current agenda.

Again.. I'm glad they're making a new Mk VI set just like I was happy about the previous plastics of Mk II-IV. I'm even happier as a former truscale enthusiast that they've embiggened the marines. I thought Alpharius was foolish in selling his awesome custom supersized Alpha Legion minis but it turns out that he was ahead of the curve and can now rebuild them at a fraction of the cost!

 smurfORnot wrote:

JWBS wrote:
The general consensus is that resin is more expensive in material, in labour, and in economies of scale.

China disagrees with ya xD

I'm going to assume this is in reference to recasters and, if so, I disagree.

Recasters are arguably not subject to the same quality standards for products or input materials, are likely operating under little to no health and safety regulations, are likely paying their staff nothing in wages and benefits compared to what is expected in the west, and are also likely operating at a scale that is massively dwarfed by GWs. The comparisons are weak.

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.

Then your hobby corner deserves to die, if you won't accept people into it. God forbid people show an interest by asking questions.

ClockworkZion wrote:Thr only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

Amen.

I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.

Heck, MKIV was also some of the most liked armor and helmets designs until Primaris reused it and now many people dislike it as some kind of armor hipsters.


I mean. Mk 2 and 3 are also my favourite marks of armor. But we allready have armor 3 and 4. I can understand why GW didn't wanted to do mk2 because if people remembers correctly the current horus heresy production timeline is basically near the Solar Wars and the narrative end of the setting so it makes sense for them to tie it with this relaunch of the game.

And with stuff like this is pretty clear:

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits

That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.

It's also entirely stupid given that, based on the rest of the rumoured scope of plastic kits, they will likely make MK2 in plastic eventually as well.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

The lack of irony is palpable but sadly endemic to the current year.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

So basically... gatekeeping is bad unless it's directed against people you don't like. Just for reference, this is the definition of tolerance.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tolerance

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own

The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse. And I say that as someone who chose not to play against a local player back in 3rd edition when he was using a Confederate themed IG army. I didn't try to have him banished from the story nor did I refuse to engage with him (either in talk or in game when he wasn't using the particular army). No one is forcing you to agree with people you don't agree with but rather to just treat them like people. That's what's been lost in this supposedly more progressive era.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
It's also entirely stupid given that, based on the rest of the rumoured scope of plastic kits, they will likely make MK2 in plastic eventually as well.

Yeah. If GW keeps supporting HH is basically a given that they'll end up making MARK II or MARK V in plastic.





I know what you are doing here is basically a proxy political discourse and has nothing to do with warhammer per se. But theres not a time where talking with people that has a genuine interest in a setting is a bad thing.

How many people has been teached about warhammer after doing a simple question like "Whats a bolter?" or "Ey look at this epic space man video I found, is this that warcraft thing you are always talking about?"

 warboss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

The lack of irony is palpable but sadly endemic to the current year.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

So basically... gatekeeping is bad unless it's directed against people you don't like. Just for reference, this is the definition of tolerance.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tolerance

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own

The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse.

No, I mean keeping out racists, sexists and fascists, not "dude who has a bad opinion about Orks" or some other gak.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

I actually agree with this.

Anywho, so does anyone think we will get new plastic tanks other than the Sicaran, I am wondering if we will be getting a diemos predator.

 Galas wrote:
I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.

I don't think the issue is it being in plastic but rather that the classic background is being altered to better the sales of that one kit.

And with stuff like this is pretty clear:

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits

That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.

If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?

It's retcons all the way down people.

Hell, I still have the 2E Chaos Codex where it states Fulgrim and the Emperors Children were with the loyalist legions who went to Istvaan, and Fulgrim decided to change sides during the parley with Horus there.

Anyway, I really don't care about the beakies one way or another, beakies never really "did it" for me (I like Mk3 best). It's just sad that HH brings forth the stereotype of historical wargamers arguing over the correct number of buttons on a particular year/campaign uniform.

 warboss wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.

I don't think the issue is it being in plastic but rather that the classic background is being altered to better the sales of that one kit.

And with stuff like this is pretty clear:

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits

That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.

If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.

You literally just made up some numbers to try to bolster your point.

I could say "I believe people is reading too much into this" but I know that people will do what gives them clicks and views.


But they aren't retconing anything. They chose this iconic armor kit to produce and they are using it to advertise the new edition of the game.

As much as I like MKII as my favourite type of armour I would find pushing them at the siege of terra as the most popular armour would be a bigger retcon.

And even still, is clear that they intend for you to use all classical marks of armor.

Did anybody said that they were retconing orks out of existence because all the fluff around 8th launch was about the ultramarines wars with the deathguard?

 warboss wrote:

And with stuff like this is pretty clear:

Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits

That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.

If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.

And that was 'changed' in Mechanicum (9th 30k novel) to MK IV - the Loyalists (commanded by Sigismund) got 'over' 12,000 suits off Mars before it fell.

 warboss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only gatekeeping in the hobby should be to keep the bigots out. Anything else is bs fake purity testing.

The lack of irony is palpable but sadly endemic to the current year.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

So basically... gatekeeping is bad unless it's directed against people you don't like. Just for reference, this is the definition of tolerance.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tolerance

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own

The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse. And I say that as someone who chose not to play against a local player back in 3rd edition when he was using a Confederate themed IG army. I didn't try to have him banished from the story nor did I refuse to engage with him (either in talk or in game when he wasn't using the particular army). No one is forcing you to agree with people you don't agree with but rather to just treat them like people. That's what's been lost in this supposedly more progressive era.

We do not have to tolerate intolerance. For example, we do not have to tolerate Nazis (neo- or otherwise) in our hobby.

Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.

And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.

This is the weirdest hill I have ever seen someone die on. It's so open ended and so personal that I think it is more or less impossible to define who is the "right" person in the hobby. Although I do get the sense that the definition is very agist because god forbid young people are interested in the hobby.

I sadly did not google bolters or Chaos Stars in 1997. Guess I don't count as a real player. I will therefore do my best to pollute the hobby corner so it dies for some reason nobody understands. I am, however, skeptical that it will die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

We do not have to tolerate intolerance. For example, we do not have to tolerate Nazis (neo- or otherwise) in our hobby.

Amen to that.