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Martel732 wrote:
GW should 100% outsource the rules. Theyve proven for eight editions now that they dont have a clue.

One can dream.

 Ishagu wrote:
They know how to make a successful product.

Perfectly balanced rules don't really mean as much as you think in that equation. The game is fun, but it might not be for you.

Maybe find a different hobby.

Also this is a completely optional, luxury product. Yes. Love it or leave it. It's not mandatory for you life.

No one is asking for perfection. Just dont let gak like IH out the door.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think some people literally can't comprehend the fact that GW never made their success around rules. It's funny how single minded some people are.

They are better than the past, but the ruled are only one of the things they focus on, and it's not their main focus.

Which loops nicely back into "why treat something where rules are secondary/for funsies as the ultimate competitive game".

Then why have rules for sale at all if you can just go "pewpew" and remove models as necessary?

Not everything has to be 100% one way or another.

Rules are a part of their product. They aren't the main focus of it.

I don't think 40k is the game for you. Sell your models and find a different hobby.

Love it or leave it fallacy. GW should 100% outsource the rules. Theyve proven for eight editions now that they dont have a clue.

Use rules from a different system with your GW minis, problem solved?

On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

Fair enough. I wish i had that kind of time

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

You DO realize how hard that is, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

You DO realize how hard that is, right?

Nigh impossible.
Especially if Fantasy or sci fi if there is not another Group allready.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

So you enter the store, say you want to play game X, that no one plays it, the store owner doesn't run it. You would have to be really liked and supply the models for people to even try the game, and the store owner would have to be okey with it. Playing a non GW system, with GW models at a store that runs GW stuff, is not going to happen very often.

FLG created the ITC basically whole cloth in response to GWs rules. It's not impossible to create your own dedicated group of players who all broadly agree on how the game should be played.

Changing systems entirely, while using the same models will be harder than that, but with dedication and patience, it could be done.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
A final note for me and this thread.

How Elite is a marine supposed to feel?

How Elite did you feel when you playing as Captain Titus?

That's how Elite a Marine is supposed to feel. (From a fluff POV of course).

A: A Marine Captain is more elite than an ordinary Marine.

B: Did you have to reload at any point because you died?

C: Did you ever find yourself in open terrain facing tanks/knights as can happen on the tabletop?


Marines don't feel as elite on the tabletop because of the pitched nature of the game and the removal of fog of war. But imagine if your Tactical Squad is in dense terrain against traitor Guardmen, and can pick through enemy units one at a time, backed up by organized fire support.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
On paper sure, but lack of community is a big problem.

So create that community.

Be the change you want to see.

You DO realize how hard that is, right?

More productive than complaining on a 3rd party site.

If they want GW to change, they should contact GW directly through their allocated media channels, or vote with their wallet. If GW isn't doing anything for them, then they should step away from the hobby, for their own mental health. If they want community support, they can't just expect it to come out of nowhere.
Put in the work (and believe me, it's hard work, not denying that), and maybe you'll get what you want. But complaining about it and doing nothing to help create it isn't going to magically solve everything.

Meant with all due respect.

Karol wrote:So you enter the store, say you want to play game X, that no one plays it, the store owner doesn't run it. You would have to be really liked and supply the models for people to even try the game, and the store owner would have to be okey with it. Playing a non GW system, with GW models at a store that runs GW stuff, is not going to happen very often.

Find a different store, or encourage people within that store to play it. And yes, that may include having to supply the initial rules and models/proxy models to do it, but that's how you involve people in a game they might not be invested in.
When I try and get people involved in other game systems (30k, Kill Team, Legion, Dreadball, D&D, etc) I make sure that I have material for at least two players, so I can teach one-on-one, or have two people play, and oversee them both. If it doesn't work out, then I still enjoyed myself painting models. If it does work out, then I've got someone else I can play with/against.

Of course, you can't expect a GW owned store to do it, like how you can't go into a fast food store and eat food from a rival chain, but a 3rd party store, or even playing another GW game in a GW store (Necromunda/Warcry) should all be fine. And if they're not, you then know what store not to give your patronage.

It's all a question of how much effort you're willing/able to put in to get people involved.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
FLG created the ITC basically whole cloth in response to GWs rules. It's not impossible to create your own dedicated group of players who all broadly agree on how the game should be played.

Exactly. While I have no love for the ITC, and maintain that it is a homebrew system separate from GW's own priorities, it is proof that communities based on homebrew 40k rules can, and do, gain traction.

Other examples are the Centurion ruleset in 30k, and the Combat Patrol/Escalation campaign system for regular 40k. While both are only organisational changes to how the game is played, not a wholesale rebuild from a ground up, they're still widely recognised rulesets. Heralds of Ruin's own Kill Team rules are a similar example of an even more distinct ruleset.

Building your own homebrew ruleset for 40k models is absolutely possible. Marketing it, and gaining widespread distribution is harder, but also possible. Create PDF rules, with easy web access. Post battle reports through various channels and social media pages (Twitter, Facebook, instagram, Reddit, forum sites, Youtube, etc). Just *talk* about your ruleset, get in contact with people with larger online presences and ask if they'd like to try out and review your system.

All just suggestions for real change.

Find a different store, or encourage people within that store to play it. And yes, that may include having to supply the initial rules and models/proxy models to do it, but that's how you involve people in a game they might not be invested in.
When I try and get people involved in other game systems (30k, Kill Team, Legion, Dreadball, D&D, etc) I make sure that I have material for at least two players, so I can teach one-on-one, or have two people play, and oversee them both. If it doesn't work out, then I still enjoyed myself painting models. If it does work out, then I've got someone else I can play with/against.

Of course, you can't expect a GW owned store to do it, like how you can't go into a fast food store and eat food from a rival chain, but a 3rd party store, or even playing another GW game in a GW store (Necromunda/Warcry) should all be fine. And if they're not, you then know what store not to give your patronage.

It's all a question of how much effort you're willing/able to put in to get people involved.

We have one GW store in the entire country, and you can't even play games there besides demo games. Also I think the saturation with FLGS in other countries has to be way higher, closers other store to me is a 6 hours away trip by bus, and that is just one way, then I would have to return and the way buses go around here, I would have to reach the store, play a game and get back to the station in 30 min or I miss the last bus back, and then I would miss a night check at the dorm.

maybe doable for people that have good income. I struggle to get the stuff I need for my army, no way am I going to buy two other so others maybe will play. It is bad enough to have a so-so army of your own, it is another to buy models and never get to use them. That would litteraly be wasting money.

Karol wrote:
We have one GW store in the entire country, and you can't even play games there besides demo games.

No games beyond demos in a GW store? Not doubting you, but that sounds like a pretty ridiculous store management policy. Where does everyone play games with the models bought there? Third party stores? At home?

Also I think the saturation with FLGS in other countries has to be way higher, closers other store to me is a 6 hours away trip by bus, and that is just one way, then I would have to return and the way buses go around here, I would have to reach the store, play a game and get back to the station in 30 min or I miss the last bus back, and then I would miss a night check at the dorm.

So the closest gaming place for you is a GW that doesn't let you play their own games there?

maybe doable for people that have good income.

I have no income bar what I've saved before unemployment. I'm capable of it.

I struggle to get the stuff I need for my army, no way am I going to buy two other so others maybe will play. It is bad enough to have a so-so army of your own, it is another to buy models and never get to use them. That would litteraly be wasting money.

Most games tend to have a starter box that is cheaper than GWs. Failing that, even something as small as a unit and a leader, or a handful of models in smaller sized games like Necromunda, is a fine starting place, enough to get a feeling of how the game's base mechanics function, and the pace of play. You don't need full armies to learn to play. When I run 40k demos, I usually do a 25PL list, with at least an HQ and Troops, and then throw in something else.

Again, I can't speak for your financial situation, but if you can afford new GW minis, you can afford new minis from another company. If you can't afford new GW minis, and you're not enjoying GW, then, as I've said above, it's important to step away from GW if it's causing more stress than it's worth, be that just shelving models, or selling them.

But as for the main issue of "how can I create a homebrew 40k ruleset and get it widely played", all you *need* is an internet connection, and people to talk to. No investment, no money needed. It's not easy, no, but it's infinitely better than hoping someone else does it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
We have one GW store in the entire country, and you can't even play games there besides demo games.

No games beyond demos in a GW store? Not doubting you, but that sounds like a pretty ridiculous store management policy. Where does everyone play games with the models bought there? Third party stores? At home?...

You haven't encountered GW's hole-in-the-wall one-man stores without enough space to put a full 6'x4' table? I've run into them in a couple of US states now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
We have one GW store in the entire country, and you can't even play games there besides demo games.

No games beyond demos in a GW store? Not doubting you, but that sounds like a pretty ridiculous store management policy. Where does everyone play games with the models bought there? Third party stores? At home?...

You haven't encountered GW's hole-in-the-wall one-man stores without enough space to put a full 6'x4' table? I've run into them in a couple of US states now.

Thankfully not, GW stores around here usually have two demo tables (AoS and 40k), and at least one regular table for people to book in.

It's usually the 3rd party places that lack the table room over here.

Same here, but I did see a store that had no space when I took a trip to Aussielandia.

GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Table wrote:
GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Can you say porn a few more times, I was unclear as to the point you were making.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Table wrote:
GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Can you say porn a few more times, I was unclear as to the point you were making.

How many more porns would you like? I aim to please.

Table wrote:
GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Marines have always been billed as an elite army, compared to say, guard, eldar etc.
the problem is that there's not much room to really define the differances at the scale 40k is played at now.

if you compare the base stat line of space marines to Guard, eldar, or ork obyz, (they and space marines I consider essentially the core original armies) space Marines do have a pretty solid advantage, the problem is that there's so much anti-tank around these days those added stats seem irrelevant. I mean Marines, of both stripes DO feel pretty elite in say.. kill team

BrianDavion wrote:

Table wrote:
GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Marines have always been billed as an elite army, compared to say, guard, eldar etc.
the problem is that there's not much room to really define the differances at the scale 40k is played at now.

if you compare the base stat line of space marines to Guard, eldar, or ork obyz, (they and space marines I consider essentially the core original armies) space Marines do have a pretty solid advantage, the problem is that there's so much anti-tank around these days those added stats seem irrelevant. I mean Marines, of both stripes DO feel pretty elite in say.. kill team

Agreed. Reivers for instance are actually scary in kill team. Primaris marines that are good at hunting GEQs in melee are actually useful in that game especially in arena when they can deep strike.

BrianDavion wrote:

Table wrote:
GW has a huge problem that it makes for itself. It has become reliant on drawing in new and yes, younger players with marine porn. And marine porn can be fun, if that is your kink, which it is for most people if we look at sales figures.

Anyhow, the problem is that Marine porn builds unrealistic expectations in the SM player base. They read the fluff and expect to drive all xenos and heretics before them, and rightfully so when you look at the content of that fluff.

You need non-SM (Imperial) factions to make a game that isnt a 40k version of the HH.
And people dont like placing down models just to remove them for the pleasure of the other player (and rightfully so). And if we pay attention to the Bolter porn, thats exactly what you are expected to do.

So, to balance things out SM's can never "feel" like they do in the porn. And that will lead to bad feelings for newer players that have been raised on it. So how "elite" should marines feel to play? They shouldnt. The ridiculous lore should be wrangled in. I find the current stat lines makes marines about as elite as they should be.

Marines have always been billed as an elite army, compared to say, guard, eldar etc.
the problem is that there's not much room to really define the differances at the scale 40k is played at now.

if you compare the base stat line of space marines to Guard, eldar, or ork obyz, (they and space marines I consider essentially the core original armies) space Marines do have a pretty solid advantage, the problem is that there's so much anti-tank around these days those added stats seem irrelevant. I mean Marines, of both stripes DO feel pretty elite in say.. kill team

Elite is one thing. But some players (even CSM players) act like a single marine should be wiping out models left and right. And the TT game can never represent the lore. Because a space marine in the lore is a demi god of war. On the TT they are a solid high AS toughness 4 unit.

 Da Boss wrote:
They are definitely incompetent. They have also made their job harder, with faction bloat of lots of pretty much identical factions, but that is also part of the incompetence and lack of overall control and vision for the product.

They have improved, in that they now update the game every now and then with "FAQs" which are actually rules errata or balance fixes, but this is a cover for sloppy design and incompetence. It is better than NOT having errata, but I still find the the studio unprofessional and worthy of scorn and contempt.

People with low standards who are happy with this slop can continue to enjoy it of course. Good for them.

Posts like this are silly. Starts reasonable enough then decides to pre-mock any opposing views. Utterly disingenuous.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
They are definitely incompetent. They have also made their job harder, with faction bloat of lots of pretty much identical factions, but that is also part of the incompetence and lack of overall control and vision for the product.

They have improved, in that they now update the game every now and then with "FAQs" which are actually rules errata or balance fixes, but this is a cover for sloppy design and incompetence. It is better than NOT having errata, but I still find the the studio unprofessional and worthy of scorn and contempt.

People with low standards who are happy with this slop can continue to enjoy it of course. Good for them.

Posts like this are silly. Starts reasonable enough then decides to pre-mock any opposing views. Utterly disingenuous.

Where's the lie though? Right now we have players here and WH Community themselves defending the gak writing for Ghaz as we post.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
They are definitely incompetent. They have also made their job harder, with faction bloat of lots of pretty much identical factions, but that is also part of the incompetence and lack of overall control and vision for the product.

They have improved, in that they now update the game every now and then with "FAQs" which are actually rules errata or balance fixes, but this is a cover for sloppy design and incompetence. It is better than NOT having errata, but I still find the the studio unprofessional and worthy of scorn and contempt.

People with low standards who are happy with this slop can continue to enjoy it of course. Good for them.

Posts like this are silly. Starts reasonable enough then decides to pre-mock any opposing views. Utterly disingenuous.

Where's the lie though? Right now we have players here and WH Community themselves defending the gak writing for Ghaz as we post.

What's wrong with Ghaz?

Is it that you don't think he's worth it? Or that you don't like that he doesn't get certain benefits?

How have we determined that this is sloppy or incompetence? It seems to me that they much prefer to not give a model that can limit damage like he does (and heal) a FNP. Advance and charge is pretty irrelevant considering Tellyporta.

Ghaz is one of the more unique and interesting design choices GW has made and people are at the ready to gak all over it before the attached PA book is even out, too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
They are definitely incompetent. They have also made their job harder, with faction bloat of lots of pretty much identical factions, but that is also part of the incompetence and lack of overall control and vision for the product.

They have improved, in that they now update the game every now and then with "FAQs" which are actually rules errata or balance fixes, but this is a cover for sloppy design and incompetence. It is better than NOT having errata, but I still find the the studio unprofessional and worthy of scorn and contempt.

People with low standards who are happy with this slop can continue to enjoy it of course. Good for them.

Posts like this are silly. Starts reasonable enough then decides to pre-mock any opposing views. Utterly disingenuous.

Where's the lie though? Right now we have players here and WH Community themselves defending the gak writing for Ghaz as we post.

What's wrong with Ghaz?

Is it that you don't think he's worth it? Or that you don't like that he doesn't get certain benefits?

How have we determined that this is sloppy or incompetence? It seems to me that they much prefer to not give a model that can limit damage like he does (and heal) a FNP. Advance and charge is pretty irrelevant considering Tellyporta.

Ghaz is one of the more unique and interesting design choices GW has made and people are at the ready to gak all over it before the attached PA book is even out, too.

He doesn't get benefits from his own aura, nor does he affect even Bikers. He's sloppily written, period. There's no "unique and interesting" argument you can make here.

Only being able to take 4 Damage per phase is unique.

I'm not saying Ghaz couldn't have some improvements, but he does have unique and interesting features.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only being able to take 4 Damage per phase is unique.

I'm not saying Ghaz couldn't have some improvements, but he does have unique and interesting features.

So in other words, instead of dying T1, he dies on T2 instead. That's really no more unique than Roboute coming back from the dead.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get benefits from his own aura, nor does he affect even Bikers. He's sloppily written, period. There's no "unique and interesting" argument you can make here.

Again - there's a difference between "sloppy" and "GW didn't do what I want / expect".

There are also plenty of Ork HQs bound to just INFANTRY or just BIKES as well. I mean his original aura was INFANTRY only for gaks sake.