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PenitentJake wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.

Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.

When they were initially introduced, it was marketed not just for people to start an army but as a way to get items for cheaper.

So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.

"Through the lens of the intended audience", the Dominus was packaged in to remove value from the box. It is Start Collecting: Skitarii, not AdMech.

Regarding the idea of characters being expensive, surely this is only the case because GW insists on making overly-elaborate, monopose crap?

It seems for example that they could easily make a DE Trueborn box that also contained accessories for upgrading one or more models to an Archon or Dracon. The DE range is already largely interchangeable and it really doesn't seem that hard to add in a few attachable capes, some more elaborate heads/helmets etc.

This way, the box could pull double-duty - serving as both a source of Archons/Dracons and also a source of Trueborn.

They could also do something similar with Scourge kits, Hellion kits, Reaver kits etc.

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding the idea of characters being expensive, surely this is only the case because GW insists on making overly-elaborate, monopose crap?

It seems for example that they could easily make a DE Trueborn box that also contained accessories for upgrading one or more models to an Archon or Dracon. The DE range is already largely interchangeable and it really doesn't seem that hard to add in a few attachable capes, some more elaborate heads/helmets etc.

This way, the box could pull double-duty - serving as both a source of Archons/Dracons and also a source of Trueborn.

They could also do something similar with Scourge kits, Hellion kits, Reaver kits etc.

This i think would be the way to go, a lot of characters in eldar would serve better as not true centre peace models. Take a full stick out of warmachines bag and have characters that tie into others, but also build or can build generic options.
Say a named spirit sear, And a unit of special wraithguard that can be taken with her. That also builds a generic farseer and expand the options to wriathguard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.

Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.

When they were initially introduced, it was marketed not just for people to start an army but as a way to get items for cheaper.

So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.

"Through the lens of the intended audience", the Dominus was packaged in to remove value from the box. It is Start Collecting: Skitarii, not AdMech.

I'm sure there was a line in the press release about how even if you already had an army, there was still value in getting the box. That's not really the same as marketing as a way to get items at a lower cost. To do that, you would call it a value box. Sorry, but naming products really and truly is the first step in any marketing campaign.

As for the argument about Skitarii, here's the flaw in that: every detachment in 40k needs an HQ choice. There are no Skitarii HQ choices. Nor are there even rules for fielding Skitarri in detachments without an HQ like there are for Sisters of Silence. What this means, is that there is literally no such thing as a skitarii army.

Now look, I'm not saying people don't have some valuable points- really, I shouldn't even be arguing any of this, because my arguments for the past few posts have not about gw at all. They have been about semantics. And no amount of arguing about gw will ever change an argument about semantics, just as no argument about semantics actually has much to say about GW. I probably should just let you all fight about GW without trying to worry about whether you do so effectively.

So consider me out. BotP has the highest dollar value per model in the entire history of GW and Start Collecting Boxes are all made for veteran players. /S

You do know that when the Skitarii Start Collecting set first dropped, they didn't require an HQ?

The Skitarii Maniple Force Organization Chart that they had specifically had 0 HQ choices, but allowed for you to nominate a Princeps or Alpha as your Warlord.
They had to create a formation to allow for the Start Collecting box to be fieldable.

Remember that the Dominus, additionally, was the only HQ that the Cult Mechanicus had at that time(and one of the heftier ones in terms of price at his MSRP of $36USD). It wasn't until "Agents of the Imperium" that the Enginseer was brought in, and it wasn't until Gathering Storm that Cawl showed up.

BrianDavion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.

So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false

since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.

Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.

The comment is true of all non marine factions and then non imperial factions.

And it was in response to all these people that wheel out tired arguments about GWs capacity while actively ignoring the sheer quantity of material produced for marines and imperial armies in general. They're all from the same faction army anyway, or you couldn't make combined armies with the keyword imperial. If nothing else says that xenos armies are artificially categorised and lumped together, it's the fact that there is no xenos keyword. You can take armies of any imperial force because they're all overly detailed looks at tiny compartments of the imperial armed forces, but you can't take Orks, nids and Eldar together because they are themselves all separate factions.

The xenos descriptor is actually the 'not imperial or chaos' descriptor.

Hellebore wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.

So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false

since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.

Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.

The comment is true of all non marine factions and then non imperial factions.

And it was in response to all these people that wheel out tired arguments about GWs capacity while actively ignoring the sheer quantity of material produced for marines and imperial armies in general. They're all from the same faction army anyway, or you couldn't make combined armies with the keyword imperial. If nothing else says that xenos armies are artificially categorised and lumped together, it's the fact that there is no xenos keyword. You can take armies of any imperial force because they're all overly detailed looks at tiny compartments of the imperial armed forces, but you can't take Orks, nids and Eldar together because they are themselves all separate factions.

The xenos descriptor is actually the 'not imperial or chaos' descriptor.

Capabiltiy is there!
Theres new kits released every other day for some random specialist off shoot game. I find it bizarre they cant release updates for 40k factions where I suspect more total collectors in a single 40k faction like IG or harlequins than total amount of people playing blood bowl or Adeptus titanichus...

Obviously I really don't know what the numbers are for these sales no one outside of GW really knows. But any game system revolves around building a community.
I can only speak anecdotally and say far more people play IG, necrons, or harlequins factions in my local area then there are total people who play beastgrave or whatever its called.
But they have absolutely cranked up their prodct release to 12... However most of it is not going into 40k factions that need models. It certainly seems like whipping it out upwind and pissing on your flagship brand's often almost fanatical customer base.

PenitentJake wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.

Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.

So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.

Also, all you folks advocating for 3rd party and resell, the shipping costs are through the roof. It's common to see a mini for $10 with a $30 shipping charge. With GW product out of the box, I can get it at my FLGS without shipping, at a discount over gw prices and never worry about broken models, missing pieces, dealing with someone else's partial paint job, etc.

As mentioned before, the new plastic will be released as separates, probably in the 4th quarter of 2020, but sooner if there are other releases from either range that the can be used as hype builders, or if either faction gets their 2.0 dex. When that happens, the new plastics will sell- I will certainly buy them if I haven't bought BotP by then. I want it, but there's other stuff I want more. The GSC start collecting box basically gives you a free Ridgerunner, and Sisters are my primary army, so two boxes of penitent engines are probably my next purchase.

Also, as for debates about price vs value, my suggestion is that if you believe these models are not good enough in game terms to justify the price tag, that's fine. Just argue that. You'll find lots of people who back you up. Heck, I wouldn't have bothered pricing out the units to demonstrate the savings if you had just said what you meant, because your argument about model selection is valid. The argument about cost, however, is not; this box offers a minimum 30% savings off the cost of individual kits. Period.

Maybe you just aren't picking up what I'm putting down, I've said the models aren't worth the cost for a myriad of reasons. As well if you are paying 30 for shipping on a 10 item, that's a you problem and not a normality as I assure you most I know can get shipping pretty reasonable and still get the items much much cheaper. You all love to cherry pick reasons and argue one this one or that one but not on all of them. Just because people want to ignore vast swaths of my argument doesn't make your counter point anymore effective.

As for the start collecting reasoning, they put the tech priest dominius in just about everything for Ad mech, where the new tech priest model could also be used in some cases but isn't because they keep trying to shift just the dominus. The Guard box could have a command squad, the tempestus can make HQs out of the normal box, there isn't any reason to keep shoving Commissars in everything and it makes little fiscal sense to just sell one box of these sets to one person a piece but some of the items offer such false value that it promises that will happen.

Sometimes though the draw is high enough to make you accept the crap value of some choices, like the foregebane I had someone in mind for the necron half and the tiny knights were enough of a prime choice to make that box worth it to me then and I imagine a number of others and that was more a reinforcement group than a starter collection. I can agree some boxes are better than others but most have a unit or choice that is a false value option or a negative value as you just don't need them and they could put some variety in those like boxes.

Edit: As well yes, they were touted for vets as well as newbies when the boxes came out and the Dominus wasn't even fieldable with Skittari when the box came out they had to make it a formation to make it legal to even use it with the other items in it as some wise poster already pointed out.

I know its cool to cheery pick from history and just ignore facts that are inconvenient to an argument but GW has operated in certain ways for awhile, just saying " but it's only meant for new people ! " despite the name is simply silly. The name change was done simply to entice new players but all of those boxes were just faction boxes before they became " Start Collecting " that name change didn't do anything to alter the original dual intent of the offering.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.

If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?

You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.

Good Lord, are you still on about this?

Look, just because you Ork players have some sort of financial martyr thing going on & will buy stuff you neither like, want, nor need doesn't mean that others must follow suite & fork over $ for models they're not interested in for whatever reason.

FWIW, the Astra Militarum SC! box is still cheaper than buying the components separately, even if you have absolutely no use for the Commissar.

Three Leman Russ, three Infantry Squads and a Heavy Weapon Team costs $365 (exc. HST) bought separately. Three SC! boxes is $330 (exc. HST).

Ok ? Still doesn't change the fact the commissar is a useless choice and they'd be better served with a command squad in the box. If I recall the cost is about the same for both, but one is useless and one is useful. I don't think its a mystery why the commissar is in those boxes, it's just to get rid of them and make you still need to buy the command squad boxes that are necessary to make the other units worth it.

Not even going into the fact the heavy weapon teams are very over costed, money wise.

As well, no guard player has really any use for commissars, I say this sadly as I have tons but even new players just end up running him as a commander or not at all as they find all too soon how useless they are.

Taking that into account, you're not really saving much, if anything as to make those buys worthwhile you need to spend all the savings and then some more to buy the items you actually need.

When I started with guard the SC box was the old Leman russ, 20 infantry and 1 3 base heavy weapon squad, it was discounted and all of the items were useful. Later down the road they came with now this is just off the top of my head here but 1 command squad box, 1 sentinel, 20 troops and 3 base heavy weapon squad, so for the Russ you got the command squad and sentinel, money wise it ended up around the same discount though the old box was useful with everything and this one Sentinels are meh. The current box a whole 10 men, 1 heavy weapon base, 1 Leman Russ and an utterly useless commissar.

The savings has only fallen into the pooper and what adds to it is the bloated cost of the same kits they used to cost 35 USD for 20, the same exact molds that are now 35 for 10, and the command squad that used to be 25 is now 35.

So yeah, you save some cash, but thats only if you over look how the same exact models have increased 33 percent thereabouts for no real reason and then they still toss in a useless model to boot, when they could easily throw in the command squad and make it sting less.

Sorry for he ramble, I just have to point out GW isn't really doing anyone any favors and have only gotten more greedy as time goes on, hard to believe I know. The BotP was just the most greedy money grab they'd done in awhile and frankly I'm actually proud the eldar player base didn't reward them for it.

yes the comissar is crap right now but two eyars ago Comissars where insanely good. the value of a unit changes with editions and all GW isn't going to change up a SC box everytime the compeitive meta changes just to provide the best deal to the "meta chasers"