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Not incorrect. Dead units can't score in any mission.

Martel732 wrote:
Not incorrect. Dead units can't score in any mission.

It is incorrect as Tau tabling an opponent is not an automatic win for every mission. For some missions it can be worth sacrificing units so they score then die which can cause you to get tabled but win the mission. Being tabled by Tau doesn't automatically mean Tau win. A good player knows when its worth while to sacrifice units or let his army die if it means winning the mission. I often move units into positions that I know will get them killed as its all about gaining more VP then your opponent. Depending on the mission mind you.

A lot of the newer missions are more then just tabling your opponent.

Against the right target a triple Fusion Commander with shield generator and Fusion blades is deadly. That’s a possible 5 fusion hits or 6 if you go quad Fusion with a possible further 2 fusions on the opponents round so 7 to 8 fusion hits. It’s very nasty against big targets with low attacks as the drones absorb the hard hitting but few attacks leaving you to hit back hard. I have killed a fair few warlords and Dreadnoughts with this in close combat.

Add in Hero’s of the Enclave trait to reroll close combat miss’s and Heroic Intervention 6” into enemies. If they didn’t declare you a charge target you can safety hit them hard and they cannot hit you back. Due to the long range it can be used as a long range flying Close Combat Assassin. Or you can fusion some tanks then charge into CC for safety and do more damage.

Farsight with a Dawn Blade added with bodyguards who have 3 attacks each, S5 and with ATS -1AP reroll 1’s to hit. With a possible further enhancement with the new book.

Then there is the good old Donkey Punch.

To a lesser degree even Stealth Suits with ATS or Tanks can be beneficial to charge into close combat as long as its the right target.

Fusion commander sounds good.

If you're taking Heroes of the Enclave trait then you aren't taking a trait that benefits them where it counts. Shooting, because thats what the army excels at. This is basically an option nobody is going to take.

Dawnblade sounds lack lustre, and more of a last resort deal

I assume the donkey punch refers to that Onager item? If you're taking that, again you aren't taking an actually useful item for the army.

Your point about running suits into the right target could be said about literally any unit in the game though.

Pottsey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not incorrect. Dead units can't score in any mission.

It is incorrect as Tau tabling an opponent is not an automatic win for every mission. For some missions it can be worth sacrificing units so they score then die which can cause you to get tabled but win the mission. Being tabled by Tau doesn't automatically mean Tau win. A good player knows when its worth while to sacrifice units or let his army die if it means winning the mission. I often move units into positions that I know will get them killed as its all about gaining more VP then your opponent. Depending on the mission mind you.

A lot of the newer missions are more then just tabling your opponent.

Dead units can't score. Tau just need to wipe you before you can even get to scoring position. EZ If I could just throw away units and win anyway, I wouldn't worry about Tau ever.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Against the right target a triple Fusion Commander with shield generator and Fusion blades is deadly. That’s a possible 5 fusion hits or 6 if you go quad Fusion with a possible further 2 fusions on the opponents round so 7 to 8 fusion hits. It’s very nasty against big targets with low attacks as the drones absorb the hard hitting but few attacks leaving you to hit back hard. I have killed a fair few warlords and Dreadnoughts with this in close combat.

Add in Hero’s of the Enclave trait to reroll close combat miss’s and Heroic Intervention 6” into enemies. If they didn’t declare you a charge target you can safety hit them hard and they cannot hit you back. Due to the long range it can be used as a long range flying Close Combat Assassin. Or you can fusion some tanks then charge into CC for safety and do more damage.

Farsight with a Dawn Blade added with bodyguards who have 3 attacks each, S5 and with ATS -1AP reroll 1’s to hit. With a possible further enhancement with the new book.

Then there is the good old Donkey Punch.

To a lesser degree even Stealth Suits with ATS or Tanks can be beneficial to charge into close combat as long as its the right target.

Fusion commander sounds good.

If you're taking Heroes of the Enclave trait then you aren't taking a trait that benefits them where it counts. Shooting, because thats what the army excels at. This is basically an option nobody is going to take.

Dawnblade sounds lack lustre, and more of a last resort deal

I assume the donkey punch refers to that Onager item? If you're taking that, again you aren't taking an actually useful item for the army.

Your point about running suits into the right target could be said about literally any unit in the game though.

Dawn Blade is 4 attacks, S8, -4AP, D3 damage hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1’s. It is not lack lustre. I think you are really underestimating how powerful and useful Heroes of the Enclave trait is when used well. Personally I find it more useful then the shooting traits. As you have that 20” or advance 40" movement you can surprise people by dropping point blank range, shooting then charging into close combat (if advanced via the trait on the enemy turn) and being just as deadly in close combat as shooting. It catches people off guard playing against Tau and suddenly finding units in there back lines that are not only deadly at shooting but hit hard in close combat. If you are playing against Tau would you leave close combat defense in your back lines?

The trait also lets you jump into close combat on your opponent turn hitting for S8. -4AP, D6 damage, rerolling all miss’s and done correctly they cannot hit you back. Then on your turn as you have fly you pull out of combat and shoot.
While Onager Gauntlet is the worst of the 3 options it’s still S10, -4 AP, D6 damage and we can take it along side Fusion Blades and Dawn Blade (different units). Add in the bodyguards with close combat boosts and you have respectable Close Combat ability.

What I meant with the suits is they can do some decent damage in close combat. For example the Stealth Suits have -1 to hit them in close combat and with ATS they have -1AP against the enemy.

Tau do excel at shooting more then close combat but that doesn’t mean its always better to skip over close combat and go pure shooting. Ok this might be a personal preference thing but I prefer having the above close combat options to go alongside the shooting. Not only do I find it works really well it makes games more interesting and stops people playing against me complain all Tau do is shoot. I also play extreme short range aggressive shooting. Its common for me to move and advanced my entire army into the enemy on turn 1. EDIT: This is why I do not agree with the people saying Tau are boring and Tau can only be played one way. We do have effective options other then just sit in a big castle, never moving and only shooting. As a Tau player I make full use of the movement phase and Close Combat phase.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not incorrect. Dead units can't score in any mission.

It is incorrect as Tau tabling an opponent is not an automatic win for every mission. For some missions it can be worth sacrificing units so they score then die which can cause you to get tabled but win the mission. Being tabled by Tau doesn't automatically mean Tau win. A good player knows when its worth while to sacrifice units or let his army die if it means winning the mission. I often move units into positions that I know will get them killed as its all about gaining more VP then your opponent. Depending on the mission mind you.

A lot of the newer missions are more then just tabling your opponent.

Dead units can't score. Tau just need to wipe you before you can even get to scoring position. EZ If I could just throw away units and win anyway, I wouldn't worry about Tau ever.

This does depend on the mission but as an example I can move a unit 14" out of where it was safe, score leaving it to be a dead unit on the Tau's turn. It doesn't matter if the Tau kill the unit, if the Tau player is sitting in a bubble just shooting I should win even if Tau table me.

Sitting in your deployment zone and tabling an opponent with the new missions is a good way to lose. It is not an automatic win anymore. What you said is only correct on mission with Sudden Death. The missions without sudden Death there are more important things then tabling your opponent.

It may just be the grass always being greener, but...

Fire Warriors are "premier shooting" - because they are a mighty 7 points. You can complain they are BS 4+ - but again, 7 points. Not 9 or 12 or 17 etc. S5 is great, it means you are wounding anything in the game (without some modifer) on at least 5s rather than 6s. With a cheap markerlight carrying fireblade you do 3 shots in 15", which is excellent. Special characters and stratagems buff this further.

Its become worse because Marines have ways of easily getting 2+ saves and/or FNPs etc which makes ap - a liability. This however applies, to a greater or lesser extent, to almost every army facing Marines in the game right now.

The problem with Tau is that they are seen as boring and mono-build but this is sort of a function of whats good.

If you take
2-3 commanders
1-2 fireblades.
0-1 ethereals
5-30 fire warriors
3 riptides
30-40 drones
0-10 pathfinders

You are done. Thats going to be your 1750/2k points.

And the thing is, its all or nothing. If you take 3 riptides, and you will be sorely tempted because they are clearly good, thats not too far off half your points. So you need to protect them. Throw in loads of drones. Oh look, now we are say 1200-1250ish points. Throw in some HQs and you are well into two thirds of the list. Everything you take has to support this core.

So if you don't want to fall into this trap, you sort of feel like you have to take no riptides at all. Yes you can take one - but one guarded by say 10 drones, is a lot easier for your opponent to handle than 3 surrounded by 30-40. You get diminished returns.

This isn't however to say you can't play a fast paced army with lots of fire warriors, with stealth suits and ghostkeels and say one riptide relying on a 3++. I think its fine compared with what loads of factions can currently do in the game. Its just not as good as the triptide list - especially in ITC - so why bother?

Pottsey wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
“Kind of hard to say "Just because one person is unimaginative and one dimensional..." when almost every Tau player and the vast majority of Tau bat rep videos I have seen all look like the darn near same gunline castle, that relies on exactly the same tactics.”

The past few times I went to Warhammer world and other clubs less than 1/3 of Tau played like that. Same for Twitch streams from Warhammer world the past batch where anything but one dimensional and especially for the red ones I don’t even remember the last time I watched a battle report and Tau just sat in a bubble shooting only. Been over a year since I have seen that. Seen plenty of other styles though. Pay extra attention to the red ones as they are more likely to avoid bubble castles.

That is actually really exciting to hear, I am glad to see that the playstyle for Tau has been changing. I dropped out of actively playing 40k just under a year ago, and it seems my experience against Tau and what I have seen in battle reports is no longer valid.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It's Tau. Who the feth wants to play with ugly ass Kroot. They should make Tau combat suits that at least match the aesthetic of the rest of the army.

Ha ha, not me; I use ork shoota boyz for kroot.

Lol. This viewpoint is so hilariously outdated.

You know what happens when a tau army sets up 30" away for a stationary gunline battle?

"Ok, my unit of 20 fire warriors shoots 20 shots, 10 hits, 6 wounds."

"You kill one intercessor. Im gonna switch to tactical doctrine and shoot back. I get rapid fire, reroll hits, exploding hits on 6s, reroll wounds, AP-2, ignore cover."

"You kill 20 fire warriors."

The last time I played my deathwatch was versus gunline tau and I tabled them turn 3 with basically no casualties thanks to embedded terminators, storm shields and AP-1 storm bolters. It was stupid, and that army went on the shelf except for kill team games.

Dumb feth castle gunline is space marines now.

Tau can compete with Marines only on ITC magic boxes were you can hide drones. In normal games, destroying 40-50 drones in one round of shooting is neligible for a middle of the road shooting Space Marine list. And after that is like shoting ducks in a barrel for the marine player.

Well, looks like at least one persons mind was changed as to the awful nature of Tau. I think that's about as much of a victory as any thread could hope for.

In summation, Tau can be strong, but their list can be much more varied these days. Marine gunlines are bonkers.

I'd say, any army can be extremely boring depending on set up. If all you do is castle shoot out, yeah it's going to be kinda lame all things considered however GW do however incentive some poor play styles to maximize the comborific nature of the current game state. That isn't just a Tau issue.

Tau can be strong, as most armies can be set up right and handled well.

You need to always dig a little deeper as some dislike can be hold over from editions past and how the army used to fight traditionally or at least at the hands of the vast majority of players that used them. I think every army can suffer from that stigma.

Hell, I play guard and don't tend to just gunline, I have my fire support and mobile groups but old hatreds die hard. As well GW have this really weird way of nerfing or over costing the elements of the army that aren't your standard castle defense choices.

Like Bullgryns, Ogryns for some reason raising points, Rough Riders no longer even in the core book. You want armies to function differently they need to incentivize list diversity some, otherwise the numbers just pan out that all you'll see is, moving or stationary shooting lists involving either one big castle or multiple smaller castles. It's often not the players fault as much as it is the cost effective options they have.

the_scotsman wrote:
Lol. This viewpoint is so hilariously outdated.

You know what happens when a tau army sets up 30" away for a stationary gunline battle?

"Ok, my unit of 20 fire warriors shoots 20 shots, 10 hits, 6 wounds."

"You kill one intercessor. Im gonna switch to tactical doctrine and shoot back. I get rapid fire, reroll hits, exploding hits on 6s, reroll wounds, AP-2, ignore cover."

"You kill 20 fire warriors."

The last time I played my deathwatch was versus gunline tau and I tabled them turn 3 with basically no casualties thanks to embedded terminators, storm shields and AP-1 storm bolters. It was stupid, and that army went on the shelf except for kill team games.

Dumbfuck castle gunline is space marines now.

I would love to see math where less than 10 marines kill 20 firewarrior in average.


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 Galas wrote:
Tau can compete with Marines only on ITC magic boxes were you can hide drones. In normal games, destroying 40-50 drones in one round of shooting is neligible for a middle of the road shooting Space Marine list. And after that is like shoting ducks in a barrel for the marine player.

What extra benefit magic box have? Any good board, itc or not, has los blocking terrain. No need for magic boxes to ensure only non los weapons can shoot at drones

 Ishagu wrote:
In ITC only 1 list is viable.

Myth. Chapter approved brought more possible variation, it's just most ITC players are risk-averse and already own said triptide list. I guarantee the triple Ghostkeel/ Stealth/ Vespid spam list is better against Iron Hands than triptide.

Not to mention, we had a 4th place just before christmas with triple Stormsurge filled out by Broadsides (puke)

 Galas wrote:
Tau can compete with Marines only on ITC magic boxes were you can hide drones. In normal games, destroying 40-50 drones in one round of shooting is neligible for a middle of the road shooting Space Marine list. And after that is like shoting ducks in a barrel for the marine player.

Um, yeah. Like a Tau list totally did not go 6-0 at the GW GT finals last month.

Of course, it was a different list to what you see in ITC (it had Piranha for a start) and the missions are different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well, looks like at least one persons mind was changed as to the awful nature of Tau. I think that's about as much of a victory as any thread could hope for.

In summation, Tau can be strong, but their list can be much more varied these days. Marine gunlines are bonkers.

Looking at the reviews and leaks for Psychic Awakening I think we may see a very different Tau build being tried by some good Tau players. Farsight Enclaves have some serious tricks now and will play in a very mobile and aggressive style.

I think it has a pretty high skill floor but when it works it might work very well.

That sort of variety is very good for the game. I guess some people will still complain because hating certain factions becomes a habit but it really will be very different to what we have seen recently.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Lol. This viewpoint is so hilariously outdated.

You know what happens when a tau army sets up 30" away for a stationary gunline battle?

"Ok, my unit of 20 fire warriors shoots 20 shots, 10 hits, 6 wounds."

"You kill one intercessor. Im gonna switch to tactical doctrine and shoot back. I get rapid fire, reroll hits, exploding hits on 6s, reroll wounds, AP-2, ignore cover."

"You kill 20 fire warriors."

The last time I played my deathwatch was versus gunline tau and I tabled them turn 3 with basically no casualties thanks to embedded terminators, storm shields and AP-1 storm bolters. It was stupid, and that army went on the shelf except for kill team games.

Dumbfuck castle gunline is space marines now.

I would love to see math where less than 10 marines kill 20 firewarrior in average.

Using the Rapid Fire strat to make them Rapid Fire 2...

40 shots
320/9 hits
2,240/81 wounds
11,200/486 or 5,600/243 unsaved
23 dead Fire Warriors.

Buffs are the Rapid Fire strat, a Chapter Master, and a Lieutenant while in the Tactical Doctrine.

They have one strong competitive build and it's get boring to play with and against very quickly IMO. PA just gave Farsight Enclaves 2 commanders per detachment so I expect competitive lists will now start with 6 commanders + 3 Riptides.

I would disagree that Tau are a one phase army. they have mobility and we have a few players in my area that use that to its full advantage. Then again in my meta it is common for terrain to be set up in a way that one can literally not draw line of sight across the table and one would struggle to get even a 18" shot off.

That said even as a two phase army Tau are not the funnest to play against. SMS to ignore line of sight and good movement means they can mostly ignore lower armies like orks and tear apart our fragile overpriced vehicles. they do tend to do less well against things liek custodes and marines though in my meta

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I would disagree that Tau are a one phase army. they have mobility and we have a few players in my area that use that to its full advantage. Then again in my meta it is common for terrain to be set up in a way that one can literally not draw line of sight across the table and one would struggle to get even a 18" shot off.

That said even as a two phase army Tau are not the funnest to play against. SMS to ignore line of sight and good movement means they can mostly ignore lower armies like orks and tear apart our fragile overpriced vehicles. they do tend to do less well against things liek custodes and marines though in my meta

Are there Tau players out there who do not use the assault phase to turn off enemy shooting units?

Our resident Tau player does that all the time and it is ridiculous how much that adds to the army. Basically anything more durable than a fire warrior will be looking for opportunities to scoot forward and tag any non-fly shooting unit in your army.

I have never seen him set up 30" away and try to shoot somebody off the table. It just doesn't seem to work with the army in normal setups. Maybe in the triptide+Drones setup but certainly not in any list using the other 95% of the unit roster.

"Guard aren't a problem because they can bring armies from other codexes" is a pretty funny excuse to me, because people have been bitching about souped-up guard all edition and the single hardest time anyone has ever bitched about Tau has been when they HAD that option in 6th and could bring eldar as allies.

"They have no weaknesses now! They have psychic and melee options!" - remember that?