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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

There's a new strategem that gives a warboss +1 attack and a 4++. Happy now?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

There's a new strategem that gives a warboss +1 attack and a 4++. Happy now?

Even a Warboss without that is still worth taking over Ghaz. A Warboss that can't get anywhere is pointless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

There's a new strategem that gives a warboss +1 attack and a 4++. Happy now?

Even a Warboss without that is still worth taking over Ghaz. A Warboss that can't get anywhere is pointless.

If only we could have some sort of rule that let you set up models closer to the enemy. We could call it "Profound Assault" or some synonym thereof. Alas...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

A statement without arguments doesn't hold much weight.

Why do you think that that rule is not good design?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

on one side, i am happy that he has something like that, because bigger then 9 W model charachters really suffered from beeing targetable.
Otoh, i can understand that people are frustrated with this as a defensive mechanic since it flat out denies damage after a certain threshold.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

There's a new strategem that gives a warboss +1 attack and a 4++. Happy now?

Even a Warboss without that is still worth taking over Ghaz. A Warboss that can't get anywhere is pointless.

If only we could have some sort of rule that let you set up models closer to the enemy. We could call it "Profound Assault" or some synonym thereof. Alas...

They have Deep Strike with the Tellyporta, and then Ghaz has a 55~% chance to make a charge. For ONE unit at what is probably over 200 points that's hardly worth it.


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Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

on one side, i am happy that he has something like that, because bigger then 9 W model charachters really suffered from beeing targetable.
Otoh, i can understand that people are frustrated with this as a defensive mechanic since it flat out denies damage after a certain threshold.

GW amped up the killing potential of everything. Hell, they couldn't be bothered to use their new wounding chart close to creatively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

There's a new strategem that gives a warboss +1 attack and a 4++. Happy now?

Also I saw that not too long ago. Now Ghaz is pointless for anything besides sitting pretty on a shelf.

I might totally overestimate the worth of that but doesn't that mean that Ghazzy can be really annoying for armies planning on Smitespam and other psychic powers that must target the nearest enemy unit? Just from an inexperiences sideglance at Grey Knights or thousand sons: if an orc player manages to position Ghazzy in a way that he is the closest visible enemy model for at least most of the Psyker units, they can "only" hit him with 4 MWs a turn (if it all, he might already have lost those 4 wounds in the shooting phase) and then fail to do any more. They cannot kill him that turn, even if its Magnus with a bunch of buddies and might (!) not be able to reposition in a way to target another orc unit.

And its not just Smite, Vortex of Doom for example (Sanctic discipline) also has to target the nearest unit and there are definitly more of those...

He'd be annoying to them for exactly 1 turn. Between shooting, those smites, and a charge, he'll be dead before turn 2.

 flandarz wrote:
He'd be annoying to them for exactly 1 turn. Between shooting, those smites, and a charge, he'll be dead before turn 2.

Your making this out to be way easier than it actually is. Smites still target the closest model, if you'll recall. There is likely no way for you to smite with boyz filling in around him. SOME armies might have the tools,. but he's healing and there's lots of unknown potential benefits in the PA book.

sorry, I missread the "per phase" as "per turn". So my comment that he would not loose wounds in the psychic phase when he already lost for in the shooting phase makes no sense.
Still, he is a character that, if he has 5+ wounds at the start of the psychic phase, is unkillable in that phase.

Well, the "annoyance" referred to was Ghaz soaking the Smites, so that's what my answer was in regards to.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
He'd be annoying to them for exactly 1 turn. Between shooting, those smites, and a charge, he'll be dead before turn 2.

Your making this out to be way easier than it actually is. Smites still target the closest model, if you'll recall. There is likely no way for you to smite with boyz filling in around him. SOME armies might have the tools,. but he's healing and there's lots of unknown potential benefits in the PA book.

In which case he still won't be a danger because he can't keep up with the boys that advance and charge! Please put him behind a failing wall of boyz!

Pyroalchi wrote:
I might totally overestimate the worth of that but doesn't that mean that Ghazzy can be really annoying for armies planning on Smitespam and other psychic powers that must target the nearest enemy unit? Just from an inexperiences sideglance at Grey Knights or thousand sons: if an orc player manages to position Ghazzy in a way that he is the closest visible enemy model for at least most of the Psyker units, they can "only" hit him with 4 MWs a turn

Wouldn't the other player just move some/all of their psykers so that they were closer to other units?

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

A statement without arguments doesn't hold much weight.

Why do you think that that rule is not good design?

40k has a fundamental problem with "characters" where the fact that without the 9-wound-or-less closest-target protection you can shoot them with as many lascannons as you like, which means anything that isn't either under 10 wounds or as big as a Daemon Primarch just gets shot.

Extending the design space of the game by introducing new mechanics to band-aid patch over the problem instead of going back and fixing the problem is how rules bloat happens (the game becomes a stack of band-aid patches over a shaky foundation), which is how we got to the mess that was 7e and the resulting reboot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New defense characteristic is hardly an inspired design.

A statement without arguments doesn't hold much weight.

Why do you think that that rule is not good design?

40k has a fundamental problem with "characters" where the fact that without the 9-wound-or-less closest-target protection you can shoot them with as many lascannons as you like, which means anything that isn't either under 10 wounds or as big as a Daemon Primarch just gets shot.

Extending the design space of the game by introducing new mechanics to band-aid patch over the problem instead of going back and fixing the problem is how rules bloat happens (the game becomes a stack of band-aid patches over a shaky foundation), which is how we got to the mess that was 7e and the resulting reboot.

I know this isn't necessarily the main issue but I do think that Wounds are a terrible characteristic to base this particular mechanic on. Mainly because they tend to bear almost no resemblance to the actual size of the model. e.g. many 5-wound characters are no larger than 1-wound infantry, and are actually smaller than, for example, 2-wound bikers or Terminators. At the upper end of the scale, the difference in size between Guilliman and a Hive Tyrant seems negligible, yet one can hide behind guardsmen and the other can't hide at all.

It seems like strength or toughness would be more sensible, with characters being unable to hide behind models with toughness that's 2 or more pts lower than their own. So a T6 character could hide behind T5+ models but not behind T4 or T3 models.

Of course, this would still be a binary system regarding whether or not a model can or can't be shot at, just with more nuance in terms of what units a given model can realistically hide amongst.

If we were making things less granular, what do you think would be reasonable? Some sort of penalty to hit for models that are close to other units? A 'Look Out Sir!' type rule?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In which case he still won't be a danger because he can't keep up with the boys that advance and charge! Please put him behind a failing wall of boyz!

Yea, I mean I'd actually deepstrike him, but that's the premise as laid out by others.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In which case he still won't be a danger because he can't keep up with the boys that advance and charge! Please put him behind a failing wall of boyz!

Yea, I mean I'd actually deepstrike him, but that's the premise as laid out by others.

And then he's still slow. A regular Warboss would just keep up or not be a sitting duck if you missed the charge. Ghaz doesn't offer anything.

Think we have drifted a little far afield of the topic here.

Okay lets get back on topic. Marine design is bad.

They have propelled the game of 40k into this bizarre i-out-ap-you war. A game where -1 AP on gauss rifles used to be a cool-and-special thing is now flat out below standard, as basic mehreens have access to longer ranged and more armor penetrating rounds because of,,, what? "Doctrines"?

Every faction in the game feels like they can compare themselves directly to Mehreens and come out worse off. To use my earlier example, Necron AP isn't special or unique, Imperial Fists have Tesla on base AP weapons. Dakka dakka is worse than IF, Eldar fall back and charge? Lol, Ultramarines have that - with more range, ap and saves. This "Marines are the elitesterest!" effect completely ruins the reason to play other armies. Ork Boyz? Blood angels hit more and harder. Rubrics? Basic mehreen infantry is better. Chaos? Intercessors eat them for breakfast etc etc etc.

This prolific rules arms race is *all* because each flavour of marines has to be its own special snowflake, and different to each other - this difference is sadly made while disregarding the rulesets *every other* faction has.

I feel like this is the beginning of a ridiculous arms race of bandaid invulnerables and rules to build a wall around marines. And they'll be the ones paying for it.

How is Dakka worse than Imperial Fists? If Ork pricing was better on the shooting I'd say they're equal, as it DOES affect all weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is Dakka worse than Imperial Fists? If Ork pricing was better on the shooting I'd say they're equal, as it DOES affect all weapons.

That's why.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is Dakka worse than Imperial Fists? If Ork pricing was better on the shooting I'd say they're equal, as it DOES affect all weapons.

That's why.

That's not necessarily discussing why one rule is worse than the other, though.

Pyroalchi wrote:
I might totally overestimate the worth of that but doesn't that mean that Ghazzy can be really annoying for armies planning on Smitespam and other psychic powers that must target the nearest enemy unit? Just from an inexperiences sideglance at Grey Knights or thousand sons: if an orc player manages to position Ghazzy in a way that he is the closest visible enemy model for at least most of the Psyker units, they can "only" hit him with 4 MWs a turn (if it all, he might already have lost those 4 wounds in the shooting phase) and then fail to do any more. They cannot kill him that turn, even if its Magnus with a bunch of buddies and might (!) not be able to reposition in a way to target another orc unit.

And its not just Smite, Vortex of Doom for example (Sanctic discipline) also has to target the nearest unit and there are definitly more of those...

I mean, I can think of a much, MUCH, MUUUUUUUUUUUCH cheaper points-per-wound alternative that ork armies have to soak up smite spam mortal wounds....

psssst

....it's the orks.


Mortal wounds are only 1/6 more effective than regular AP- wounds against orks.


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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Okay lets get back on topic. Marine design is bad.

They have propelled the game of 40k into this bizarre i-out-ap-you war. A game where -1 AP on gauss rifles used to be a cool-and-special thing is now flat out below standard, as basic mehreens have access to longer ranged and more armor penetrating rounds because of,,, what? "Doctrines"?

Every faction in the game feels like they can compare themselves directly to Mehreens and come out worse off. To use my earlier example, Necron AP isn't special or unique, Imperial Fists have Tesla on base AP weapons. Dakka dakka is worse than IF, Eldar fall back and charge? Lol, Ultramarines have that - with more range, ap and saves. This "Marines are the elitesterest!" effect completely ruins the reason to play other armies. Ork Boyz? Blood angels hit more and harder. Rubrics? Basic mehreen infantry is better. Chaos? Intercessors eat them for breakfast etc etc etc.

This prolific rules arms race is *all* because each flavour of marines has to be its own special snowflake, and different to each other - this difference is sadly made while disregarding the rulesets *every other* faction has.

I feel like this is the beginning of a ridiculous arms race of bandaid invulnerables and rules to build a wall around marines. And they'll be the ones paying for it.

Yep. I have no doubt that whatever book Harlequins come out in, there'll be some kind of bonkers-ass ability designed to help harlequins screw over marines because right now, dedicated glass-cannon anti-MEQ assault unit Harlequins lose in melee to intercessors even when they get the charge off.

And what will that mean? it'll mean harlequins will absolutely blow away Necrons, Custodes, CSM, etc because the new "baseline" unit they're trying to compete with is so bonkers.

Or they could go the easier way and give Harleys some D2 melee weapon which is perfect to counter primaris but doesn't invalidate other elite infantries?

Spoletta wrote:
Or they could go the easier way and give Harleys some D2 melee weapon which is perfect to counter primaris but doesn't invalidate other elite infantries?

Yeah, because that's both the sort of thing they've been adding in PA and also no other elite infantry has W2.

Not many actually. Or at least, not many infantries have both 2W and high armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9c_PbdfD4

This elite

Seem to remember some novel, I think it was Blood Gorgon where a CSM (he was to all intents and purposes a loyalist in spiky armour) slaughters his way through an entire squad of Dark Eldar, Incubi and Plague Marines, instigating a planetary rebellion and countless other impressive feats along the way. Thats how I image space marines, not guardsmen+ with a lot of faith. That being said, clearly something needs to change, rules =/= fluff

Yazima wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9c_PbdfD4

This elite

Seem to remember some novel, I think it was Blood Gorgon where a CSM (he was to all intents and purposes a loyalist in spiky armour) slaughters his way through an entire squad of Dark Eldar, Incubi and Plague Marines, instigating a planetary rebellion and countless other impressive feats along the way. Thats how I image space marines, not guardsmen+ with a lot of faith. That being said, clearly something needs to change, rules =/= fluff

That video is great, but it's actually not that elite.

They're doing what I described a few pages back, assymetric warfare to maximise their superiorities.

But really, that video shows a squad of marines killing nothing but guardsmen and only 2 weapons are deployed that could threaten them in a single shot and the marines receive and hide quickly rather than just waiting for the scatter laser to penetrate for example.


When you breakdown Astartes, it does what marines SHOULD do, but it doesn't do what the fanwank and worst GW books say they do.

Hellebore wrote:

Yazima wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9c_PbdfD4

This elite

Seem to remember some novel, I think it was Blood Gorgon where a CSM (he was to all intents and purposes a loyalist in spiky armour) slaughters his way through an entire squad of Dark Eldar, Incubi and Plague Marines, instigating a planetary rebellion and countless other impressive feats along the way. Thats how I image space marines, not guardsmen+ with a lot of faith. That being said, clearly something needs to change, rules =/= fluff

That video is great, but it's actually not that elite.

They're doing what I described a few pages back, assymetric warfare to maximise their superiorities.

But really, that video shows a squad of marines killing nothing but guardsmen and only 2 weapons are deployed that could threaten them in a single shot and the marines receive and hide quickly rather than just waiting for the scatter laser to penetrate for example.


When you breakdown Astartes, it does what marines SHOULD do, but it doesn't do what the fanwank and worst GW books say they do.

Yeah, that's what makes Astartes so good. It portrays astartes as they should be. Elite shock troops acting like elite shock troops, not fething super heroes.

Hellebore wrote:

Yazima wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9c_PbdfD4

This elite

Seem to remember some novel, I think it was Blood Gorgon where a CSM (he was to all intents and purposes a loyalist in spiky armour) slaughters his way through an entire squad of Dark Eldar, Incubi and Plague Marines, instigating a planetary rebellion and countless other impressive feats along the way. Thats how I image space marines, not guardsmen+ with a lot of faith. That being said, clearly something needs to change, rules =/= fluff

That video is great, but it's actually not that elite.

They're doing what I described a few pages back, assymetric warfare to maximise their superiorities.

But really, that video shows a squad of marines killing nothing but guardsmen and only 2 weapons are deployed that could threaten them in a single shot and the marines receive and hide quickly rather than just waiting for the scatter laser to penetrate for example.


When you breakdown Astartes, it does what marines SHOULD do, but it doesn't do what the fanwank and worst GW books say they do.

Tbh I was just using this thread as a vector to share this incredible video. I agree with you of course, this is a relatively low-level threat for sure, I just love the brutal, overwhelming efficiency that bleeds off the space marines. They seem utterly unstoppable, utterly ruthless. The traitors, competent as they are don't stand a chance no matter what they try. It really seems like the astartes are on autopilot. Even when they come up against the potent psykers they hammer their way through in silence, pausing only to sheath their weapons. It looks elite to me, its fluid, intuitive and utterly unstoppable. Nothing they face fazes them for even a moment