Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Burnage wrote:
Maybe GW should hold off on making assumptions about how well Aspect Warriors and Phoenix Lords sell until they actually release them separately outside of a box set with the lowest price to value ratio in recent memory.

That ain't how it works, pal, atleast for GW.

That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Cronch wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.

Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?

At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.

I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.

You do realize that purchasing everything like that is just rewarding bad behaviour. It also exempts GW from any rational agency. Also, you buying everything just signals GW that there are whales among the fish who will buy everything. Whales are good(companies love them because they will literally buy poo if the company made it) but they do not provide a reliable pattern or signs of popularity.

What happened is that GW was testing the upper limit of what they could charge for a box and it failed. That was a learning lesson for GW and boxes after that have remained at a lower price range.

The true test of whether the updated aspects will sell is when they release the single packs at their normal price range.

Cronch wrote:
That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.

Sure, hasn't stopped GW from beeing anticonsumer ever since.
And it's also not the first exemple of a heavy de-investment cycle befalling an faction in 40k, considering SoB which GW was surprised for the demand.

People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.

#kirbysurvivor

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Cronch wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.

Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?

At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.

I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.

truthfully the Ork Buggys, (and from what little we've seen of Ghaz) are such nice looking minis, even if you're not going to USE them, there is something to be said for their qualities as display pieces in a cabinet.

but yeah you're absolutely right, GW goes where the money is. I don't think it's a coincidance that since 8th edition launched GW's focused heavily on new armies. If you accept that Primaris Marines are "de facto" a new army range (it just happens to be one based on and attached to space marines, GW's best selling model range over all) then for the first 2 years of 8th edition the focus has largely been on new armies.

we're seeing some signs that GW is now poised, however, to return their eyes to old time classic armies, with the CSM update. But I bet the folks pushing for a return to the old classic stuff need some sort of solid data to bring to the beancounters.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?

At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.

I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.

okey, but what signals are people suppose to give GW? If you buy stuff, then GW will think that no matter what they do people will buy a product anyway. If they don't buy it, then GW will think that this means there is no money to make at of the frenchise and stop supporting a given faction.

 Eldarsif wrote:
People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.

#kirbysurvivor

Roundtree GW has a better PR department, and toned down the actively hostile anti-consumer practices to merely "normal" anti-consumer behavior we've come to expect from GW over the three decades. It's in no way a consumer-friendly company when it comes to packaging and accessibility.

But wouldn't the difference only be noticed by people that played for more then one edition. I have not played when this kirby was the main man of GW. Why should I care that GW now is better then it was before, specially as I don't know why this kirby guy left.

For a new player w40k is full of traps, bad buys and stuff like we will make you spend so much, that you will never leave out of fear of sunken costs in to the game. I get that GW wants to do money, nothing good about it. But it would be better if they made money on making good stuff, people want, and not acting if w40k was a mobile game.

How is GW packaging unfriendly to consumer?

the put an HQ or unit you may want in to a 280 box full of models you don't want, with no way to get that model outside of that big box.

they make start collecting boxs full with bad units you will never use. Even the big box starters they cut in a such a way, that to use the venguard marines example, as a hero you get that model no one wants or ever uses, but the units like the librarian you have to buy separate. How about oblits being only in big boxs. units like havocks coming with a single of a new weapon, when most marine players are going to have multiples of the other ones. Units not having functioning legal load outs out of the box. Csm bieng split in to half melee or half bolter, so if you want to have 10 bolter or 10 ccw marines you need to buy 2 boxs to get one unit.

melee upgrades for intercessors only as separate kits, but they come with different weapons. So if you want a thunder hammer on your sgts you have to buy two sprues, one for the weapon and another for the shoulder pads.

yeah stuff like that.

 Overread wrote:
How is GW packaging unfriendly to consumer?

Ignoring the most obvious, that being hero units available only in limited run battleboxes, there's also the fact that most units don't come with all the options in box. They occasionally get it right, but more often than not it's 1 weapon of each type, even if the unit can take double of the same. Or packing units in say, 5-man boxes when their size is exactly the same as similar units that have 10-model boxes simply because they're "elite" units, which makes the player pay for abstract utility (liable to change at any moment's notice) vs actual cost.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.

If CWE are popular, their player base has not shown GW such. I'm not saying this boxed set was worth buying by any stretch but the lack of sales should be worrying.

No CWE players I know purchased this set. Many have no desire to get Banshees even when they are released separately because they already have models. They've purchased finecast or metal models years ago to make their squads and they don't need more. Jain Zar isn't spectacular on the table so they have little desire for her either.

The numbers of BotP boxes sitting on shelves seems to confirm this anecdotal evidence.

The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.

So if GW put out a 250$ box set with a resculpted plastic 5-man squad of Kommandos and like...a deff dread, a battlewagon, a squad of nobz, the plastic painboy and a squad of stormboyz you'd rush out and buy it to show what a good little boy you are and how they should make new ork stuff?

I'm sure you ran out and bought at LEAST three of all the new buggies to show your support, no matter what the rules for them were. Because if Banshees aren't squigbuggy levels of bad they're at least boomdakka snazzwagon levels of bad.

we've got four players who play eldar factions. One person bought the new drazar off a scalper on ebay, and everyone else is waiting for the individual kits. That's it. It's just kind of a gak boxset.

You know what they could've done to give people stuff they don't already have AND usable miniatures? Made the Drukhari side of the boxset Haemonculus Coven themed. Haemonculi, Wracks, Talos/Cronos are all in plastic and they've NEVER been in a discounted box. Wracks were out of stock for ages after 8th dropped.

The eldar side is tricker since they have like...six nice looking newer plastic kits total. Most of their range is around the age of the current Cadian sculpts.

 Eldarsif wrote:
People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.

#kirbysurvivor

Oh yeah, its a big difference for sure (a good one)

Okey, but this like some mental trick being played on people that had to buy under this kirby guy, because what GW is doing now can not be called good in any shape or form. I struggle to even imagine how bad it had to be, for people to think what is now is good.

by the way was kirby an actual name or nickname?

2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?

 BroodSpawn wrote:
2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?

There isnt panic. There's a fella stirring the pot for their own amusement.

Ah so standard practice in these parts

 BroodSpawn wrote:
2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?

well some people play a year or so, so telling them that a wait of 6 months is nothing long can be a problem. Even if GW fixs stuff they may no longer be playing. How many bad armies players are there 5-6 years after they became bad, or waiting the same time for a specific model they want.

 Overread wrote:
How is GW packaging unfriendly to consumer?

Laughs in Kellermorph....

 D6Damager wrote:

 Overread wrote:
How is GW packaging unfriendly to consumer?

Laughs in Kellermorph....

Isn't the problem there a lack of packaging?

Yeah when people say packaging I'm thinking the plastic wrapper, card and sprue rather than the actual release rate of models or the number of models or the cost of models.

Cronch wrote:
That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.

I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?

 Eldarsif wrote:
You do realize that purchasing everything like that is just rewarding bad behaviour. It also exempts GW from any rational agency. Also, you buying everything just signals GW that there are whales among the fish who will buy everything. Whales are good(companies love them because they will literally buy poo if the company made it) but they do not provide a reliable pattern or signs of popularity.

If you consider updating models "bad behaviour" then - I guess? As I said, I know no CWE players that are in any particular rush to get Banshees or Jain Zar even when they're released separately. I don't think you understand the "whale" analogy. Whales buy more, yes. They will not buy anything simply because GW make it. I certainly don't. I buy the Ork kits though, because I want GW to make more and it is one of the only ways I can try and encourage them to do so.

What happened is that GW was testing the upper limit of what they could charge for a box and it failed. That was a learning lesson for GW and boxes after that have remained at a lower price range.

Source? Because boxes before were less expensive and there's nothing to say that future boxes won't be just as expensive.

The true test of whether the updated aspects will sell is when they release the single packs at their normal price range.

I suppose, but as I said my anecdotal evidence tells me the answer is 'no', unfortunately (because I'd love to see the CWE line updated - my first army was CWE).

BrianDavion wrote:
truthfully the Ork Buggys, (and from what little we've seen of Ghaz) are such nice looking minis, even if you're not going to USE them, there is something to be said for their qualities as display pieces in a cabinet.

They are beautiful, for sure, but also monopose (which is like heresy for Ork players).

we're seeing some signs that GW is now poised, however, to return their eyes to old time classic armies, with the CSM update. But I bet the folks pushing for a return to the old classic stuff need some sort of solid data to bring to the beancounters.

Which is interesting, right, because Sisters will probably show a resounding success in terms of "returning to old classic stuff" while Eldar is going to look somewhat lacklustre (I guess)?

the_scotsman wrote:
So if GW put out a 250$ box set with a resculpted plastic 5-man squad of Kommandos and like...a deff dread, a battlewagon, a squad of nobz, the plastic painboy and a squad of stormboyz you'd rush out and buy it to show what a good little boy you are and how they should make new ork stuff?

BotP was £140 here which is a much easier pill to swallow, particularly when you add the 10-20% discount from Element Games and the like. I probably would buy the set, yea. Even as I consider this fictional situation though I'm thinking how I'd convert the Deff Dread, the Painboy to be something more to my needs so I suppose the situation isn't quite transferable for an Ork player who can kitbash for days.

I'm sure you ran out and bought at LEAST three of all the new buggies to show your support, no matter what the rules for them were. Because if Banshees aren't squigbuggy levels of bad they're at least boomdakka snazzwagon levels of bad.

I purchased 1 of each excluding the Squigbuggy (but I can't be bothered to write this every time I make the point). I'm currently painting the Boomdakka. I play against Banshees fairly often and I think players hugely underestimate their usefulness in terms of locking the opponent in their deployment zone (but that's not a conversation for this topic, really).

You know what they could've done to give people stuff they don't already have AND usable miniatures? Made the Drukhari side of the boxset Haemonculus Coven themed. Haemonculi, Wracks, Talos/Cronos are all in plastic and they've NEVER been in a discounted box. Wracks were out of stock for ages after 8th dropped..

They could've done a lot of things, but these boxed sets have rarely been about giving players stuff they don't already have and more about bringing in new players to the faction by offering a perceived discount on product.

Listen guys, I'm not saying this is good practice, fair or morally right. What I am saying is that GW is a business interested in making profit above all else (like all other businesses). The only power you have as a consumer to try and encourage GW to make what models you want them to make is to put your money where your mouth is. Other than that you can give them feedback in their community survey and hope they respond. That is it. Also know that your purchases (or lack thereof) are a drop in a massive ocean that likely mean very, very little to GW.

I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?

I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.

It's funny, at my local gw we don't seem to get any marine players except me running my salamander army very occasionally. Well, one guy runs dark angels occasionally.
There's all sorts of chaos, imperium and xenos players but not marines, I know the marine stuff sells well in the store but not to the people who come down to the Thursday night games.

for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.

Instead it’s a neglect where they seem more interested in killing interest than keeping it. And at some point I wonder if they are really as incompetent and disinterested as they often seem for some races rather than hostile to them.
It almost feels like a bit of punishment for not liking yennari as a player base :p

 Dysartes wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:

 Overread wrote:
How is GW packaging unfriendly to consumer?

Laughs in Kellermorph....

Isn't the problem there a lack of packaging?

Even if it was available (which it isn't). It's still a codex unit, packaged in a Kill Team box, with extra stuff most GSC players don't need. Now we have to pay the eBay price for it which is lame. So yeah their packaging stuff nobody wants with a single model that people do want goes well beyond just Eldar.

Cronch wrote:

I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?

I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.

Sure, except no one expects eldar to outsell Marines, and GW knows they don't. (it's why Marines get so many releases) but something to register intreast is definatly a factor.

Big fan of the pretense that either you buy everything that gets released or your Faction gets Squatted.

There's definitely no middle-ground.

If you buy crap they will continue to release crap.

BrianDavion wrote:

Cronch wrote:

I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?

I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.

Sure, except no one expects eldar to outsell Marines, and GW knows they don't. (it's why Marines get so many releases) but something to register intreast is definatly a factor.

It's weird, we put out this highly requested 5-man plastic kit in a 250$ box set and it sold TERRIBLY compared to this squad kit of sisters we put out in an individually packaged box AND compared to the huge army box containing entirely new miniatures!

This must mean people hate Eldar, love Sisters, and love our practice of packaging everything in giant expensive army boxes!

It CAN'T have anything to do with the differences between these two situations!