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MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
12x strikes strike squads

You'd be better off with mass Interceptors spit into combat squads, 12" movement that can blink through walls.

Yeah thinking this as well as an all in strategy. Maybe half and half and just deep strike the strikes with a bro champ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm sure TS players would be ecstatic to take those Psyker-Chaplains you think are garbage, we'll figure out something to do with them I'm sure.

Probably wont use the botler range power but it's not bad. I am sure there is a better one.

Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on

 Orodhen wrote:


Do you not play with intervening terrain? There are plenty of ways to be in cover and also not visible.


Can be buffed to S9, AP -2, 2 D. And there are several ways to get more than 1 per 5 (Purgations, Purifiers, Paladins, etc).

yes, but any window or door means they are going to be seen. We don't have knight sized windowless terrain here. Just normal buildings, hills etc. We stoped using forests a long time ago, because they did nothing.

Purgation and purfires are all in power armour, and to deep strike them you need to burn CP for the teleportarium. Paladins are technicly a better option for me, because I don't have many power armoured GK. But the termintors I have are half armed with incinerators, and am not going to buy boxs of termintors just to get a single model with a psycanon. Againt the change isn't bad, but it is not comperable to marine players having models they owned or which they could counts as made very good over night, without any money spend required.

Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.

the falchions are. IMO a chapter tactic, access to a doctrin, super docrtin beats out having a 12" smite. Plus lets not forget that marine players aren't using tacticals, they take intercessors which for 2pts, are a class better at everything.

His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.

Seems to be a strange point considering there is always an army or two, which are as you said it more then a head above other armies. If 8th could have all the various soups, the Inari eldar, and now the IH army, why couldn't it have a very powerful GK at the top for 6 to 12 months? GW does not seem to be interested in toning down the levels of all armies, so accepting your army as a balanced one, is asking for your army to be bad.

But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.

If the power works on vehicles yes. But that is a lot of points put in to a stormraven, and the other tides don't work on vehicles. 2 units of purgators or purfires, or even a mix, jumping out of a raven with 6-8 psilancers could hurt some non heavy armour targets. And one unit can always be buffed with the psilancer stratagem too. It just feels very top heavy and not as simple to use, as say droping a bunch of centurions at short range and letting it reap with everything they have. Am sure people are going to try it out. For sure at worse it is going to give people a few weeks of testing.

The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.

My army is not popular. In fact I think most people are happy that it is not their army, but GK that are weak. GW does nerf armies, but it often happens after a six month or even a year. I would have greatly enjoyed having a top tier army for 6-12 months. People with good armies seemed to have liked it a lot, and I have not seen them being sad about the fact that their army is good. In fact the only time they are unhappy is when other armies become much more powerful or if their armies get nerfed.

GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".

marines came out before, and DG came out at the same time. And both armies had new units and a lot more synergies then the GK codex. At best the GK codex could be described as bland. they took the index, copy pasted it, and just added the stuff all armies had to have.

If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.

I have not seen any eldar or knight players cry out for nerfs when their armies were beating everything left and right. Just like I don't see IH or marine players asking to be nerfed hard. unless someone plays multiple armies, I don't see why someone should be interested in the state of other armies, specialy when other army players aren't interested in the state of your army. At least up until your bad IH suddenly start kicking everyone around.

The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.

Well I heard stories about CWE books always being OP, and Inari were just that. If 2 years ago GK were bad, and stayed bad for 2 years. And Inari were good for more then a year. Why couldn't GK be good now, just like Inari was? It is not like GK were good in prior editions, while from stories told me, eldar were okey in 7th ed.

So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

 Argive wrote:
So no one thinks a "d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

I mean, GW's answer to people finding Leman Russes kind of mediocre in the Index was a literal 100% offensive output increase...

I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.

But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GK MW spam is going to be the counter to it.

 Argive wrote:
So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

Even better. Smite goes on a 5. GK have innate +1. Stratagem for an additional +1.

Brother Captain
6x5 Strikes

6 D2 at 24" on deepstrike on 3s for ~620 points - half a knight in just smites that only fail if they perils.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Probably wont use the botler range power but it's not bad. I am sure there is a better one.

It's prayers that affect psykers, from a psyker, in an army full of psykers, TS will figure out how to use it, even if it's only kind of good.

Also, 30" range character targeting psychic powers would probably come in handy occasionally, so, yeah, you might use it here and there.

Karol wrote:
I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.

But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GK MW spam is going to be the counter to it.

As an aside, and apropos of very little, as a Chaos player, I am dreading - DREADING - dealing with GKs now. My poor daemons.

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.

My army is not popular. In fact I think most people are happy that it is not their army, but GK that are weak. GW does nerf armies, but it often happens after a six month or even a year. I would have greatly enjoyed having a top tier army for 6-12 months. People with good armies seemed to have liked it a lot, and I have not seen them being sad about the fact that their army is good.

I'm sure the majority of the people who's army becomes OP are happy about it, at least to some degree. But with over 20 factions in the game, that means you're pissing off 95% of the playerbase to make less than 5% happy. Doesn't seem like a win to me, overall.

In fact the only time they are unhappy is when other armies become much more powerful or if their armies get nerfed.

That's just projection. I, and many others, have celebrated nerfs to my primary army.

GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".

marines came out before, and DG came out at the same time. And both armies had new units and a lot more synergies then the GK codex. At best the GK codex could be described as bland. they took the index, copy pasted it, and just added the stuff all armies had to have.

Sorry, misremembered. SM did come out first. And CSM came out around the same time as GK (but DG came out later).

If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.

I have not seen any eldar or knight players cry out for nerfs when their armies were beating everything left and right.

Then you were ignoring a lot of posts.

Just like I don't see IH or marine players asking to be nerfed hard. unless someone plays multiple armies, I don't see why someone should be interested in the state of other armies, specialy when other army players aren't interested in the state of your army. At least up until your bad IH suddenly start kicking everyone around.

Some people are more interested in the game and the hobby than they are on their win/loss ratio. There's good reason to want your books balanced, if you care about the game and/or hobby. Even if it tanks your win/loss ratio.

The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.

Well I heard stories about CWE books always being OP, and Inari were just that.

I've heard stories that 9/11 was an inside job. Certainly doesn't make it true. CWE was certainly above average at the time. But that's mostly academic, as Ynnari were that OP.

If 2 years ago GK were bad, and stayed bad for 2 years. And Inari were good for more then a year. Why couldn't GK be good now, just like Inari was?

Because Ynnari being that good was bad for the game. Nothing should be that good. Again, you're trying to make 5% of people happy by making 95% of people unhappy.

It is not like GK were good in prior editions, while from stories told me, eldar were okey in 7th ed.

So? Even if GK were never good (not true - even they have been top dog, although it's been a while), why does it mean we should cause more imbalance?

Eldar were OP. They're the most consistently OP book. The next most-often top-dog book, Space Marines, has a much worse track record. No argument that Eldar have been OP more than GK. But how does GK being OP fix that?

Karol wrote:
I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.

But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GK MW spam is going to be the counter to it.

Dude almost everything deepstrikes and you have brother captains. If you're still going to bitch when GW gives you a ton of buffs then just switch armies. You literally only need one model in the unit to be in smite range.

I don't think PA is going to change the fact that GK is one of the worse armies to fight demons in 8th ed. Unless there is some really hard skew among the other two relics, or the psychic powers.

 Octopoid wrote:

Karol wrote:
I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.

But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GK MW spam is going to be the counter to it.

As an aside, and apropos of very little, as a Chaos player, I am dreading - DREADING - dealing with GKs now. My poor daemons.

Having every GK unit casually blast 4 wound off your units via smite sure is fun!

yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.

T1nk4bell wrote:
Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on

I love that you pointed this out. I was just thinking that it was cool the the psychic army changes doctrines with psychic powers.

I'm not sure how this will all play out. To be honest I'm mostly excited for the psy ammo buff. Psylencers will be S5 d3+1 Dmg

T1nk4bell wrote:
Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on

Or smite the feth out of your opponent, then last power of the phase is making your psilencers do murder in the shooting phase.

Karol wrote:
yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.

It's almost as if you still have the shooting and assault phase

Some of the best chaos options are Daemons not in the Chaos Daemon book (oblits, lord discordant, possessed, PBC), thus not benefiting from the revive strat.

Let's put it in perspective, with the right Tide, a single GK smite kills an entire obliterators, any non-nurgle daemon herald, 2 possessed, 4 (FOUR) warptalons, and 2 smites kill a daemon prince. This is absolutely not trivial.

 greyknight12 wrote:

T1nk4bell wrote:
Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on

Or smite the feth out of your opponent, then last power of the phase is making your psilencers do murder in the shooting phase.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If its going to be indeed that simple to switch these "doctrines/traits" that's disgustingly potent…
they haven't explained it too well in the preview tbh.

 Argive wrote:
So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.

Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp

Sadness...

Karol wrote:
yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.

I'm not sure you understand how effective 4 mortal wounds are from 85 points would be.

Pancakey wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.

Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp

Sadness...

What deadalus said..

Combat squads, minor characters pumping out 2d smites on 4's is mean AF..

Not sure it will suddenly catapult GK into top tier competitive sphere.. but with the points drops etc. it certainly don't seem to shabby.
We are still to find out what else there is in terms of relics, traits etc.

All the people complaining about the buffs and i'm just sitting here staring at my ~20 year old Deathwing models.

MiguelFelstone wrote:
All the people complaining about the buffs and i'm just sitting here staring at my ~20 year old Deathwing models.

Don't worry - you're next.

 Argive wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...

That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..

I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..

It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.

Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp

Sadness...

What deadalus said..

Combat squads, minor characters pumping out 2d smites on 4's is mean AF..

Not sure it will suddenly catapult GK into top tier competitive sphere.. but with the points drops etc. it certainly don't seem to shabby.
We are still to find out what else there is in terms of relics, traits etc.

It’s definitely spicy. Throw in the smite Extendomancer (tm GW) for extra flavor. But will it be enough in a post IH , 12 asscents world?

While I think Karol is being overly pessimistic (which is honestly not surprising) I do think that while the changes are good they aren't good enough to make GK a good army to play. By which I mean they're going to probably end up being a "one good build" army, which is still really sucky for those of use who don't want to play MSU smite spam.

 Sim-Life wrote:
While I think Karol is being overly pessimistic (which is honestly not surprising) I do think that while the changes are good they aren't good enough to make GK a good army to play. By which I mean they're going to probably end up being a "one good build" army, which is still really sucky for those of use who don't want to play MSU smite spam.

Its what every non SM army has to be though... one good build is better than no good buids IMO.
Interesting to see what other strats there are.

Farming 1CP psychic power per turn is pretty good too. That's essentialy cuts the cost by 1 CP for psybolt ammo strat on a GMNDK or a squad of paladins every turn.

These new rules coupled with the recent points drops for most of their infantry (which these rules seem to target) definitely gives them a bump in power. If they get a selection of decent strats that are properly costed they will enter decent mid-tier territory.

 Argive wrote:
Farming 1CP psychic power per turn is pretty good too. That's essentialy cuts the cost by 1 CP for psybolt ammo strat on a GMNDK or a squad of paladins every turn.

I'm pretty excited not to have to run a double battalion, Strikes are def better than they used to be, but for 3 more points i can get double the movement. In a mass stormbolter/smite army i think that's going to be important.

I really hope this helps GK in a meaningful way. Quite excited for this even thought I don't play GK but am an avid fan of the faction. As far as power armour go GK are tolerable along with dark angels

Karol, if the only thing that's going to satisfy you is being able to hand it to Imperial Fists, and Iron Hands, then I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed, and rightly so. No army deserves to be able to beat every opponent for 6 to 12 months, not even Space Marines. Anyone who enjoys being able to beat down on their opponent without a fair and equitable challenge is probably a bit of a spoiled brat. I know it can feel good to opine about things as soon as possible, but why not let the book come out first and try a few games, and if you find that you're still getting smashed by Space Marines, but can have a fun and friendly game against the other 25 factions in the game, then let's call that a success and maybe just avoid playing Space Marines for a while.