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I'm sure TS players would be ecstatic to take those Psyker-Chaplains you think are garbage, we'll figure out something to do with them I'm sure.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 18:29:08
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
Karol wrote: I don't see how any of those rules make termintors or paladins more exiting options. It probably makes strikes better though.
But to be honest, it is hard to make stuff exiting after the few marine previews. so I do 2 MW on a baby smite, is 100% upgrade, but looks funny when next to something like 70+ auto hits, unkillable units or stealth centurions.
Still better to have the rules, then not to have them. Am just not sure how this is suppose to help GK be on the same tier as IH or even RG.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
With strata they are str9 ap 2 dmg 2 without need line of sight...
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 18:47:39
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: I don't see how any of those rules make termintors or paladins more exiting options. It probably makes strikes better though.
But to be honest, it is hard to make stuff exiting after the few marine previews. so I do 2 MW on a baby smite, is 100% upgrade, but looks funny when next to something like 70+ auto hits, unkillable units or stealth centurions.
Still better to have the rules, then not to have them. Am just not sure how this is suppose to help GK be on the same tier as IH or even RG.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Yeah game was too killy and extreme even before marine codex. Things should be toned down rather than brought to ih/if level.
Alas gw made 8th ed play so slow best way they came up with to keep game end in reasonable time was to make it so extremely killy that by turn 3 not much left of armies
Karol wrote: If the GK unit sits in cover then opponent army is going to see it, unless someone is playing ITC rules with its first floor bunkers.
Do you not play with intervening terrain? There are plenty of ways to be in cover and also not visible.
Karol wrote: I don;t have any psilancers, so am not sure how good they are going to be, but psycanons even at str 8 and D2 don't have to be really impactful. not when there is one per 5 models in the squads.
Can be buffed to S9, AP -2, 2 D. And there are several ways to get more than 1 per 5 (Purgations, Purifiers, Paladins, etc).
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time?
The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.
Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken.
GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".
I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later.
If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.
Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Winds are not a "buff", buffs are only things like psychic powers.
Trust me, space marine stuff does not lose Doctrines if they leave the table.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 19:01:31
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.
This. I'm genuinely surprised anyone would need that spelled out.
Pancakey wrote: Still trash tier compared to new SM. Hopefully there are a TON of unannounced additions to this.
Yes, there will be additional Relics, Psi powers and so on. Obviously.
Don’t they usually “preview” for he best of the best?
No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
ERJAK wrote: No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
Ha, you man .
Edit: They previewed the best relic in the game, so good it broke entire armies. I swear it's like Momento around here some times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 19:27:17
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Don't do the flyer thing against VH Sisters. An exorcist puts down a -2 flyer about 85% of the time, with at least 1 good miracle dice.
ERJAK wrote: No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
Ha, you man .
Edit: They previewed the best relic in the game, so good it broke entire armies. I swear it's like Momento around here some times.
So they showed one powerful relic for that army, along with an utterly pointless stratagem. I think Erjaks point was that no, they're not just picking the most powerful options for their previews, and that they never did. I don't think he meant that they never showed the most powerful rule of a codex, and then there's the "deliberate" part, too. GW clearly didn't understand exactly how powerful the Ironstone was.
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Don't do the flyer thing against VH Sisters. An exorcist puts down a -2 flyer about 85% of the time, with at least 1 good miracle dice.
Edit: Didn't see the VH stratagem. Makes sense.
I still get only 7 damage with average rolls against T7 3+ space marine flyers, using a miracle die for a "6" on a damage roll.
exorcists are 3d3 S8 ap-2 d6d shots right?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 19:44:24
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
The one unit archtype that GW struggles to cost approrpriatley are squads that can solidly do work with both shooting and assault. Far too often, they overcost those models, seeing them being able to both shoot and fight really well. GKs pretty much all fall into that category, as they seemingly pay a premium for the storm bolter and the force weapon, as they should, but they charge way too much for a W1 MEQ.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.
2pts for 2 S5 AP-2 Dd3 attacks isn't what I'd call crazy unreasonable.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.
2pts for 2 S5 AP-2 Dd3 attacks isn't what I'd call crazy unreasonable.
There's a mismatch between the statblock and the quality of weapons. It's the same reason you don't see single-wound models with battle cannons, or T10 models with a 6+ armour save; it's too strong a weapon for too fragile a body. The quality of the weapon requires Grey Knights be 17pts/model but then squads get casually removed by inexpensive heavy guns long before they actually get to melee.
It's one of the reasons I'd rather Primaris had been interpreted as a resculpt rather than a new statblock and all Marines had started from the 2W/2A body.
Pancakey wrote: Still trash tier compared to new SM. Hopefully there are a TON of unannounced additions to this.
Well, the unholy mess that is Marines are hardly the benchmark.
Bring them in line with non-Marines and all, and it'll be fine.
Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 20:46:35
Sunny Side Up wrote: Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
I strongly disagree, but I'm playing Salamanders. I'd rather see them tackle the actual issues that make certain builds broken instead of adjusting points for ALL. Stuff like what they did to the Salamanders Flamer-MW-spam stratagem - which was completely broken initially, but is now capped at 3MW per use.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 20:49:50
Sunny Side Up wrote: Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
I strongly disagree, but I'm playing Salamanders. I'd rather see them tackle the actual issues that make certain builds broken instead of adjusting points for ALL. Stuff like what they did to the Salamanders Flamer-MW-spam stratagem - which was completely broken initially, but is now capped at 3MW per use.
Basic re-rolls, doctrines and point costs are still completely broken for all Marines. Even without supplements, they don't balance up against a majority of builds and armies out there. Sure, some specific units (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, etc..) and Strats (Chapter Master) need an additional specific look, but a flat 10%-20% point increase would be a good way to start, not least because the overall variety in Marine builds is pretty good and internal balance decent. It just isn't balanced against non-Marines.
D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
... with 24'' range weapons.
There is a +6 inch range for bolt and psyweapons spell. This will likely be pretty common in lists.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For the terminally uninformed (hello!), how do the Tides look to stack with existing buff powers?
If at all?
Well? It's a pure, bolted on upgrade, so GKs give nothing up to gain Tides. The Tides are situationally useful, with cover/stealth being used turn one most of the time, shifting to +1 MW in most lists.
Honestly these are great changes and will be playable. Smite spam will be really strong. They basically can have the ravengard army trait every first turn then army wide change to 2 damage smite (which is a regular smite average)
Draigo
2x GMDK
2x Brother captains
12x strikes strike squads
Paladin ancient is under 2000 points.
Puts out a potential 36 mortal wounds a turn at 24" Heck it's so good you might as well drop the GMNDK and bring 16 strikes and deck out the army with hammers on every strike squad.
Very Very powerful.
Or the other approach is to go interceptor heavy and you wont need brother captains. You lose out on a bunch of CP BUT you have in game mobility.
I am REALLY excited.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For the terminally uninformed (hello!), how do the Tides look to stack with existing buff powers?
If at all?
Well there is a +1 to cast bubble power. So this makes a crucially charge up Vortex of doom much more likely to cast. Assuming we get the same stratagems from the original GK codex. You could get + 2 to cast and roll 3 dice picking the highest 2 - that is a reasonably high chance of getting super vortex. The plus 1 to cast bubble also means the only fail on a regular smite is double 1's....which is not insignificant. Going from 4/36 to 1/36 on failure chance. Also hammer hand stacks really good with the reroll 1's to wound (previously had almost no way to reroll wounds) with force weapons ofc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 21:49:52
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You'd be better off with mass Interceptors spit into combat squads, 12" movement that can blink through walls for 3 points per model more.
Edit: ~600 points nets you 12 MW per turn and like 120 bolter shots, on top of the heavy weapons
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 21:53:48
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Krieg | 
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you man 
