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 Argive wrote:
what a load of nonsense..

Which similarly priced boxes that have 2x 20 year old kits and less new models have sold better? This price tag was utterly disgusting.. What's even been priced similarly ?
Like everyone apart from you agrees it was ridiculous.

Please enlighten me on how you reached that conclusion concerning the price.

Without the book, GWs site shows the set at $230 US dollars.
Based on prices for the content from their site;
Falcon = $55
Vyper = $35
Scourges = $30
Hellions = $30
Venom = $35
-----------
$185 - you'll notice that each side has about $90 worth of stuff, all available in plastic.

That leaves $45 to cover:
New plastic Jan Zaar,
New plastic Drazhar,
5x new plastic Banshees,
5 x new plastic Incubi
That's 1 new plastic character & 1 new plastic unit for each force.
And you know damned well that once released outside this box that each of those characters will be about $30-$35 apiece & each of those squads will be $45-$50.
But let's be optimistic & take my low end guess for each. That still comes out to another $150 worth of stuff at retail. That you just got for about 1/3 of the cost.

So you pay $230 for about $335 worth of stuff (based on retail prices)
The box is fairly priced based on it's contents. If you're in the market for what this set contains, you get about a $100 deal. AND you can get even more off the price if you shop around....

The problem here is not the actual price. It's the content mix.

But please, do explain how you see an issue with the price. Not the content mix, just the actual pricing.

I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?

Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)

As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.

If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.

Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..

So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.

 Argive wrote:
I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?

Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)

As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.

If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.

Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..

So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.

Just to quote you and say you're right on. It isn't a savings at all, if the items offered aren't worth it in the first place and if you don't play both armies especially and can't find someone to take the half you don't use. Ignoring the fact I doubt many people have needed most of these models for quite some time it is cold comfort to say " But I save so much on all this stuff I don't want or need ! " It's a lame sales tactic to move models that are old in some cases and not used in others or already sold most all they would sell in the best circumstance. It's like buying a value meal just for the burger when you don't want or will just toss the other elements with it, it isn't a savings if the other parts are useless to you. I fear our compatriot who is very thrilled with the savings fails to acknowledge that fact that its only a savings in the most narrow of circumstances and to the most selective of customers and that is why this " golden goose " lay unwanted and unloved.

The actual worth of the offered items aren't what GW charge for them. They are a factor of usefulness, availability from other means and straight quality of the offered items. I feel like some people get way too hung up on " But GW says its worth this. " It's a buyers market, if they are useless, they aren't worth anything to most players much less the bloated jacked up prices of GWs full retail.

True. A lot of the start collecting sets are like that. You get some model for free, but you wouldn't want that model in the first place. How many people want a termintor armoured BA captin or a Venguard Primaris Lt.?

Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Ah the age old self fulfilling prophecy


"GW won't release a new kit for X because it doesn't sell, but it doesn't sell because the kit is so old so they won't release an update but no one is buying it because it is so old etc"

And around and around we go!

It’s quite literally the opposite of that.

GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Your reasoning is so silly to me. So, to show GW they should make more eldars, we should buy every single thing they make no matter how awful or poorly done they handle it ? How then do you ever let them know they are screwing things up ? You can't keep rewarding crap offerings. GW is pretty stupid sometimes but I even credit them with more brains to just go " Hurr Durr, our crap box is selling badly, guess people don't like Eldars no more ! Shut it down ! " Your theory gives absolutely no way for them to ever be shown how to better their offerings or change for the good of the consumer and not the betterment of their own greed. Why should anyone feel beholden to support them in the hopes they eventually give you things that will finally be good and well thought it because if we don't support poor practices they'll just send us to bed without dinner ?

GW should spend time to look at it from a sellers point of view, it's a buyers market, if you're not offering things worth buying, or holding things that would sell hostage behind stuff that won't move, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I'm not a marketing guru here but this feels super poorly handled and even before the box dropped it had such lukewarm reception you should smell the flop from here, rich and ripe as a meadow muffin.

People make it sound like GW have committed some heinous sin including the units they did in BotP. The Vyper is a decent, plastic sculpt, despite its age. The Falcon is also plastic and though it’s no Night Spinner/Prism it can easily be converted. Speaking of - I’ve also seen excellent Vyper conversions.

I get it, we all want the best options in a boxed set but I think we also know that’s never going to happen. Perhaps Banshees and Incubi etc shouldn’t have been introduced in a boxed set. The fact is they were. GW probably thought there was enough market to justify it. The way the box has flopped will indicate to them otherwise. BotP itself doesn’t seem too different to any other box. It offers similar savings to all other boxes I’ve seen recently. The complaint is that it offers units people already own that aren’t particularly competitive. Just like every other box.

Again - I’m not trying to blame Eldar players particularly. I just don’t think GW will look inward and think ‘perhaps we fethed up’ - I believe they will instead think ‘the market for new Aspect Warriors and re-imagined Dark Eldar sculpts is small and/or in decline’. I’m assuming this isn’t the message players of those factions wanted to give.

why couldnt the box set be 2 HQs and 1-2 of each unit?
Why does it have to have the book inside and ton of models no one would want. Not the veteran players, because they already have most of those, and not the new players, because new players don't want to experiment with bad models or models they can't make in to a single detachment in case of the DE units.

GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.

So people should have bought stuff they do not want to buy? For GW this would be a clear sign of people being okey with what they did, and the next box sets would be just like that. It would be like apple products that no one wants to buy.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Ah the age old self fulfilling prophecy


"GW won't release a new kit for X because it doesn't sell, but it doesn't sell because the kit is so old so they won't release an update but no one is buying it because it is so old etc"

And around and around we go!

It’s quite literally the opposite of that.

GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Your reasoning is so silly to me. So, to show GW they should make more eldars, we should buy every single thing they make no matter how awful or poorly done they handle it ? How then do you ever let them know they are screwing things up ? You can't keep rewarding crap offerings. GW is pretty stupid sometimes but I even credit them with more brains to just go " Hurr Durr, our crap box is selling badly, guess people don't like Eldars no more ! Shut it down ! " Your theory gives absolutely no way for them to ever be shown how to better their offerings or change for the good of the consumer and not the betterment of their own greed. Why should anyone feel beholden to support them in the hopes they eventually give you things that will finally be good and well thought it because if we don't support poor practices they'll just send us to bed without dinner ?

GW should spend time to look at it from a sellers point of view, it's a buyers market, if you're not offering things worth buying, or holding things that would sell hostage behind stuff that won't move, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I'm not a marketing guru here but this feels super poorly handled and even before the box dropped it had such lukewarm reception you should smell the flop from here, rich and ripe as a meadow muffin.

People make it sound like GW have committed some heinous sin including the units they did in BotP. The Vyper is a decent, plastic sculpt, despite its age. The Falcon is also plastic and though it’s no Night Spinner/Prism it can easily be converted. Speaking of - I’ve also seen excellent Vyper conversions.

I get it, we all want the best options in a boxed set but I think we also know that’s never going to happen. Perhaps Banshees and Incubi etc shouldn’t have been introduced in a boxed set. The fact is they were. GW probably thought there was enough market to justify it. The way the box has flopped will indicate to them otherwise. BotP itself doesn’t seem too different to any other box. It offers similar savings to all other boxes I’ve seen recently. The complaint is that it offers units people already own that aren’t particularly competitive. Just like every other box.

Again - I’m not trying to blame Eldar players particularly. I just don’t think GW will look inward and think ‘perhaps we fethed up’ - I believe they will instead think ‘the market for new Aspect Warriors and re-imagined Dark Eldar sculpts is small and/or in decline’. I’m assuming this isn’t the message players of those factions wanted to give.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I don't give a wooden penny about where GW chooses to look for blame. If they can't realize they messed up and instead think " No, it's the customers that are out of touch. " They are quite a dumb company. You can't properly gauge a metric of what people want by holding models they may buy behind also having to buy lots of things they may already have/not need/are just bad.

Old players, don't need them, find no savings in the offerings as they're just buying things they have plenty of and still no use for. New players aren't going to find the use in the contents as they don't want to waste money on units that are not ideal when it costs so much to buy each unit as is and some players won't even suggest sub par units to new players period. No one twisted their arm to make them bloat the box up so much the cost would be so high and make people go, eh, maybe not. I doubt people would care about some models they don't want but it's mostly a box of units no one wants or has tons of already and/or can get dirt cheap else where.

The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use. That makes the cost more of an issue. Trying to justify by the GW cost to buy full retail doesn't make it somehow more appealing. I also say not every box offers such a poor selection. Comparing it to the split halves of shadowspear those halves come in cheaper, have options people will actually use and/or useful choices or choices they can't get anywhere else for yet again a much lower cost.

Assuming the company will blame the customers is quite a strange mentality to have, as the customers we have the power to alter company direction in their selling choices. They aren't our dealer and if we don't comply to whatever they do they'll cut us off and we'll go into pains from lack of plastic. It's and I'll say this again, a buyers market, they can shape up their offerings and put out things in cost and quantity we want or we won't buy it and it'll languish on the shelf that is on them. No customer should feel they need to support crap effort just for fear of lacking support. Without our money, they don't exist, without them we will still somehow go on lets not ever get that mixed up.

Maybe this situation shows why primaris happened?
Old players aren't that desperate to pick up rescuplts but have to buy new units.
I'm sure new aspect units would have driven sales of the box much better even if it means older sculpts go untouched.

I know I would have buy new banshee models, lord would have been a bonus that depend on price.
But I skipped this box entirely.

I still feel like someone just had a Ynarri plan and really stuffed it up.

I would have picked up the Dark Eldar stuff but, I don't play Eldar and the only player I know who does doesn't need those models at all. To clear it up, I mean the NEW Dark Eldar stuff, as the other units I have plenty of but Drazhar I don't have and the incubi I'd have picked up just because I like them.

ccs wrote:
[
But please, do explain how you see an issue with the price. Not the content mix, just the actual pricing.

The box was pricier than any previous battlebox, while not offering significantly larger AMOUNT of models included. It had a low perceived value, regardless of official prices of models included. Even if all the models were brand new, I suspect it'd still sell worse than other boxes for that simple reason, the price point was above the "pain point" many people have for hobby purchases.

as someone that maybee wanted to start ynaari and even convert draazhar and etc. but allready had armies and experience in 40k:

Too pricy, other battleboaxes indeed gave you an similar ammount of units for less.
Poor model choices: For a new army the core should be decent of it, this box offeed no decent core according to knive ear budies i have and tactia / data, for the record i am NOT a competitive player but i want to stand a fighting chance in a heavily mixed FLG environment. so double no.
Poor model content: Alot of the kit in there is just OLD plastic, that i can buy if i choose vastly cheaper in the second hand market.


These are the 3 reasons i didn't buy the box.

Hellebore wrote:
All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.

So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false

since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.

Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.

I can, Eldar were a real army for the last 30 years, SoB were as much of a curioso as chaos dwarfs were.

Cronch wrote:
I can, Eldar were a real army for the last 30 years, SoB were as much of a curioso as chaos dwarfs were.

in other words, you're not intreasted in one army so they don't count? ya know I'm not a eldar fan but I'd not begrudge them a new army.what is it with the xenos player entitlement this way you sometimes see?

Apple fox wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.

except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.

here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?

beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.

I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.

they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons

First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.

Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.

I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic de HQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.

I don't think saying Sisters didn't need an update is a good angle, saying Marines haven't needed all the love for awhile now is pretty right on however.

In all honesty, if Sisters players should feel snubbed it should be that genestealer cults and Ad mech got armies out before they ever got updated. I wondered at that point if sisters would ever be touched on or squatted outright.

Cronch wrote:
I can, Eldar were a real army for the last 30 years, SoB were as much of a curioso as chaos dwarfs were.

Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.

Cronch wrote:
Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.

So the oldest remaining faction, that never got supported due to a desinvestment cycle, does not deserve a facelift, but vice versa Eldar complain about a mostly plastic and failcast range that is significantly younger in most cases, has partially the same issues but can't allow that to happen?

Mate, you seriously have wierd preferences.


BE happy because this indicates that at some point you will maybee see the deserved update, but don't be envious . That is not healthy.

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.

except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.

here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?

beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.

I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.

they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons

First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.

Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.

I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic de HQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.

Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.

When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.

Cronch wrote:
Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.

Sisters are about as similar to current marines as fire dragons are. I mean, they both have power armor, right?

 Argive wrote:
I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?

Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)

As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.

If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.

Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..

So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.

You know, you & I aren't talking about the same thing. At all.

As for pulling #s out of thin air? Nope.
The #s I listed come from https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000
The #s for Zar, Drazhar, the Banshees, & the Incubi I based upon looking at similar plastic kits on the same site.

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.

except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.

here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?

beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.

I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.

they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons

First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.

Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.

I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic de HQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.

Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.

When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.

I can agree with that. Though my point was more: They were doing this, in 7th. In 8th all Eldar have had is eldrad, spiritseer, and now jain and the banshees. I guess there was that made to order window where they did 8th ed rules for the bonesinger and rereleased the awesome RT farseer sculpt.

They really really really need to give a refresh to some of the oldest troop kits IMO. I've never met an eldar player who isn't trying to actively avoid guardians, and guardsmen and 'gants are just as bad. Nothing dissuades someone from picking a faction up more than their basic troop being 25 years old.

the_scotsman wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.

Sisters are about as similar to current marines as fire dragons are. I mean, they both have power armor, right?

I think nether army should have been left in this state for so long :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.

except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.

here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?

beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.

I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.

they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons

First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.

Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.

I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic de HQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.

Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.

When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.

I can agree with that. Though my point was more: They were doing this, in 7th. In 8th all Eldar have had is eldrad, spiritseer, and now jain and the banshees. I guess there was that made to order window where they did 8th ed rules for the bonesinger and rereleased the awesome RT farseer sculpt.

They really really really need to give a refresh to some of the oldest troop kits IMO. I've never met an eldar player who isn't trying to actively avoid guardians, and guardsmen and 'gants are just as bad. Nothing dissuades someone from picking a faction up more than their basic troop being 25 years old.

This is soo true, I avoid guardians. And even the dire avengers kits as much as I can, my guard are entirely none GW where I can now. Even my tau I at the stage where I just look for alternatives when I can.

Eldrad is wrong craftworld for me, and spirit seer I do not even think needed a model and would have rather get Iyanna, or a charecter box for the craftworlds.
I also really want more female representation in the eldar range, so it sucks to ignore this box. But I do not want to reward what I consider bad releases.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.

If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?

You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.

If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?

You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.

There could be a lot of hidden reasons for one box to sell over another, it could even be that for a lot of players the box is spending. $390(gw store price) for 5 models, half a unit and a charecter. And only the banshees I think are really good, Jain zar I really think could have been better. Dark eldar side I would need to offload which is time and effort.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.

If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?

You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.

....it was also like, half the price IIRC. and didn't include another faction you probably don't play.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.

Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.

So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.

Also, all you folks advocating for 3rd party and resell, the shipping costs are through the roof. It's common to see a mini for $10 with a $30 shipping charge. With GW product out of the box, I can get it at my FLGS without shipping, at a discount over gw prices and never worry about broken models, missing pieces, dealing with someone else's partial paint job, etc.

As mentioned before, the new plastic will be released as separates, probably in the 4th quarter of 2020, but sooner if there are other releases from either range that the can be used as hype builders, or if either faction gets their 2.0 dex. When that happens, the new plastics will sell- I will certainly buy them if I haven't bought BotP by then. I want it, but there's other stuff I want more. The GSC start collecting box basically gives you a free Ridgerunner, and Sisters are my primary army, so two boxes of penitent engines are probably my next purchase.

Also, as for debates about price vs value, my suggestion is that if you believe these models are not good enough in game terms to justify the price tag, that's fine. Just argue that. You'll find lots of people who back you up. Heck, I wouldn't have bothered pricing out the units to demonstrate the savings if you had just said what you meant, because your argument about model selection is valid. The argument about cost, however, is not; this box offers a minimum 30% savings off the cost of individual kits. Period.