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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Argive wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 catbarf wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Marines have stalkers that d2. It's not hard to build lists with most factions that have lots of multiple damage weapons. Primaris Marines are easy to plan for with most armies.


Leaving aside that your example of a unit capable of countering Primaris Marines is a Primaris Marine, there is a massive difference between 'you can plan for it and take units that are a good counter' versus 'lots of armies basically every weapon they shoot at you does 2 flat or d3 damage', which is what Xeno said and is nonsense.

It's Xeno, his posts are almost always hyperbolic. I have played with primaris Marines all edition, trust me they die fast when people plan for them. So the smart version of his point is armies can bring a good amount of multiple damage weapons if they want. Those weapons shred primaris.

Also I just mentioned stalkers because that is what came to mind (probably because I primary play Marines). Plenty of other troops can take at least some multiple damage weapons, for instance lots of troops can take plasma weapons.


I think that's a bit beside the point though. If I understand the OP correctly, the question should be about how elite marines should feel when compared to other "common" opposing units. How strong should marines feel against typical 40K enemies.

Like, they should beat up on GEQ. They should beat up on Orks, sorta. Should they be handily pummeling Striking Scorpions though? And my point, should they be pummeling Chaos Marines, because that's what Intercessors do. Half of the comparison is points to points, but also what are we after in terms of imagery? Loyalist Marines (Intercessors) just standing there and mowing down waves of the best troops the opponent can toss at them?

Intercessors are infantry killing specialists. Complaining about them killing your T3 infantry is odd to me no offense. It would be like complaining that my cold star Tau commander with quad fusion is killing your T7 vehicle without an inv. That is kinda his whole job. If he doesn't do that well then I won't take him.

So yes I do think slow heavy infantry infantry with S4 guns should be good at fighting infantry. Because if they weren't I won't take them.

Also I do rather like the new Marines. They actually feel like Marines should feel on the table. You are free to disagree.

Ahh, but you see, Striking Scorpions are also infantry killing specialists, and they've held rough parity with Marines troops with an emphasis and advantage in CC for 20+ years. And at the same time, Dire Avengers have been roughly equivalent to Tac Marines at shooting, and are also anti infantry specialists. Both units are now totally outclassed in each of their specialties by Intercessors. Likewise Necrons, who are billed as very tough troops, are now totally outclassed by the 2W Intercessors. Do you see the trend here?


DA are 11pts btw.. just saying.

I don't follow?

My point is that DA are also anti infantry specialists, whose firepower in the past has roughly equaled tac marine bolter output or better. And now Intercessors shooting output is far superior.


Yep, and if you magically teleported equal points of DA into 18" range, and the marine player decided to play without Chapter Tactics or Doctrines, those Intercessors would kill more points of DA.

Looool.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Argive wrote:
Ohh I was just trying to highlight they now cost the same as tacs which is... well.. crazy.

You mean the Tacs with +1A on the charge, ATSKNF, shoot bolter twice at 24", T4 3+ save? Those tacs?

Not that I'm a big fan of codex-to-codex comparisons, but it's getting weird. Poor Avengers, they should be rocking 24" range catapults at least.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Funny thing is actual melee specialist marines currently suck.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Funny thing is actual melee specialist marines currently suck.

Assault Marines ain't great, but the other ones can pack a punch. Terminators can hit disgustingly hard.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Funny thing is actual melee specialist marines currently suck.


Thats because in GWs mind, the thing you should exchange the best badic infantry gun in the game for to become a "melee specialist" iiiis a knife.

And cost more points.

Poor Roieuveurs.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Cobleskill

the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Everyone does remember though how the game looked like, when marines did not have those IF, IH and RG rules right? Eldar and tau were running rings around them. They couldn't kill enough orcs before being overun, and struggles against stuff like knights or chaos soups. Taking away the rules would just revert the game to where the minority of players using xeno armies would be beating the majority of marine players. I think people are going to struggle to convince people to ask for nerfs to their own armies, for nothing in return, Specially when future codex, may buff the xeno armies above what marines have now. And I doubt all those people that cry for marine nerfs now, are going to ask for nerfs of their own books.


Nope. When Tau are really strong and people complain they have boring, uninteractive gunline rules, I tend to agree. When guard are strong and it feels like these baseline level humans are outperforming supposed superhuman soldiers, I tend to agree. When Eldar are strong and it feels like they have 9000 special rules for how their special guys are the specialest and bestest at everything, I tend to agree.

I'm just applying those exact same standards to marines right now. Pretty much all at once.


Please give my Crisis Suits JSJ back, and I personally, would be pleased as punch.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Marines just needed to be cheaper.


But then...

Units like kabalites, guardians and genestealers being horde units that you shovel off the table a bucket at a time is exactly what makes gw the most money.


Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Marines just needed to be cheaper.


But then...

Units like kabalites, guardians and genestealers being horde units that you shovel off the table a bucket at a time is exactly what makes gw the most money.


Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.

Imo this is less to do about point values and more to do about how individual models feel compared to other individual models, in a narrative sort of way. Should the Intercessor-as-new-marine-baseline be so outright superior to other common baselines? Instead of telling stories where a squad of marines and a squad of Aspect Warriors met and have a hard-fought battle, do we instead tell stories of Intercessors roflstomping their quarry?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Given how many posts you see from people just whanging themselves raw every time gw posts a picture of a marine being taller than some other factions guys or a marine doing a stab at a fire warrior, I think I know what kind of narratives people are looking to tell.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Yeah, a lot of people don't like the idea of "shoveling [their minis] off the table a bucket at a time". They like to feel their units are effective, too. Maybe not "elite" but still effective at what they do.

Complaining that other armies don't exclusively exist to give marine players something to spank off to is kinda sad. I'm glad I don't win every single game with my BA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 00:25:21


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Too many "Romancing the Bolter" novels.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, a lot of people don't like the idea of "shoveling [their minis] off the table a bucket at a time". They like to feel their units are effective, too. Maybe not "elite" but still effective at what they do.

Well, removal of AP5 for 8th sure stung in terms of Marine vs. GEQ, and the removal of templates/blasts had a big part to do with that as well. So there was definitely part of the equation that was lost. But Primaris stats threw things out of whack in terms of individual-model-vs.-opposing-model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 00:31:27


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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ITT: Everyone but xeno says that this is messed up
   
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We've basically had fanboy whiplash.

40ks fans who grew up with it are now writing it and marines are getting beyond ridiculous.

Jes Goodwin's 7 foot marine was all they needed to be.

But then hilarious hyperbole ensued and fans regularly described then as 10 foot tall monsters that shoot coke cans at their enemies.

They went from the elite strike force of the imperium that descended on key targets to break an enemy already at war with other imperial forces, to prosecuting whole wars by themselves.

Their armour went from being the best protection humans could make, to tank armour that doesn't restrict movement but somehow is also stronger than inches thick armour plates on vehicles.

When Matt ward went nuts with 5th I said that this would just create a never ending DBZ one-upmanship and that's what's happened.


GW are caught between marketing and greed. They want to make marines seem like the best doods Eva and get customers hooked, but they also want to sell lots of them too.

Their hype makes their product so good you shouldn't need many of them, but their business wants you to buy lots of them...


8th ed has gone out of control with its buffs and auras. Every time GW does something good, they have to over do it to keep selling it and eventually ruin it in the process.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/25 00:39:00


   
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Australia

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
"They feel like Marines should feel" is one of the most subjective and poorly defined phrases I repeatedly hear on this forum.

If a unit "feels like Marines should feel", they're probably broken, because Marines are ridiculously OP in almost every piece of lore they feature in and this is synonymous with our thinking of what a marine is.

Unfortunately this does not make for a fun or balanced game, as we are now realising.

I've read Scotsman's maths on the first page and I'm not surprised. We have these units that are better at everything than the specialists. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is probably not a good game state to exist in.


Englishman, just you wait until we get the Psychic Awakening book that focuses on Orks, surely with the release of Ghaz we'll see an awesome shift in lore an -

The next Psychic Awakening book, Saga of the Beast, will centre around the Space Wolves’ attempts to finally end Waaagh! Ghazghkull, and you’ll be able to pick it up next month


Oh, looks like Space Marines are the only ones in the galaxy that have narrative power. nevermind.
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Marines just needed to be cheaper.


But then...

Units like kabalites, guardians and genestealers being horde units that you shovel off the table a bucket at a time is exactly what makes gw the most money.


Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.


You know.. this is whats been said since SM 2.0 dropped and yet.. here we are how many months? And CA2019 later.. CA 2019 could have absolutely adjusted some points _ they released comprehensive errata after all..
Its not happening until PA is done and the next proper full 2.0 codex comes out that will make marines look pedestrian in line with the power creep trend and that will start the new arms race.

Bear in mind FW books are incoming so I fully expect the character dreads stupidity to be curbed there (at least all the OOp options will be going legends or just vanishing)

But yes FAQ are sorely needed to really curb some of this nonsense down. But where on earth do you start where there is sooooo many layered rules??
Give everyone else T1 DS and infiltrate back would be a start.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.


Like I said before, this is less because Marines still sucked pre-2.0 and more that Marine players either ignore that period post-Bolter Discipline, post-CA18, but pre-2.0, or they analyze it solely through the lens of high-tier competitive play.

At least in my local meta, as soon as Marine infantry started consistently out-shooting and out-fighting most other infantry in the game thanks to points drops and Bolter Discipline, casual play started to become less enjoyable. It just wasn't until the supplements that things got ridiculous enough for tournament players to start to complain.

   
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Douglasville, GA

To be fair, I always thought the Marine statline was great. I'd have daydreams of Ork Nobs with the datasheet of a Tactical Marine (which even now is considered "awful").
   
Made in us
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 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.


Like I said before, this is less because Marines still sucked pre-2.0 and more that Marine players either ignore that period post-Bolter Discipline, post-CA18, but pre-2.0, or they analyze it solely through the lens of high-tier competitive play.

At least in my local meta, as soon as Marine infantry started consistently out-shooting and out-fighting most other infantry in the game thanks to points drops and Bolter Discipline, casual play started to become less enjoyable. It just wasn't until the supplements that things got ridiculous enough for tournament players to start to complain.

So I gotta ask, when you say Marine infantry, is this experience Classics, Primaris, baseline units or stuff like Aggressors? Because my impression is that "classics", and namely Tacs are pretty fine. Like, I think optimal marine balance is Classics with codex 2.0 and without 90% of the supplement stuff. Or something like that.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
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 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Which is against the sentiment of, I would dare say, most of the forum. So GW made them stronger.

But the chicken little about Intercessors is quite silly, because the rules Scotsman used for his analysis - all of the ones used - were exactly that way before the supplements by a good number of months.

But now, suddenly, that stat line is amaaaazzzziing. It's frankly a little ridiculous given the sentiment about Primaris from before supplements.

People just need to chill out until Big FAQ. If GW can't / don't / won't fix marines then you can go nuts.


Like I said before, this is less because Marines still sucked pre-2.0 and more that Marine players either ignore that period post-Bolter Discipline, post-CA18, but pre-2.0, or they analyze it solely through the lens of high-tier competitive play.

At least in my local meta, as soon as Marine infantry started consistently out-shooting and out-fighting most other infantry in the game thanks to points drops and Bolter Discipline, casual play started to become less enjoyable. It just wasn't until the supplements that things got ridiculous enough for tournament players to start to complain.


Exactly this.
Plus 1.0 codex traits should have applied to vehicle in line with other armies..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/25 01:11:02


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, I always thought the Marine statline was great. I'd have daydreams of Ork Nobs with the datasheet of a Tactical Marine (which even now is considered "awful").


What are you talking about? 3+ saves are bad, 2 wounds are bad. Too much glass!
   
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 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, I always thought the Marine statline was great. I'd have daydreams of Ork Nobs with the datasheet of a Tactical Marine (which even now is considered "awful").


It is great, traditionally. A Tac Marine has the toughness of an Ork at T4, the armor of a Heavy Aspect Warrior at 3+, is stronger than both at S4, and is more disciplined with AKSKNF. In turn they suffer from being fewer than Orks, and less specialized than Eldar. CSM were balanced at less disciplined, but potentially more individual power as granted by Marks or Cult status.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

So I gotta ask, when you say Marine infantry, is this experience Classics, Primaris, baseline units or stuff like Aggressors? Because my impression is that "classics", and namely Tacs are pretty fine. Like, I think optimal marine balance is Classics with codex 2.0 and without 90% of the supplement stuff. Or something like that.


The optimal marine balance is when they’re really hard to suppress and they’re very good at scoring critical hits even after they advance. Aaaaand they aren’t any of those things because those mechanics don’t exist in the game, we have stratagems and command points instead. So we just gotta have some extra bolter shots without having super doctrines

Like I said before, this is less because Marines still sucked pre-2.0 and more that Marine players either ignore that period post-Bolter Discipline, post-CA18, but pre-2.0, or they analyze it solely through the lens of high-tier competitive play.

At least in my local meta, as soon as Marine infantry started consistently out-shooting and out-fighting most other infantry in the game thanks to points drops and Bolter Discipline, casual play started to become less enjoyable. It just wasn't until the supplements that things got ridiculous enough for tournament players to start to complain.
yeah, this seems fine

(Re nested)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 00:59:40


 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, I always thought the Marine statline was great. I'd have daydreams of Ork Nobs with the datasheet of a Tactical Marine (which even now is considered "awful").


It is great, traditionally. A Tac Marine has the toughness of an Ork at T4, the armor of a Heavy Aspect Warrior at 3+, is stronger than both at S4, and is more disciplined with AKSKNF. In turn they suffer from being fewer than Orks, and less specialized than Eldar. CSM were balanced at less disciplined, but potentially more individual power as granted by Marks or Cult status.


Last time I checked an Ork Nob costed as much as an intercessor. Why should the nob not get a 3+ save and a 3+ BS?
   
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I think the real issue, and the reason for such disagreement, when it comes down to it, is the simple question. What should Space Marines be like on the tabletop?

Should they be generalist? Best at everything but few in number? Take whatever you believe they should be, and try to reason a balanced place for that role in the game, and you hit the roadblock. Generalists just such right now, and we've already had a meta with few-in-number unkillable factions (Hey 3++ Imperial Knights) and it was pretty abysmal for all involved. So where does that leave us?
   
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 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, I always thought the Marine statline was great. I'd have daydreams of Ork Nobs with the datasheet of a Tactical Marine (which even now is considered "awful").


It is great, traditionally. A Tac Marine has the toughness of an Ork at T4, the armor of a Heavy Aspect Warrior at 3+, is stronger than both at S4, and is more disciplined with AKSKNF. In turn they suffer from being fewer than Orks, and less specialized than Eldar. CSM were balanced at less disciplined, but potentially more individual power as granted by Marks or Cult status.


Last time I checked an Ork Nob costed as much as an intercessor. Why should the nob not get a 3+ save and a 3+ BS?


How many points do you think Nobs and Intercessors are? I am kinda curious.
   
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The reintroduction of AP to the game makes marines and other heavy infantry VERY difficult to cost.
   
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 Argive wrote:


You know.. this is whats been said since SM 2.0 dropped and yet.. here we are how many months? And CA2019 later.. CA 2019 could have absolutely adjusted some points _ they released comprehensive errata after all..
Its not happening until PA is done and the next proper full 2.0 codex comes out that will make marines look pedestrian in line with the power creep trend and that will start the new arms race.

Bear in mind FW books are incoming so I fully expect the character dreads stupidity to be curbed there (at least all the OOp options will be going legends or just vanishing)

But yes FAQ are sorely needed to really curb some of this nonsense down. But where on earth do you start where there is sooooo many layered rules??
Give everyone else T1 DS and infiltrate back would be a start.


Points won't get them out of this mess and there's two parts to it.

A) Community hopes
B) GW procedures

The community hopes that GW will address the issue as quickly as possible, but the reality is GW will address the problem during the procedure which is most appropriate - that being Spring FAQ (and 2 week FAQs).

We all wished they would have done it in CA through rules changes, but the reality is any planned and tested changes would not be ready in time. It is the same thing that happened with Castellans - they address the pieces of the problem mainly within the scope of their procedure only occasionally breaking to put points in the FAQs.

As for where to start? I dunno. I have a bunch of dumb, half-baked ideas.

- Super Docs replace normal docs. No more stacking.
- Super Docs last 1 turn. CP to make use of it once more.
- Increase CP of various strats -- 2 or 3 CP for extra stacking trait, etc
- Only 2 or 3 relics instead of infinite
- Change how CP is made available and prevent massive CP dumping

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 02:10:46


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
The reintroduction of AP to the game makes marines and other heavy infantry VERY difficult to cost.


They certainly handled that poorly. My personal opinion is:

Light Infantry should have 6+ Saves.

Heavy Infantry and Light Vehicles should have 4+ Saves.

Heavy Armor should have 2+ Saves.

Anything with a lot of shots and 1 Damage should have AP0.

Anything with Damage 2 and a middling amount of shots should have AP-1 or 2.

Anything with Damage 3 or greater and a low number of shots should have AP-3 or 4.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 02:08:49


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The D6 won't support AP mods imo. Needs to be D10 or D12.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 flandarz wrote:


Anything with a lot of shots and 1 Damage should have AP0.

Anything with Damage 2 and a middling amount of shots should have AP-1 or 2.

Anything with Damage 3 or greater and a low number of shots should have AP-3 or 4.


I think this blanderizes weapons far too much.
   
 
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