Switch Theme:

Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Martel732 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Hell yes they are. But delivery is a big issue.

Less so for classic Marines. Rhinos and Pods are great.

The Primaris Transports are either super expensive or just don't carry very many dudes.

I don't think people care as much about 1W marines getting close. They die so much faster.

A touched Leman Russ is a Lemasn Russ that can't fire next turn, it doesn't matter if it's a Dreadnought or a Termagant that touches it. And 1W Marines shoot harder than Intercessors up close. Heck, in most cases these days touched Intercessors are Intercessors that can't fire next turn. Don't be so afraid to lose Marines, if you win the game you can recover your casualties and slap bionics on them.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I only care because dead marines dont score vps. And id rather face a gunline that comes to me anytime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 19:07:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Grey40k wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


And just like the infuriating Eldar apologists in 7th, we now have a dedicated group of marine fanboys shifting wildly between declaring parity with every new rules release because "GW is just changing the power level of the game you guys, you'll get your stuff for sure!" and asserting "everything is fiiiine you guys just need to git gud if marines didn't have all this stuff they'd be so terrible why do you hate fluffy rules?"


From someone returning from a long hiatus: how much is it SM in general, and how much primaris and a few key other units?

Something I found absurd in 8th is the suppression of templates, together with these bubble effects that result in some seemingly OP combos that can't really be punished effectively.


Completely IMO, it's a couple of things.

Regular SM are pretty much fine with just their core rules.

Primaris are better, and even just taking their raw stats outperform a lot of their counterparts in other armies (as in the OP). Some units, like Aggressors, are really nasty, but have significant downsides to balance them out.

But when you start looking at all the ways Marines get to ignore core rules, like doctrines, super-doctrines, and chapter tactics, that's when things start to break down. Deep Strike normally comes with the significant downside of your DSers not arriving until T2, but Marines can not only DS turn 1 with Drop Pods, they can take traits to reduce the normal 9" distance restriction on DS and point-blank meltagun you right after deployment. Aggressors are a unit that can shoot twice if they stay stationary, but only having 24" range limits their lethality- but if they're played as Ultramarines they always count as stationary, so a unit of 3 gets to move and throw an average of 57 bolter shots for just 111pts (!). Or maybe they're infiltrating, so they pop up right in front of your front line and hose you down. Most units have at least AP-1 weapons and Doctrines allow anything to potentially have an extra point of AP, so even anti-chaff can pull double duty in anti-heavy-infantry/anti-light-armor as well.

They also have much easier access to significant buffs than most armies. 2CP and around a hundred points gets you characters to unlock re-roll auras on both to-hit and to-wound, significantly improving the already pretty high damage output. Plus they have more stratagems, relics, warlord traits, formations, and psychic powers than anyone else to choose from. And that's not even getting into the shenanigans Iron Hands can pull.

Basically- their base profiles overperform slightly for their cost, then they get a bunch of abilities (unit abilities + chapter tactics) to mitigate their weaknesses and ignore basic game restrictions, then they get potent chapter tactics (better than anyone else's subfaction traits) and the Doctrines system to boost them, and then they get supplement buffs that propel them to ludicrous levels, and on top of all that they also have excellent stratagems to further augment their abilities.

None of these alone would break the game, but the combination of all of them together propels Marines (and especially Primaris) to severely overperforming in both casual and competitive contexts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 19:12:17


   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:

If ITC start patching, GW stops letting them playtest, advertising them, covering their events. Balance for gw games would be wildly different and points adjustments in CA would make no sense in ITC land.


Do people go to ITC events because GW supports them, is the support that crucial for the current tournament scene?

I don't know, I have been away for many years.

In any case, I would argue that the harm done by poorly balanced rules is not minor either. As a returning player, I currently do not have much respect for tournament outcomes. Time and again the people at 40k stats have shown us how factions make a tremendous difference, and they shouldn't.

Ultimately, if tournaments are regarded as p2w by switching to whatever meta and buying whatever overpriced centeripiece, it might make them more harm than not appearing in the infomercials of warhammer community.

This is supposed to be a game about collecting, personalizing, and also playing armies. Not about 3d printing and rush painting armies to capitalize on whatever new rule disaster.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

If the disconnect between ITC houserules and everyone else gets too strong, people might actually stop playing the ITC houserules because you'd have to memorize two entirely different rulesets for playing them vs playing normal games. Right now, ITC's houserules are just different enough to effect balance in its own way, but not so different that it's like playing a completely different game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 19:13:20


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I agree with both previous posters completely.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Martel732 wrote:
I only care because dead marines dont score vps. And id rather face a gunline that comes to me anytime.

That's fair, and obviously I wouldn't use the same strategy vs. BA that I would against Guard

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Grey40k wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

If ITC start patching, GW stops letting them playtest, advertising them, covering their events. Balance for gw games would be wildly different and points adjustments in CA would make no sense in ITC land.


Do people go to ITC events because GW supports them, is the support that crucial for the current tournament scene?

I don't know, I have been away for many years.

In any case, I would argue that the harm done by poorly balanced rules is not minor either. As a returning player, I currently do not have much respect for tournament outcomes. Time and again the people at 40k stats have shown us how factions make a tremendous difference, and they shouldn't.

Ultimately, if tournaments are regarded as p2w by switching to whatever meta and buying whatever overpriced centeripiece, it might make them more harm than not appearing in the infomercials of warhammer community.

This is supposed to be a game about collecting, personalizing, and also playing armies. Not about 3d printing and rush painting armies to capitalize on whatever new rule disaster.


At the start of 8th edition FLG were highlighted as being a pillar of the hobby and given the chance to playtest for GW, so they directly input on the balance changes in the game. They also work closely with them for a US international presence, so FLG benefit fairly heavily I would assume in being viewed as the unofficial US gw peeps.

People don't attend ITC events because of the GW sponsorship but they do play in certain ways and try to show things to the rules team who attend to see their game in the wild. That would go and you'd go back to 6th ed gw not talking to the players and that confidence would be lost (as it already has by some people).

People will always just change to whatever is best at the time, it's meta chasing and quite common. It was the same even when ITC did do more patching previously.

The real headscratcher is why people want the guys doing the balance testing for GW to write rules to obtain balance. Since in theory either they sucked at doing it the first time round or something is really wrong.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:


At the start of 8th edition FLG were highlighted as being a pillar of the hobby and given the chance to playtest for GW, so they directly input on the balance changes in the game. They also work closely with them for a US international presence, so FLG benefit fairly heavily I would assume in being viewed as the unofficial US gw peeps.

People don't attend ITC events because of the GW sponsorship but they do play in certain ways and try to show things to the rules team who attend to see their game in the wild. That would go and you'd go back to 6th ed gw not talking to the players and that confidence would be lost (as it already has by some people).


Thanks for the explanation; as I said, I have been gone for many years.

People will always just change to whatever is best at the time, it's meta chasing and quite common. It was the same even when ITC did do more patching previously.

The real headscratcher is why people want the guys doing the balance testing for GW to write rules to obtain balance. Since in theory either they sucked at doing it the first time round or something is really wrong.


I would imagine that ITC would like to make the tournament scene more relevant. If you go reddit, or even around here, tournament play is not universally liked or even respected. Lots of people rightfully point towards the massive imbalances and the consta meta chasing, which I would argue goes heavily against the core values of the hobby.

It is not clear that it is in GW's interest to have balanced rules. The whole primaris intercessors design points in that direction (gotta sell the new guys). It is less clear why ITC would have a vested interest in writing poorly balanced rules.

It is quite obvious when rules are not balanced and news travel fast. On the one hand it is bad since abuses discovered by meta tourney players spread to lower levels of play, and on the other it is good since it becomes really obvious when such things occur.

Nowadays we have internet and lots of data, anyone can quickly figure out the imbalanced lists. Tons of metrics to quantify it, no longer acceptable to give silly "l2play" answers and be done with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 19:39:24


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Canadian 5th wrote:They don't make anything that would be willing to charge them think twice and anything they'd be happy to charge will just be glad that literally anything else didn't charge them instead.
I mean, 16 attacks on 5 guys, with a potential round of shooting and embedded melee weapon? I can think of many units that would be at least threatened by that - see any unit without high strength, high AP, high Damage weapons, which is most of them!

It's not about clearing hordes, or piercing armour - it's presenting a threat, and being able to make a pretty decent dent before they go down.


Even against GEQ a 5-man unit of Intercessors puts out between 4 and 5 unsaved wounds. That's not a threat worth worrying about.
And that's not including their shooting before, or that, for a non-melee unit, that's pretty damn solid.

I'll give you the speeders and scouts, but I suspect that the TFC was probably better off firing termor shells at something that actually mattered, ditto for the Eliminators having better targets as well.
If there was a lot of chaff, I'd rather be clearing them, instead of wasting single shot stalkers on them. With Eliminators, it depends. Can you see enemy leaders? What's their protection like? How much of an impact are they really going to have? Are those chaff units being a nuisance?

As we can see, strategy doesn't work in a vacuum.

They literally don't generate enough wounds to threaten anything worth threatening.
Putting wounds on ANYTHING is good enough, for a versatile Troops choice. I've not said for a second they exist to take out threatening targets alone. I'm saying that, for a basic Troops choice, they can do a hell of a lot.
There are very few things they wouldn't be better off shooting.
So do both? Stay at range, but don't be afraid to charge, even if just to deny the enemy's mobility.

Why barebones? You wouldn't compare naked Tacticals, so why naked Intercessors? Also, full strength Intercessors are 10 men. I know what you meant, but use the correct terminology please.


Nobody takes Intercessors with any upgrades aside from the Stalker Bolt Rifle
Demonstrably untrue, seeing as I run mine mostly at a 2:1 ratio of bolt to stalker bolt, and have at least a power sword on each Sergeant. They do fairly well, in my experience.

Quit the hyperbole, eh?
and even fewer people than that run them as 10-man units.
I'd still expect you to use the correct terminology.

Knights have 2 wounds, they actually do less than half kill a single night on average. I made a typo a put dead where it should have been wounded, but thanks for confirming that you literally didn't do the math for yourself.
Wait, so you made faulty maths? Why should I trust any of your points?

Except that they didn't do that, they put 0.833 wounds onto a pair of Knights that they charged and I made a typo.
I'd call that pretty damn good for a barebones Troops choice.
Remember, I'm not saying they're a "good melee unit". I'm saying they're a good "versatile" unit - aka, they can do something to properly kitted melee beasts, and be a serious threat to anything else.
Try actually doing the math before gloating next time.
Try doing correct maths before making a claim.

Also, if you're adding in a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer to every unit of Intercessors you're throwing away enough points to buy and/or upgrade a unit that's good at something. Don't throw good points after bad.
That would only be the case if Intercessors were bad.

Besides, the whole "don't upgrade something unless it's good" logic doesn't really work if the upgrade would make a substantial difference. A Space Marine Captain with a chainsword is a waste (obviously, by your logic, they shouldn't get the Teeth of Terra!), as are Vanguard Veterans.

Sarcasm aside, you'd be stupid to overlook the benefits of even a power sword on an Intercessor Sergeant. It adds a slew of AP attacks, and drastically improves the squad's matchup against any MEQ. A power fist takes this to far better levels, for only a slightly higher investment.

Insectum7 wrote:Ohhhhh, that's rich. So you, a non-player, are telling us actual players how it really is, huh? I think perhaps we can safely ignore you.
Literally, their entire argument just reads as "I read this battle report and crunch numbers, never heard of practical experience". And that's fine, but maybe they should be less arrogant about it?


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I dont stalker rifles at all, but lots of vanilla lists do i know. I need the autobolters to clear chaff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 19:57:38


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I like that there's this vast gulf of units that exist between "A thing that can instantly kill 5 T4 W2 3+ models in a single round of combat before they can punch back" and "a thing that can survive 16 WS3+ S4 AP- attacks plus whatever pistols and swings they make in the following turn" and all those units don't matter because they're bad.

Part of what makes marines so overpowering now is that you can't effectively tie them up. I can't tell you how many times the last few times I've played against MEQs that I haven't had the means to totally destroy a unit that I HAVE to destroy because it's going to start gaking out a billion AP-2 shots or double shooting or whatever the feth next turn and my fallback plan of tying them up has just failed because sweet primaris taekwondo moves and Overwatch demolish the squad that charged them. You charge them with 10 wyches with a net just to try and keep them occupied and don't even manage to kill one dude, then they attack back and 6 of your dedicated melee-only troops are fething gone before they even get to their turn when they get to either fall back or shoot you in the face with pistols, if you have anything left after the morale check.

If you could engage in these kinds of unit trades with disposable units and it was worth it to do so that'd be one thing, but gunline marine firepower has gotten so bonkers that by the time you've gotten there to lose in melee, half your gak has just been blown to bits by stupid aura-bubble bs.

It really is like playing against old meta Tau on steroids. At least fire warriors have the decency to die a bit before they finish tabling you.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Auras are a terrible mechanic. This is underscored by the new codex.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Auras are a terrible mechanic. This is underscored by the new codex.


Not enough counterplay to bubbles / castles, IMHO, from what I am seeing.

While templates were controversial, they punished bunching. When I watch a battle report and I see a blob of units I just get sad.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Losing blasts and templates fundamentally changed a lot.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






The best off-the-shelf aura bubble counter is to snipe them out with anothe marine unit. Yaaaaay.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tri-cornering. I hate it and my opponents usually hate it. But that's where GW has put us.


It is what it is. Although tbh with my Warriors it's often just completely surrounding whole units with multiple units of Warriors.


"It is what it is" lets GW off the hook for writing gak mechanics. Again.


No it is what it is because those are the rules. What do you suggest we do to not let them off the hook?


Ideally, stop using their rules. Practically, nothing.

No, you stop BUYING their rules. I've been saying this in 7th and apparently I need to start saying it again. Buying their product only rewards them for gakky rules writing and practices.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Buying or using, imo.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:
Auras are a terrible mechanic. This is underscored by the new codex.

Rerolling 1s isn't too bad, but rerolling everything is fething ridiculous.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
The best off-the-shelf aura bubble counter is to snipe them out with anothe marine unit. Yaaaaay.

Scouts are great. If you hate tacticals as much as Martel does, they're a no-brainer choice, and their ability to snipe important targets while sitting with a 2+ save on a backfield objective is amazing.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Insectum7 wrote:
The best off-the-shelf aura bubble counter is to snipe them out with anothe marine unit. Yaaaaay.

Vox scream. Until the cp runs out of course.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Melissia wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
The best off-the-shelf aura bubble counter is to snipe them out with anothe marine unit. Yaaaaay.

Scouts are great. If you hate tacticals as much as Martel does, they're a no-brainer choice, and their ability to snipe important targets while sitting with a 2+ save on a backfield objective is amazing.


Scouts are crap, too. Let's not kid ourselves here. 11 pts for a 4+ save and one wound? I only hate tacticals because they disintegrate even faster per point than primaris. I need bodies alive after 2 turns.

However, I'd argue both tacticals AND scouts are better than death company or most eldar infantry.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/25 21:01:47


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Oh I was talking the Sooper Dooper Primaris snipers that can shoot at your characters even if they don't have LOS to them because of course they can.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The ignore LoS ammo kills marine characters VERY slowly. I don't have that kind of time before IH or IF blows me apart. Or any other list apart, evidently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 21:09:26


 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Templates didn't punish castles as much as it punished hordes. The latter is fine. The former? Not so much. There DOES need to be a mechanic for dealing with aura bubbles though. Something like "when this weapon deals damage to a target, it also deals X MWs to another enemy unit within 6"." Or something like that. Then Ork, Nid, and Daemon horses remain viable, and you got a way to punish the Marine Captain hunkered up inside a bunch of Tacs.

And so I don't forget, I agree with what the others have said about Generalist units and will add that being able to go into CC or shoot at range and do both decently well adds a lot of flexibility to your army. And flexibility is (generally) a good thing.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Flexibility is great until the cost puts you at a huge disadvantage vs specialists. GW has now erred on both sides of generalists and failed to find a middle ground.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

I agree with the premise that overly efficient infantry are compromising the game balance but I don't think Intercessors are anything like the worst offender

I feel like there's a very narrow line between Intercessors being powerful and Intercessors being reduced to the same level of uselessness as Tactical Marines where in a meta where mediocre rifle infantry with no anti-monster/vehicle options whatsoever are pretty much deadweight, a tax, a blocker, or a more convenient and cheaper objective holder than anything else.

In my opinion Intercessors aren't the reason that I see absolutely zero reason to use my Guardsmen as anything other than blockers and minimum cost objective takers. The real reason is that Adeptus Custodes exist and in that match-up, taking an infantry focused list is basically an auto-lose situation because Custodes are so much more efficient at killing Guardsmen and absorbing their return fire than vice versa that you don't stand a chance. Taking the full monty of commanders, commissars and priests will make no difference where in previous editions a sizeable horde of Guardsmen would at the very least pose a serious threat to elite infantry by being able to kill a couple of models with some half-decent rolling because 2w elite models with 2+ saves were rare.

At the moment I'm considering whether to take a Wyvern in my next Guard list for an upcoming tournament and the only reason I'm stuck on whether to bother with it is because I know that in any matchup where I play Custodes, it's a total deadweight since it will statistically only do 1 wound to a Custodes for 113 points, and every single model in that army is always going to be at least toughness 5, 2+, 3 wounds. At least against Marines I'd be killing an Intercessor or 2 a turn with the buff setup I'm looking at, which would help wipe a backfield squad.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Custodes lose so hard to other meta armies, I'd probably just ignore their existence. I do when I build lists. Although guardsmen aren't super great vs marine gun lines. Can vanilla vet intercessors still go to rapid fire 2?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 21:37:58


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Auras are a terrible mechanic. This is underscored by the new codex.

Rerolling 1s isn't too bad, but rerolling everything is fething ridiculous.
Can't disagree with this.
Took a pretty standard list out, and the only real difference I did with it was play Master Artisans instead of Stalwart. My Lieutenant and Captain (either off-field or contributing elsewhere) were barely needed, by god did Master Artisans make failure near impossible.

The only two times I burned CP was to reroll the size of vehicle explosion (Repulsor explosion taking out nearly all the characters and guys around it with D6 MW? Awesome, but catastrophic) and a 4++ on a character who was already bound to die. Artisans took care of the rest.

I'd be more than happy to change that rule to one free reroll per phase, across the whole army, or just not play with it.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
Custodes lose so hard to other meta armies, I'd probably just ignore their existence. I do when I build lists. Although guardsmen aren't super great vs marine gun lines. Can vanilla vet intercessors still go to rapid fire 2?

Yeah any marine faction can use it. Bolter drill and doctrines finally put marines where they should be be. They should not have been losing ranged shooting battles against guardsmen. Marines should push over gaurdsmen like they weren't even there. Kind of like a knight with avenger Gatling cannon just pushes over primaries like they weren't even there.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: