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 ImAGeek wrote:
Or Video games, if were gonna look at completely different types of game.

I’ve gone pretty cold on PP games, so I’m not really defending them. I just don’t understand this idea that if your game isn’t as big as Games Workshop, it’s a failure, because that would make Games Workshop the only successful tabletop wargaming company.

I just rattled off games you could find by walking into an FLGS.

For just miniature games this is a start:

1 - Warhammer 40K - Games Workshop

2 - Age of Sigmar - Games Workshop

3 - D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis - WizKids

4 - Star Wars X-Wing - Fantasy Flight Games

5 - Star Wars Legion - Fantasy Flight Games

Or this list.

I could also guess that Flames of War might be ahead of anything PP is producing as well.


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 Agamemnon2 wrote:
There are many metrics by which that is a defensible statement.

^ This ^

 Vertrucio wrote:
This new PP could barly run a demo that was watchable. This is likely a soon to be DOA turd...

I've never had any interest in anything PP has made, but I found that video completely watchable and interesting and now I'm planning on supporting this kick starter.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Sunno wrote:
The WM/H community has always been off doing its own thing. Which in retrospect, has probably been a mistake as it really hamstrung our recovery after the disaster that was the Mk3 launch. But that has forced the communities to change. All im saying is that if you go looking for the PP community in the UK, you will find us :-)

When people have to find your game, rather than being able to discover it at any FLGS, that's usually a very bad sign.

Nearly every miniatures game except for 40K has to be sought out and discovered by customers. No other game, except XWing in its prime, has the kind of market penetration where you can expect to walk into a game shop and find it. Thats a standard that nothing in the industry is living up to except 40K.

 jake wrote:
Nearly every miniatures game except for 40K has to be sought out and discovered by customers. No other game, except XWing in its prime, has the kind of market penetration where you can expect to walk into a game shop and find it. Thats a standard that nothing in the industry is living up to except 40K.

That might explain why so many games don't make it to the decade mark within this market. The industry needs to slash prices and adapt quickly or somehow launch with sculpts and models to make GWs look like cheap knockoffs for the same price.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

That might explain why so many games don't make it to the decade mark within this market..

Nevermind a decade, three years is a bridge too far for many. Anyone still get passionate over Warpath, Dreadzone or Gates of Antares? I believe all three still exist, but have passed under the threshold of noticeability ages ago.

Hey guys, you're straying from Warcaster talk into PP bashing, which is fine but take that to the PP games forum and topics.

It's been an entire page worth of posts that's just back and forth on this, and no discussion about Warcaster specifically.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


That might explain why so many games don't make it to the decade mark within this market. The industry needs to slash prices and adapt quickly or somehow launch with sculpts and models to make GWs look like cheap knockoffs for the same price.

Most of the industry is already significantly cheaper than GW. Prices aren't the problem, it's the general reluctance so many people have to look at anything that isn't already being played by everyone around them. A game needs a following for people to want to play it, which obviously creates a bit of a catch 22.

 insaniak wrote:
Most of the industry is already significantly cheaper than GW. Prices aren't the problem, it's the general reluctance so many people have to look at anything that isn't already being played by everyone around them. A game needs a following for people to want to play it, which obviously creates a bit of a catch 22.

Then it's up to companies to spend more on marketing and convincing stores to routinely demo their games. Its why the Press Gangers were brilliant, I wouldn't have a 25 point Kara Sloan list from MkII if not for that exact recruitment method.

If something seems like an obvious answer, but isn't currently being done, it's usually a fair assumption that the answer isn't actually the right one.

The marketing discussion is probably best carried on elsewhere, though.

 insaniak wrote:
If something seems like an obvious answer, but isn't currently being done, it's usually a fair assumption that the answer isn't actually the right one.

The marketing discussion is probably best carried on elsewhere, though.

This entire conversation basically came from my saying that Warcaster is probably going to be DOA and given how many games come out, burn brightly for 6 months, and are basically dead within a year that seems germane to the topic at hand.

Heck, your Maelstrom's edge signature makes me laugh a little seeing as Spiral Arm Studios don't appear to be doing well enough to maintain their own company website at the moment; check out http://www.spiralarmstudios.com/ to see what I mean.

10 years for a product is a pretty decent lifespan. Just saying.
let's not forget that in any industry, most companies fail within first 3 years or so. That's to be expected.

Cronch wrote:
10 years for a product is a pretty decent lifespan. Just saying.
let's not forget that in any industry, most companies fail within first 3 years or so. That's to be expected.

Is it though I've got a pair of game consoles sitting next to me that are older than that and my current phone is pushing 6 years old already. I'd rather invest in something that's built for the long haul than chance a game that'll be gone before I can even really get invested.

I mean, games are entertainment, not lifelong commitment. Investing in them makes no sense as a collector, your ROI is always negative.

On the other hand, this game will absolutely be DOA no matter what, seeing as we're busy discussing just about anything but the main attraction. I've seen zero buzz on the wider internet too, with a lot of derisive comments instead. Hell, I like the models, and I've absolutely no intention of buying into it either.

Cronch this is Dakka.

You can't use it as an effective measuring stick because EVERY GW release for the last decade or more was "the last deathnail that will never sell and the company will burn in the fires and die". Granted its not as bad as it was in the end of the Kirby days, but by and large that's the typical Dakka response to most things

Dakka has a negative slant by and large as a result of a population that seems to have retained a large number of cynical people coupled with a good few who have honestly moved on from specific games/companies/wargaming, but who hang around for the community.


Plus lets not forget so far we've 2 basic warbands, 1 gameplay video and a few bits of art with no prices; purchase options nor real glances at the future. At present the marketing isn't in the hard-sell phase; its in the wetting apatite and spreading the word - and I'd argue 9 pages based on that tiny bit of information is actually a positive thing.
If PP were really outright dead we'd have less than 1 page and mostof that would be the same person posting new posts as info came out.

That one is the most obvious space-Cryx of the bunch. The elongated neck and clawed fingers on the jack stand out, and the arc node solo heavily shares Denny's silhouette.


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 Canadian 5th wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Most of the industry is already significantly cheaper than GW. Prices aren't the problem, it's the general reluctance so many people have to look at anything that isn't already being played by everyone around them. A game needs a following for people to want to play it, which obviously creates a bit of a catch 22.

Then it's up to companies to spend more on marketing and convincing stores to routinely demo their games. Its why the Press Gangers were brilliant, I wouldn't have a 25 point Kara Sloan list from MkII if not for that exact recruitment method.

I'm entertained by your world of unlimited funding.

Overread, I'm not talking about Dakka. I'm yet to see a single message board etc. that has any significant hype about it. I'm sure it'll reach whatever basic goal it sets itself up for, but it'll end up no different to The Other Side I think.

Cronch wrote:
Overread, I'm not talking about Dakka. I'm yet to see a single message board etc. that has any significant hype about it. I'm sure it'll reach whatever basic goal it sets itself up for, but it'll end up no different to The Other Side I think.

Pretty much all of PPs discussion happens on Facebook these days. Dakka is the last message board I see traffic on much at all anymore honestly, and I mostly stick around because its somehow marginally less miserable than FB or Twitter.

You're right about that - we don't get many PP players here (although I myself was one, very heavily, for a long time). After they nuked their forums, the discussion fractured into separate facebook groups, so it's hard to get a good read on the "community" as a whole (and, honestly, that community was greatly hurt by the loss of official faction forums and ending of the press ganger program).

Overall, I am interested in what I'm seeing here. Although moreso in Boss Salvage's memes . The one thing I don't like is the head-in-torso look of the jacks/robots... really would've liked to see them branch out from that aesthetic. I loved the tan colored robot at first, because I didn't see the small head in front, and thought it just had sensors... take the head off and it's a way better concept imo.

I will definitely be keeping an eye on this launch! (And if we could try to avoid doing tooooooooooo much PP bashing in this thread, that would also be great . I will also be keeping an eye on the thread...)

Facebook I find is very impersonal also the groups only have one long stream of posts. It's like a single forum subsection. For actual hobby discussion its a really bad platform.

It's great for connecting with people and updating a club for a weeks events and such; but for forming a community online and for retaining access to old discussions and such FB is years behind forums.

I also find it affects the kind of conversations you get so it can be really hard to judge a community.




I agree PP did themselves a huge disservice nuking their own, very active, forums and shattering their own community. What baffles me is that they've stuck with this plan and not revitalised their own forums even though they've got the whole infstrastructure there. I'd bet if they restored them to their own function they could spark up some renewed interest even now - at least being a single hub of interest.

Then again PP's online stuffis a bit spotty at present - eg the website gallery still hasn't got a page for Infernals to look at.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


I could also guess that Flames of War might be ahead of anything PP is producing as well.

Flames of War is still around? That's not me being pithy but an honest question. The only store I've seen it in in the past 7 years across 5 states was a single HobbyTown USA with like 4-6 boxes of stuff gathering dust on clearance. Compared to PP which still had fairly large sections in most of those stores.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Sunno wrote:
The WM/H community has always been off doing its own thing. Which in retrospect, has probably been a mistake as it really hamstrung our recovery after the disaster that was the Mk3 launch. But that has forced the communities to change. All im saying is that if you go looking for the PP community in the UK, you will find us :-)

When people have to find your game, rather than being able to discover it at any FLGS, that's usually a very bad sign.

depends on the location, here you have to go to the GW or you wont see any GW games being played, but we all know its likely the #1 miniatures game company. I havent seen a game of 40k played at any flgs not named GW in close to a year.

You won't ever see the like of this written about a PP game.

You know, if the price to pay for normies to stay out of my game and 40 years-old wino-mom ex-Staceys to remain ignorant of my plastic mandoll obsession is my flaghead game to remain less popular, I'll gladly pay it. As for products I have everything Warmahorde stocked at my LGS. Way bigger frontstore presence to Infinity.

 Overread wrote:
I agree PP did themselves a huge disservice nuking their own, very active, forums and shattering their own community. What baffles me is that they've stuck with this plan and not revitalised their own forums even though they've got the whole infstrastructure there. I'd bet if they restored them to their own function they could spark up some renewed interest even now - at least being a single hub of interest.

Then again PP's online stuffis a bit spotty at present - eg the website gallery still hasn't got a page for Infernals to look at.

Not many companies are running active forums these days are they? I mean, a few have them, but they all seem pretty dead when I visit. I don't like what's replaced them personally, but there seems little interest in starting up a forum these days and even less interest in keeping up to date with forum software.

In terms of their gallery, it was essentially abandoned after they redid the store. I'm kind of surprised they haven't shut it down as its mostly a bit of confusion now that most of the content from it is in the webstore. Pretty common trend across the industry really.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:


I could also guess that Flames of War might be ahead of anything PP is producing as well.

Flames of War is still around? That's not me being pithy but an honest question. The only store I've seen it in in the past 7 years across 5 states was a single HobbyTown USA with like 4-6 boxes of stuff gathering dust on clearance. Compared to PP which still had fairly large sections in most of those stores.

Yes, it's still very much around. It also has a post-war counterpart game in Team Yankee. Both games have a very active following at my FLGS. WMH used to be an extremely popular game at my FLGS. But if my local srore still has any product, it's on the discount rack. No one plays it there anymore.

Here's my concerns over this; PP asked it's employees to take a pay cut to launch the 2nd Monsterpocalypse(sp?) That speaks volumes to how they're doing as a company. WM/H armies can be bought for next to nothing on the secondary markets. Online retailers have dropped their products. They've launched approximately 10 products including WM/H, of which 2... maybe 3 were supported for more than a year or two. Now Warcaster is going to KS. Leaving aside the minis (which I do kinda like), I personally see this as a last attempt to remain viable as a company. I think it's a shame. PP has some good people who work there and if this fails, I don't think they'll ever really recover.

I was a long time player and PG'r. I got to know quite a few of the people at PP and overall, they are (were?) a good company. The launch of MK III, the CID program encactment and the dissolution of the Press Gang happening all rapidly really hurt PP IMHO, the catalyst for some of their "core" people leaving. I do hope this works out for them, but I personally won't be supporting the KS.

Which explains why WARCASTER went with Kickstarter. No reason not to if you have nothing to lose.

Vertrucio wrote:So then, Warcaster could be their way back to being competitive.

I had the most fun with Warmachine back when it was all metal and was special order only or had a tiny single rack at a couple local places. I had the least fun when there was this established tournament meta and the CID and all that. And the grey board gamey plastic. Ugh. Hated it.

If Privateer does this with kickstarter and keeps to metal (resin for larger pieces) and designs for a fun experience rather than a tournament scene, I'll strongly consider backing. And then when the first expansion is another kickstarter in 2021, if they've kept their focus on the basics and didn't make it like late mk2 or into mk3 wm/h, I'll back again.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I agree PP did themselves a huge disservice nuking their own, very active, forums and shattering their own community. What baffles me is that they've stuck with this plan and not revitalised their own forums even though they've got the whole infstrastructure there. I'd bet if they restored them to their own function they could spark up some renewed interest even now - at least being a single hub of interest.

Then again PP's online stuffis a bit spotty at present - eg the website gallery still hasn't got a page for Infernals to look at.

Not many companies are running active forums these days are they? I mean, a few have them, but they all seem pretty dead when I visit. I don't like what's replaced them personally, but there seems little interest in starting up a forum these days and even less interest in keeping up to date with forum software.

In terms of their gallery, it was essentially abandoned after they redid the store. I'm kind of surprised they haven't shut it down as its mostly a bit of confusion now that most of the content from it is in the webstore. Pretty common trend across the industry really.

Forums seem to be dying in favor of Facebook pages, which I'm not a fan of. My own local club migrated off of Facebook and opened up a forum instead, and we're looking to get our own website this year.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I agree PP did themselves a huge disservice nuking their own, very active, forums and shattering their own community. What baffles me is that they've stuck with this plan and not revitalised their own forums even though they've got the whole infstrastructure there. I'd bet if they restored them to their own function they could spark up some renewed interest even now - at least being a single hub of interest.

Then again PP's online stuffis a bit spotty at present - eg the website gallery still hasn't got a page for Infernals to look at.

Not many companies are running active forums these days are they? I mean, a few have them, but they all seem pretty dead when I visit. I don't like what's replaced them personally, but there seems little interest in starting up a forum these days and even less interest in keeping up to date with forum software.

In terms of their gallery, it was essentially abandoned after they redid the store. I'm kind of surprised they haven't shut it down as its mostly a bit of confusion now that most of the content from it is in the webstore. Pretty common trend across the industry really.

Fantasy flight and corvus bellies bouth have forums for xwing and infinity with good content and activity

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

That might explain why so many games don't make it to the decade mark within this market..

Nevermind a decade, three years is a bridge too far for many. Anyone still get passionate over Warpath, Dreadzone or Gates of Antares? I believe all three still exist, but have passed under the threshold of noticeability ages ago.

I bought Antares plastics and Dreadball minis in the last 4 months. I plan to buy the Warpath novel by CL Werner when it comes out (if it comes out), and the Antares anthologies have been solid. If Antares releases a new plastic kit this year, I'll likely buy one, and I'm waiting to strike on a Star Saga expansion whose prices are going crazy with Amazon algorithms.


But I'm not about to drop $100 on any new releases*, and I doubt many Mantic or Antares customers are, so a scaled back approach is wise for them.


*except maybe the DFC fleet boxes, if they ever show up in my FLGS.

I worked in some Deadzone Minis today and Warpath has come up a lot lately in discussions (like every time 40k suffers from bad rules)

but noticeability is a thing as most discussions run on Facebook and with nothing to complain about there is no loud voice going thru the web.

also those are mostly played in small groups/clubs and not at stores or big tournaments

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Heck, your Maelstrom's edge signature makes me laugh a little seeing as Spiral Arm Studios don't appear to be doing well enough to maintain their own company website at the moment; check out http://www.spiralarmstudios.com/ to see what I mean.

Our website is http://www.maelstromsedge.com ...

 Overread wrote:
Cronch this is Dakka.

You can't use it as an effective measuring stick because EVERY GW release for the last decade or more was "the last deathnail that will never sell and the company will burn in the fires and die". Granted its not as bad as it was in the end of the Kirby days, but by and large that's the typical Dakka response to most things

I think it's doing a huge disservice to the Dakka community to just dismiss the reaction here as some sort of Dakka hivemind negativity, frankly. The post Kirby reception to pretty much every GW release has been largely positive, at least in regards to the models. And Dakka's reaction to other ranges has generally been either positive or leaned more towards indifference than negativity.

People see what they expect to see.