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Based on the old armor rules Leman Russ is a light tank, the predator had nearly the same stats.

How would gw explain the guard suddenly having a new tank?

Beyond "Cawl made it " of course.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
How would gw explain the guard suddenly having a new tank?

Beyond "Cawl made it " of course.

The same way they did the Taurox?

 ImperialArmy wrote:
Based on the old armor rules Leman Russ is a light tank, the predator had nearly the same stats.

How old? I don't ever remember it being "Light", and it was AV14 as long as I remember. As of 5th it was 14/13/10 compared to a Predator's 13/11/10, so it's not really nearly the same stats, or at least it's also "nearly the same stats" as a Land Raider.


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 Stormonu wrote:
Considering anyone and their brother can duff up new models that could be used as guardsmen, don’t expect GW to look to expand or redo the line - they’re more likely to drop the line since its pretty much impossible to copyright anything they design for it.

However, I’ve been looking for something to do non-Mongolian rough riders, and I’d very much like either motorcycle riders or beast riders to replace them - maybe even scavenge the iron horses Admech may soon get.

I would also like to see something akin to an M8 Greyhound - a six-wheeled vehicle with an Autocannon or Heavy Stubber on it.

I’d also like to see two tanks - a light tank (ala a WW2 Stuart or Vietnam wreath Sheridan) and a tank that falls in the bracket between a Leman Russ and a Baneblade - a Heavy tank if you will to the Leman Russ medium tank and the Baneblade Superheavy.

And a way out there request would be to bring beastman back as a viable option for the Guard.

Would light and heavy be the Hellhound and the Marcharius, respectively?


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 G00fySmiley wrote:
I want them to go deeper into the scifi armor. I like cadians and I like the tempestus scions. but give me something armored something akin to the arbites enforcer partol armor from necromunda not space marine level of crazy big armor but actual decent lookgin carapace stuff... also bring back caraspace as an option

I like the current look of their armor. It looks sci-fi enough, but also like cheap.

I think models with outfits that look more modern would be pretty cool, though, with like plate-carrier vests with a bunch of pockets. Definitely a cooler option for vets and stormtroopers than the new scions.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 ImperialArmy wrote:
Based on the old armor rules Leman Russ is a light tank, the predator had nearly the same stats.

How old? I don't ever remember it being "Light", and it was AV14 as long as I remember. As of 5th it was 14/13/10 compared to a Predator's 13/11/10, so it's not really nearly the same stats, or at least it's also "nearly the same stats" as a Land Raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Considering anyone and their brother can duff up new models that could be used as guardsmen, don’t expect GW to look to expand or redo the line - they’re more likely to drop the line since its pretty much impossible to copyright anything they design for it.

However, I’ve been looking for something to do non-Mongolian rough riders, and I’d very much like either motorcycle riders or beast riders to replace them - maybe even scavenge the iron horses Admech may soon get.

I would also like to see something akin to an M8 Greyhound - a six-wheeled vehicle with an Autocannon or Heavy Stubber on it.

I’d also like to see two tanks - a light tank (ala a WW2 Stuart or Vietnam wreath Sheridan) and a tank that falls in the bracket between a Leman Russ and a Baneblade - a Heavy tank if you will to the Leman Russ medium tank and the Baneblade Superheavy.

And a way out there request would be to bring beastman back as a viable option for the Guard.

Would light and heavy be the Hellhound and the Marcharius, respectively?
.

Well, the Hellhound strikes me more more as a “what if we turned a Bradley AFV into a zippo?”, and the Marcharius is Forgeworld - I’d rather a model I can get at the FLGS on my discount instead of the jacked-up prices of FW. Statwise, they may fit, but certainly not aesthetically.

 Stormonu wrote:
Considering anyone and their brother can duff up new models that could be used as guardsmen, don’t expect GW to look to expand or redo the line - they’re more likely to drop the line since its pretty much impossible to copyright anything they design for it.

That's why I thought of Necromunda gangs. Technically any near future gang model can work for Necro, but the gangs have been updated for the 2010s-20s while still being clearly heirs to the originals. (Except the Delaque, but I love both old and new Delaque so that's OK)

Taking the recognizable regiments and updating them would be a way to create something distinct but recognizable. The regiments from the 90s may be OOP but they still appear in art and fiction, even their names are alive in the paint ranges.

The plastic Catachans looked pretty much like the metals, but they had to, since there were no plastic officers or heavy weapons when they came out. But the Cadians were completely reimagined from the metals, which is a shame since I love the metal Cadians. Bascialy the only thing they have in common is is they both have helmets.

So I would not expect plastic Valhallans to look exactly like the metals nor like WWII Russians, but to be some sort of gothic sci fi winter troops.

Yeah sure with digital sculpts and 3D printing they will be knock offs out there within a month, but that's true for any army GW might do.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
How would gw explain the guard suddenly having a new tank?

Beyond "Cawl made it " of course.

They could go with a new, old tank; similar to to the malcador tanks from FW. Due to the demands of the war front, those old moth balled tanks are pulled out of storage. Maybe Guilliman forces the Ad Mech to crack open someof their old vaults.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
How would gw explain the guard suddenly having a new tank?

Beyond "Cawl made it " of course.

They could go with a new, old tank; similar to to the malcador tanks from FW. Due to the demands of the war front, those old moth balled tanks are pulled out of storage. Maybe Guilliman forces the Ad Mech to crack open someof their old vaults.

That could work. As long as it gets better rules than the current malcador.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
How would gw explain the guard suddenly having a new tank?

Beyond "Cawl made it " of course.

They could go with a new, old tank; similar to to the malcador tanks from FW. Due to the demands of the war front, those old moth balled tanks are pulled out of storage. Maybe Guilliman forces the Ad Mech to crack open someof their old vaults.

It wouldn't be unheard of. The Carnodon was introduced that way recently, as having been brought back out of mothball because there just wasn't enough Leman Russ production to meet warzone demands.

There's also as a converted obsolete tank as an option, like the Jagdpanzer 38t and SU-76, which would be pretty cool.

You can also just have "this is a new tank", and it doesn't have to be from Cawl. Several Leman Russ variants were developed in the span of "recently" to meet shortfalls in production of established variants [Notably, the Thunderer for the Destroyer, the Annihilator for the Vanquisher, and at one time IIRC the Conqueror for the Battle Tank]. Several Baneblade variants are also not STC, and are novel developments by forge worlds that can't produce enough Volcano Cannons given sanction by the AdMech. The Razorback was also developed in like M36.

Stormonu wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Would light and heavy be the Hellhound and the Marcharius, respectively?
.

Well, the Hellhound strikes me more more as a “what if we turned a Bradley AFV into a zippo?”, and the Marcharius is Forgeworld - I’d rather a model I can get at the FLGS on my discount instead of the jacked-up prices of FW. Statwise, they may fit, but certainly not aesthetically.

I think the Marcharius aesthetic is coherent with the rest of the guard [unlike the Carnodon], but it is expensive and very bad.

As for the Hellhound & it's variants, they're not still infantry fighting vehicles, so I guess they're light tanks.



As a random observation: the Basilisk now canonically predates the development of the Chimera. [The Basilisk was in service in it's current form in the Space Marine Legions contemporaneously with the Aurox, which would be replaced by the superior Chimera when it was developed] I guess that means somebody decided that a Basilisk without it's gun would be a pretty good troop carrier, took off the gun and enclosed it to make the Chimera.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

As a random observation: the Basilisk now canonically predates the development of the Chimera. [The Basilisk was in service in it's current form in the Space Marine Legions contemporaneously with the Aurox, which would be replaced by the superior Chimera when it was developed] I guess that means somebody decided that a Basilisk without it's gun would be a pretty good troop carrier, took off the gun and enclosed it to make the Chimera.

Hehe. This is in line with Imperial thinking: "Guns first, care for human lives second."

Since we're wishlisting I'd like to add in Command light tanks and actual command chimeras (for artillery).

A whole lot of wishlisting but Cadians aren’t going anywhere since GW made genecult conversion kits specifically using Cadian spruces.
Any new plastic regiment will have loads of lead up marketing until release not quite sisters of battle but like primaris 7th edition revamp type marketing. It’s to big of a project and cost. My guess would be over the top greatcoat like redesigned steel legion all Chem up with a new story line explaining why.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

As a random observation: the Basilisk now canonically predates the development of the Chimera. [The Basilisk was in service in mostly it's current form in the Space Marine Legions contemporaneously with the Aurox, which would be replaced by the superior Chimera when it was developed] I guess that means somebody decided that a Basilisk without it's gun would be a pretty good troop carrier, took off the gun and enclosed it to make the Chimera.

Hehe. This is in line with Imperial thinking: "Guns first, care for human lives second."

When you put it that way, it makes sense now! Definitely Imperial thinking.

Also, more "how did the development go", courtesy of Forge World:
First. there was the Basilisk, and it was available to the Space Marine Legions. It looked basically like the one we have today, but with a more complicated gun shield that also provided side protection to the gun crew and a couple of small chassis alternations. This Basilisk seems to be the original manufacture.
Then, as the Great Crusade grew, it became apparent that the Space Marines couldn't do everything, and the Imperalis Auxilia was formed. The Imperalis Auxilia needed tanks and artillery, and received the Aurox and Carnodon. At some point, they also had Basilisks. But this Basilisk wasn't the same as the one already in service, this one was on a Leman Russ chassis.
Then, some time later, all those Leman Russ Basilisks went away and were replaced with the original design Basilisk, but with some simplified components like the shield and HB mount to streamline production for the IG's requirements.
Some time later, field modifications introduced the fully enclosed Armageddon pattern and re-introduced the side protection on the Vanaheim pattern, but these didn't really gain widespread acceptance, presumably because of the added complexity.

This might give us an insight into a whole development timeline of the IG's equipment, at least until Forgeworld makes a new model and messes it up again.
First there was the Basilisk, and it belonged to the Space Marines
Then there was the Aurox and Carnodon, and belonged to the proto-Guard
Then, the Leman Russ was developed. Presumably, the Imperium liked it so much, and since they planned to phase out all the Carnodons, they decided to also make the Imperialis Auxilia's new artillery tank share the chassis for parts compatibility and allow more efficient maintainence and manufacture. But they didn't decide to make a Leman Russ chassis APC while composing this full vehicle family, requiring to some degree that the Carnodon and Aurox family remain in production [also, the prodigious quantity already out there remaining in service and still needing spare parts], if at a reduced rate. Maybe the Leman Russ just couldn't be made into a satisfactory APC.
Then the Great Crusade ended, and the Horus Heresy began and ended. Major reorganizations occurred. Presumably, Aurox production ceases or slows to a trickle, like most other production.
The Imperial Guard was formed from the Imperialis Auxilia, and the Space Marines were barred from having heavy artillery. Presumably, the original plan for rearmament included the Leman Russ Basilisk, the Leman Russ Tank as we know it, and the Aurox. But after all that carnage and with all the reorganization and rebuilding, all the tank chassis that could be made needed to be made into tanks, but all these original-style Basilisks were now available because the Space Marines didn't need them and the factories to make them. Convenient for rapid re-armament, but not so much for aspirations of keeping the vehicle family. But ah, some enterprising techpriest observes: this artillery tank has a big open area in the back of it. Rather than resume Aurox production, why don't we take off the gun and cover over the back, and now it's an armored personel carrier and we can have a Basilisk-based family of vehicles, with the heavy MBT as the odd man out. And so, the Chimera was developed, and entered into full production along side the original-style Basilisk, and the Basilisk chassis was so good and versatile that literally everything for the new IG became based off of it and the techpriests and logisticians wondered why they hadn't thought of this sooner.

If Scions are an indicator I'd rather they don't update anything in IG anymore hah.

Give plastic Kasrkin now.

Say how old are the plastic cadian and catachans kits exactly? I'm not too new to the hobby, But they were already around back when I first seriously started collecting.

I do anticipate that a new guardsmen kit will be released eventually, the last major Guard release was nearly six years ago, which came alongside a contentious rebranding. Since then we've only had snippets. The diversity of guard aesthetics does pose some difficulty for GW: Futuristic or historical, Sci-Fi or retro, etc. Space Marines don't have this issue as much because the base power armour remains largely identical, with mostly ornamental differences. If I we're to guess they'd probably stick with Cadians for the time being, with an updated kit that consolidates the infantry/command/heavy weapons options.

Caradman Sturnn wrote:
Say how old are the plastic cadian and catachans kits exactly? I'm not too new to the hobby, But they were already around back when I first seriously started collecting.

2002 and 1994 respectively I believe, with some slight updates to rejigger sprues perhaps and repackaging to halve the number of models you get for the same price

Metals were circa 1994.

Plastic Catachans 1999 or 2000
Plastic Cadians 2002, along with plastic heavy weapons
Plastic command squads 2008 or so? Same time as the Valkyrie and new Chimera.

Good catch on the dates.

That said, trying to tell the plastic from the metal catachans is not easy, especially when GW decides this makes a good website marketing image for the plastics

Yeah honestly the more I think about it the more I believe if GW wants to add anything to guard vehicle wise they need to cannibalize the FW range. FW clearly only cares about Horus Heresy these days, and sooner or later many of our favorite guard vehicles will be lost to the sands of times, a lot already have.

May as well give us the Medusa, the Macharius, the Tauros, etc. in plastic. You already know guard players want it, you already know FW doesn't give a gak about anything other than HH, and you don't have to spend a lot of time designing something new that players are just going to hate and only buy after spending $20 on wheel kits. Its a win/win/win, which of course means GW would never do it Can't wait for my new Cawl Repulsive Russes!

And yeah, I bought some more Catachans the other day to fill some gaps in my Catachan army, good lord I forgot how basic that kit was. At least the painted examples on the store page can't be claimed as false advertising, they're a pretty good warning of what you're getting yourself into. They really need to introduce some new infantry kits. This level of quality would be inexcusable for any other major modeling company, especially as the bread and butter unit of a main army. I'd credit their Cadian and Catachan kits as singlehandedly supporting most of the 3rd party guard designers out there, no other army has infantry that are so readily converted and substituted as guard. Heck, I'd wager you could combine every other codex in the game and it wouldn't come close to matching the amount of 3rd party guard players buy. Granted, you could put out state of the art kits tomorrow at $40 for 20 guardsmen and there would still be players converting their own regiments, but it would definitely cut down on the amount of people who say to hell with GW plastics and try to buy infantry that aren't hideous.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...May as well give us the Medusa, the Macharius, the Tauros, etc. in plastic. You already know guard players want it, you already know FW doesn't give a gak about anything other than HH...

You know the Medusa and the Macharius at least are really useful things to have in HH, right?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...May as well give us the Medusa, the Macharius, the Tauros, etc. in plastic. You already know guard players want it, you already know FW doesn't give a gak about anything other than HH...

You know the Medusa and the Macharius at least are really useful things to have in HH, right?

I thought they only got Medusa on some weird HH tank platform? Much like how the Basilisk isn't mounted on a Chimera platform in it, but some weird HH space marine tank chassis. Also didn't know the Macharius was in the Heresy, seems weird that a tank named after a guy from long after the Heresy was finished with would be used in HH. What is it called in HH?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...May as well give us the Medusa, the Macharius, the Tauros, etc. in plastic. You already know guard players want it, you already know FW doesn't give a gak about anything other than HH...

You know the Medusa and the Macharius at least are really useful things to have in HH, right?

I thought they only got Medusa on some weird HH tank platform? Much like how the Basilisk isn't mounted on a Chimera platform in it, but some weird HH space marine tank chassis. Also didn't know the Macharius was in the Heresy, seems weird that a tank named after a guy from long after the Heresy was finished with would be used in HH. What is it called in HH?

The Legion Medusa and Basilisk are what you are thinking of. There is also a Solar Pattern for both that uses the Leman Russ chassis, for use with the Solar Auxilia.

The modern patterns of the Macharius are post heresy models. It's a newer vehicle based on pieced together historical records of a long forgotten heavy tank design (one of many designs) used during the Heresy era. The name of the original tank is unknown.

The main heavy tank during the Great Crusade was the Malcador, whose main claim to fame was its impressive speed and maneuverability, for its size and weight. By the time of the Heresy, the SPHESS MUHREENZ were getting fancier heavy tanks, while the Imperial Army was increasingly leaning towards the popular and cost effective Leman Russ as a jack of all trades battle tank. Fortunately for the Malcador, the Horus Heresy saved it from the scrap heap.

Just out of curiosity, was there ever the canonical story of why the Leman Russ tank is named for the dude?

Did he discover the STC? Did they just really like him?

Or was the orphan boy named for the tank? Hmmm...

Tank riders would be nice to model, but I’m afraid they’d have dismal rules.

Also, why did GW ditch wheeled/towed anti-tank guns like the rapier?

MrMoustaffa wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...May as well give us the Medusa, the Macharius, the Tauros, etc. in plastic. You already know guard players want it, you already know FW doesn't give a gak about anything other than HH...

You know the Medusa and the Macharius at least are really useful things to have in HH, right?

I thought they only got Medusa on some weird HH tank platform? Much like how the Basilisk isn't mounted on a Chimera platform in it, but some weird HH space marine tank chassis. Also didn't know the Macharius was in the Heresy, seems weird that a tank named after a guy from long after the Heresy was finished with would be used in HH. What is it called in HH?

Nah, it's just a Chimera-chassis, but space-marine-ified. It's still called "Legion Basilisk" and "Legion Medusa".


I don't think the Marcharius exists in HH.

Stormonu wrote:Tank riders would be nice to model, but I’m afraid they’d have dismal rules.

Also, why did GW ditch wheeled/towed anti-tank guns like the rapier?

Was the Rapier Gun Carrier ever actually around before it's introduction by Forgeworld?

I think that the last towed AT guns were those old metal Valhallan/Tallarn/Mordian ones. I think the last of those went away fairly recently when they finally put the axe to all the metal IG regiment models.


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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Just out of curiosity, was there ever the canonical story of why the Leman Russ tank is named for the dude?

Did he discover the STC? Did they just really like him?

Or was the orphan boy named for the tank? Hmmm...

IIRC it was discovered/developed by the Space Wolves during the Crusade. We used to be allowed to have them in our army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Was the Rapier Gun Carrier ever actually around before it's introduction by Forgeworld?

The Rapier has been around since the Rogue Trader era.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

...I don't think the Marcharius exists in HH...

...Or I could be confusing it with the Malcador.

Duskweaver wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Was the Rapier Gun Carrier ever actually around before it's introduction by Forgeworld?

The Rapier has been around since the Rogue Trader era.

Cool. I wasn't playing at that time, so I didn't know that. Kind of neat, and funny looking [like so much of the old stuff]

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

...I don't think the Marcharius exists in HH...

...Or I could be confusing it with the Malcador.

Dunno. I don't actually play HH.

There’s going to be a full Tempestus supplement in Greater Good.

You know? I could go for a Leman Russ pattern that didn't have the comically huge battlecannon. I like the tank for the most part, but a more legit-looking kit would be really cool.