Gw"s future plans for csm

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**Slayer-Fan123**

ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

Which is part of the problem. The Angels don't have that much fluff that hasn't been covered in the same manner as other Chapters. The fact GW thinks there's a need for this many codices is ridiculous.
#saynotobloat

**Daedalus81**

ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

So you just arbitrarily decide that no Chaos player wants fluff in their book(s)?

Are we also dumping daemons?

Daemons - pages 84 to 136 for all units, traits, strats, artefacts, powers, points, and objectives. 52 pages.
Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
CSM - pages 118 to 176. 58 pages.
F&F (or did you forget?) - pages 56 to 95. 39 pages.
Vigilus (whoops, you forgot again) - pages 180 to 200. 20 pages.
RotD (ooops) - pages 76 to 86. 10 pages.
PA for DG???

253 pages on just rules. Even if you could reduce that by 20 or 40 it is still larger than any other codex, doesn't have ANY fluff, and doesn't address how many interactions and unit selections would be forbidden among the more isolated legions.

**Insectum7**

pelicaniforce wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
The 3.5 Chaos Codex is one book, paperback and was maybe 25$ new. Not 7 books with way more options than necessary/flavorful, etc. 3.5 book Also included Daemons.

Best Marine book was 4th Ed. Marine, which had chapter customization, included successor chapters, and no Primaris.

Maybe what I "wished for" was a codex style that covered all the necessary options and flavor in one book. More options, more flavor, fewer pages. Concision.

The 2002 dex didn’t cover all the options. It covered the models really well, like the daemon prince and the raptors, and some say the daemonettes. Except in the rules raptors didn’t really work. The “concision” of being really good in the army list construction phase of the game meant that just getting raptors to fit in an army, or the various types of chosen (all-champion cavalry, or Tzeentch anything) was never worked out. Cult armies couldn’t even take raptors, despite the fact that they were supposedly a separate, allied cult unit even in undivided armies. Mainly their rules just didn’t mean anything and that’s probably why they continue to have such weird treatment, eg the silly lightning claw unit and the hapless mook unit.

They had the tools, the codex could have made raptors daemonic beasts with flight, then they’d have been slightly weak and super fast, but what they were instead was high pointed plasma caddies that nobody needed and often weren’t allowed anyway.

And like, rubric units were a mess. I and most of the TS players I met ended up using them as close combat units, where their two wounds allowed them to slowly grind out a cc victory with their one warp time power fist. These are fluffy players after all, that’s the only kind of TS player there is really. Those were the glory days and even then the basic mechanics of the unit were just stupid.

Fourth edition space marines I think set boundaries on creativity for some people. Yeah I think the customization or role playing kind of element was mechanized. From a hobby perspective it only offered so much too. I can build some outrageous conversions and then all the traits did was give them furious charge. Like, the models didn’t really need that in order to become game legal. There was good stuff about it I guess

Afaik the Cult armies with their own books can't take Raptors either, no? Are they in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons codex? I don't think so, in which case the 3.5 Codex disallows Cult Raptors by design because there aren't supposed to be any. I'm not sure there's a beef to be had if it's still not an option out of three current CSM-related codexes.

As for Thousand Sons in 3.5, using them for CC duty seems like not the greatest use, but then again I don't know the folks you played with. The extra wound wouldn't help against an enemy Power Fist because of Instant Death. I'm sure it was helpful that they were Fearless though. I mean, sure there were limits to what you could do with Cult armies (and there are still limits), but that was sorta the whole point. You give a number of upgrades but it comes at a cost (unlike the current SM supplements, which seem to just add). There's work done toward flavor, but balanced out by restrictions, and that encourages certain forms of army depending on the chosen Legion.

I also find it real strange that you seem to accuse 3.5 for limiting creativity when it had much more available customization than the first 3rd Ed. Codex before it and the 5th Ed one that came right after.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.

No Rhinos, Land Raiders, Tactical Squads, Jump Pack troopers with Chainswords, no Bikes and no Terminators? No deal.

Crimson is an A-tier hobbyist, I’m really just going to go with it.

Not sure what that means.

**H.B.M.C.**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.

Ok, now you're actually being disingenuous. As stated by more than one person already, there's a lot of redundancy in these books. You're also including full page photos as "pages of rules".

Yes, there are 38 pages in the Death Guard book from 68 to 104, but pages 93, 94 and 95 are full page photos. You're also doubling and in some cases tripling up on units.

**Not Online!!!**

Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

So you just arbitrarily decide that no Chaos player wants fluff in their book(s)?

Are we also dumping daemons?

Daemons - pages 84 to 136 for all units, traits, strats, artefacts, powers, points, and objectives. 52 pages.
Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
CSM - pages 118 to 176. 58 pages.
F&F (or did you forget?) - pages 56 to 95. 39 pages.
Vigilus (whoops, you forgot again) - pages 180 to 200. 20 pages.
RotD (ooops) - pages 76 to 86. 10 pages.
PA for DG???

253 pages on just rules. Even if you could reduce that by 20 or 40 it is still larger than any other codex, doesn't have ANY fluff, and doesn't address how many interactions and unit selections would be forbidden among the more isolated legions.

Which is preciscly why you'd exclude Daemons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
Ok, now you're actually being disingenuous. As stated by more than one person already, there's a lot of redundancy in these books. You're also including full page photos as "pages of rules".

Yes, there are 38 pages in the Death Guard book from 68 to 104, but pages 93, 94 and 95 are full page photos. You're also doubling and in some cases tripling up on units.

Also this, rubrics are allready normally available in the regular book, same with any other cult marine.

It'd expand the elite section though by a bit. Which isn't somthing bad. further we'd finally have more units for these legions that make sense to have them, because why the feth do DG and TS not have havocs? etc.

**H.B.M.C.**

And all the duplicate redundant entries that he somehow forgot to remove...

**Not Online!!!**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And all the duplicate redundant entries that he somehow forgot to remove...

Like all the basic cultmarines and daemons that are all allready in the csm book?

also it would finally fix up the obvious missing units for DG and TS, like havocs, or lords with T5 and FNP, if done correctly that is.

Also another point against this.
IA 13 had the R&H list with the capability to represent 8 differing styles of rebelions and warlords, on top of 6 god /non specific subvariations, from Dark mech, to hive world revolutions, and the funny thing is it was better balanced internaly and externally then the whole rest of the books in 7th.
So yes, you can absolutely represent any and all of the legions with adaptable rules aswell, and have it better balanced then the gakshow the chaos dexes are now.

**ccs**

Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

So you just arbitrarily decide that no Chaos player wants fluff in their book(s)?

Are we also dumping daemons?

Daemons - pages 84 to 136 for all units, traits, strats, artefacts, powers, points, and objectives. 52 pages.
Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
CSM - pages 118 to 176. 58 pages.
F&F (or did you forget?) - pages 56 to 95. 39 pages.
Vigilus (whoops, you forgot again) - pages 180 to 200. 20 pages.
RotD (ooops) - pages 76 to 86. 10 pages.
PA for DG???

253 pages on just rules. Even if you could reduce that by 20 or 40 it is still larger than any other codex, doesn't have ANY fluff, and doesn't address how many interactions and unit selections would be forbidden among the more isolated legions.

Nope. I didn't forget anything. But I'm 100% certain that with better layout you could excise a bunch of wasted space.
Let's take a look at DG (the only Chaos book I've got handy atm) for ex....
P.68 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.69 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.74 - about 60% dedicated to a picture.
P.76 - 3" of NOTHING.
P.77 - 2"-2.5" of fluff.
P.78 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic
P.79 - another "1.5" of fluff.
P.80 - 1.5" of nothing.
P.82 - 3" of, wait for it.... NOTHING!
P.83 - 3" of pic/fluff.
P.87 - 4" of picture.
P.88 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic - exact same as p.78 btw
P.89 - 3" of pic/fluff
P.91 - 4.5" of picture
P.93 - 100% full page art. Not a single word/# of either fluff nor rules.
P.94 & 95 - two page full art spread/pic with tiny caption.
P.96 - 4" of picture
P.102 - 3" square chunk of nothing.
P.103 - a nice big L shaped chunk of nothing/incidental art 6"x6"(x2.5"high at it's smallest point)
{but P.102 & 103 - the pts pages - are redundant because the errata/FAQs & CA you all worship have rendered them outdated)

So let's say a Codex page has 9" window of space (that seems close to the average of what I see used when a page is "full rules").
If I get rid of all the above waste I've saved between 9 - 11 PAGES. From 1 book!
And that's not counting some wasted margin space, simply shrinking an entry here & there, or moving something to standardize everything to fit a 9" window.
Pages 1 - 67? All pics/art/fluff. Not touched at all.

And that's only 1 out of the 8 books you've listed. I'm sure a comparable % can be reclaimed from each of those without depriving any of us fluff & pics.

**Gadzilla666**

ccs wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

So you just arbitrarily decide that no Chaos player wants fluff in their book(s)?

Are we also dumping daemons?

Daemons - pages 84 to 136 for all units, traits, strats, artefacts, powers, points, and objectives. 52 pages.
Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
CSM - pages 118 to 176. 58 pages.
F&F (or did you forget?) - pages 56 to 95. 39 pages.
Vigilus (whoops, you forgot again) - pages 180 to 200. 20 pages.
RotD (ooops) - pages 76 to 86. 10 pages.
PA for DG???

253 pages on just rules. Even if you could reduce that by 20 or 40 it is still larger than any other codex, doesn't have ANY fluff, and doesn't address how many interactions and unit selections would be forbidden among the more isolated legions.

Nope. I didn't forget anything. But I'm 100% certain that with better layout you could excise a bunch of wasted space.
Let's take a look at DG (the only Chaos book I've got handy atm) for ex....
P.68 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.69 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.74 - about 60% dedicated to a picture.
P.76 - 3" of NOTHING.
P.77 - 2"-2.5" of fluff.
P.78 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic
P.79 - another "1.5" of fluff.
P.80 - 1.5" of nothing.
P.82 - 3" of, wait for it.... NOTHING!
P.83 - 3" of pic/fluff.
P.87 - 4" of picture.
P.88 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic - exact same as p.78 btw
P.89 - 3" of pic/fluff
P.91 - 4.5" of picture
P.93 - 100% full page art. Not a single word/# of either fluff nor rules.
P.94 & 95 - two page full art spread/pic with tiny caption.
P.96 - 4" of picture
P.102 - 3" square chunk of nothing.
P.103 - a nice big L shaped chunk of nothing/incidental art 6"x6"(x2.5"high at it's smallest point)
{but P.102 & 103 - the pts pages - are redundant because the errata/FAQs & CA you all worship have rendered them outdated)

So let's say a Codex page has 9" window of space (that seems close to the average of what I see used when a page is "full rules").
If I get rid of all the above waste I've saved between 9 - 11 PAGES. From 1 book!
And that's not counting some wasted margin space, simply shrinking an entry here & there, or moving something to standardize everything to fit a 9" window.
Pages 1 - 67? All pics/art/fluff. Not touched at all.

And that's only 1 out of the 8 books you've listed. I'm sure a comparable % can be reclaimed from each of those without depriving any of us fluff & pics.

Nice breakdown. I don't think a lot of people realize just how much of modern codexes are taken up by pure filler. 3.5 represented the legions better in 80 pages than the current codex does in 166, twice the page count. Imagine what we'd have if the design philosophy of 3.5 was stretched out to 166 pages.

Still the question remains, what needs to be done to make csm to behave like the elite veterans their supposed to be? Would just improved legion traits do it? Or should the current stat line for csm be scrapped in favor of the chosen stat line? Or something else?

**Daedalus81**

Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.

**Not Online!!!**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.

Lol as if you'd not need to carry one right now if you wanted to use csm anyways.gimme a break

Might aswell have one book.

**Daedalus81**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.

Lol as if you'd not need to carry one right now if you wanted to use csm anyways.gimme a break
Might aswell have one book.

I mean in terms of being absolutely devoid of images and fluff.

**The Salt Mine**

Cult marines and chosen getting 2 wounds, the daemon engines ignoring the penalties to moving and shooting, updated legion traits, and legion traits on all models are all I want.

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.

Lol as if you'd not need to carry one right now if you wanted to use csm anyways.gimme a break
Might aswell have one book.

I mean in terms of being absolutely devoid of images and fluff.

*Sigh* Ok, just made a quick count, 3.5 has a total of 16 pages which are either full page artwork or fluff. That's not counting the images and fluff accompanying the rules and unit entries or the 15 pages of models. So we could have all that plus the rules content of 3.5 plus another 86 pages of rules if we just kept the codex the same size as the current one. Still not enough fluff?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Cult marines and chosen getting 2 wounds, the daemon engines ignoring the penalties to moving and shooting, updated legion traits, and legion traits on all models are all I want.

Sounds good. But chosen would need to be moved to troops in order to give the chaos undevided legions a troops choice that could compete with primaris.

**The Salt Mine**

Chosen moving to troops is an interesting idea. Would allow legions that can't take the cult options as troops some elite troop choices. But I think the options available to chosen would need to be curtailed a bit.

**Gadzilla666**

The Salt Mine wrote:
Chosen moving to troops is an interesting idea. Would allow legions that can't take the cult options as troops some elite troop choices. But I think the options available to chosen would need to be curtailed a bit.

I could see that, if they were given two wounds. How exactly would curtail their options?

**A.T.**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So we could have all that plus the rules content of 3.5 plus another 86 pages of rules if we just kept the codex the same size as the current one.

8th edition requires at least a half page of unit entry to put a jump pack on a single model. You'd need at least a dozen pages for just the bare bones entries of the chaos lord/sorcerer/prince page from the 3.5 dex...

**Not Online!!!**

A.T. wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
So we could have all that plus the rules content of 3.5 plus another 86 pages of rules if we just kept the codex the same size as the current one.
8th edition requires at least a half page of unit entry to put a jump pack on a single model. You'd need at least a dozen pages for just the bare bones entries of the chaos lord/sorcerer/prince page from the 3.5 dex...

Or take notes from ist 13 which had exactly 36 pages of rules with place to spare for more then enough customization...

**Gadzilla666**

Not Online!!! wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
So we could have all that plus the rules content of 3.5 plus another 86 pages of rules if we just kept the codex the same size as the current one.
8th edition requires at least a half page of unit entry to put a jump pack on a single model. You'd need at least a dozen pages for just the bare bones entries of the chaos lord/sorcerer/prince page from the 3.5 dex...

Or take notes from ist 13 which had exactly 36 pages of rules with place to spare for more then enough customization...

Exactly. 8th edition codex unit entries are inefficiently written. Gw needs to learn from its past.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
ccs wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.
For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!

So you just arbitrarily decide that no Chaos player wants fluff in their book(s)?

Are we also dumping daemons?

Daemons - pages 84 to 136 for all units, traits, strats, artefacts, powers, points, and objectives. 52 pages.
Thousand Sons - pages 66 to 104. 38 pages.
Death Guard - pages 68 to 104. 36 pages.
CSM - pages 118 to 176. 58 pages.
F&F (or did you forget?) - pages 56 to 95. 39 pages.
Vigilus (whoops, you forgot again) - pages 180 to 200. 20 pages.
RotD (ooops) - pages 76 to 86. 10 pages.
PA for DG???

253 pages on just rules. Even if you could reduce that by 20 or 40 it is still larger than any other codex, doesn't have ANY fluff, and doesn't address how many interactions and unit selections would be forbidden among the more isolated legions.

Nope. I didn't forget anything. But I'm 100% certain that with better layout you could excise a bunch of wasted space.
Let's take a look at DG (the only Chaos book I've got handy atm) for ex....
P.68 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.69 - 50% dedicated to a picture.
P.74 - about 60% dedicated to a picture.
P.76 - 3" of NOTHING.
P.77 - 2"-2.5" of fluff.
P.78 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic
P.79 - another "1.5" of fluff.
P.80 - 1.5" of nothing.
P.82 - 3" of, wait for it.... NOTHING!
P.83 - 3" of pic/fluff.
P.87 - 4" of picture.
P.88 - 1.5" of NOTHING/little horned nugel head pic - exact same as p.78 btw
P.89 - 3" of pic/fluff
P.91 - 4.5" of picture
P.93 - 100% full page art. Not a single word/# of either fluff nor rules.
P.94 & 95 - two page full art spread/pic with tiny caption.
P.96 - 4" of picture
P.102 - 3" square chunk of nothing.
P.103 - a nice big L shaped chunk of nothing/incidental art 6"x6"(x2.5"high at it's smallest point)
{but P.102 & 103 - the pts pages - are redundant because the errata/FAQs & CA you all worship have rendered them outdated)

So let's say a Codex page has 9" window of space (that seems close to the average of what I see used when a page is "full rules").
If I get rid of all the above waste I've saved between 9 - 11 PAGES. From 1 book!
And that's not counting some wasted margin space, simply shrinking an entry here & there, or moving something to standardize everything to fit a 9" window.
Pages 1 - 67? All pics/art/fluff. Not touched at all.

And that's only 1 out of the 8 books you've listed. I'm sure a comparable % can be reclaimed from each of those without depriving any of us fluff & pics.

Nice breakdown. I don't think a lot of people realize just how much of modern codexes are taken up by pure filler. 3.5 represented the legions better in 80 pages than the current codex does in 166, twice the page count. Imagine what we'd have if the design philosophy of 3.5 was stretched out to 166 pages.

Still the question remains, what needs to be done to make csm to behave like the elite veterans their supposed to be? Would just improved legion traits do it? Or should the current stat line for csm be scrapped in favor of the chosen stat line? Or something else?

Absolutely scrapping the current stats for Chosen to be troops and making everything Vet stats at minimum. That's a start but obviously we need reworked traits. I'm also in favor of consolidated Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

**BrianDavion**

consolidation isn't going to happen. it's clear GW's looking at expanding their armies not chopping it down

**TheAvengingKnee**

BrianDavion wrote:
consolidation isn't going to happen. it's clear GW's looking at expanding their armies not chopping it down

It would be nice if they fleshed out some of the big legions a little better 1k sons and DG could use some more toys.

**Not Online!!!**

BrianDavion wrote:
consolidation isn't going to happen. it's clear GW's looking at expanding their armies not chopping it down

Correction consolidation isn't happening because more books to sell

**Slayer-Fan123**

Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
consolidation isn't going to happen. it's clear GW's looking at expanding their armies not chopping it down

Correction consolidation isn't happening because more books to sell

Bingo. Calling what Death Guard got an "expansion" is fething laughable. They lost WAY more than they gained. That's not even debatable. You can even say the same for Thousand Sons too.

**H.B.M.C.**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.

Stop being so melodramatic. As already stated, the Marine Codex has roughly the same amount of units as the combined CSM/DG/1KSons books, and it's not an encyclopedia.

**Slayer-Fan123**

AND it has several places where things could be cut in entries. No, you don't need 9+ different Captain entries.

**H.B.M.C.**

Exactly. You don't need an entry for a Captain, Captain on Bike, Captain in Terminator Armour, Captain in Cataphractii Armour, Captain on Skakeboard, Captain on Rollerblades, Captain in a Camaro and so on.

Captain.
Primaris Captain.

Then they can buy different armour types from the Wargear list like it used to be.

The exact same thing should be applied to "Chaos Lords" and "Chaos Sorcerers". No need for Adjective Nounverb snowflake units (Malignant Plaguecasters and whatever the Lord equivalent is called), and it cuts out the idiocy of a Death Guard lord not having Death Guard special rules because it's not specifically a Death Guard Lord miniature. If they can do it with Daemon Princes, they can do it with anything.

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Great guys - you got me! We'll just make the CSM book a fething encyclopedia.
Stop being so melodramatic. As already stated, the Marine Codex has roughly the same amount of units as the combined CSM/DG/1KSons books, and it's not an encyclopedia.

And where do you find the fluff, strats, traits, and so forth for IH?

Marines have 76 sheets. Of which a bunch are some sort of captain.

Chaos has around 129 unique. That's 70% more and it's quite likely we'll see more expansion.

**H.B.M.C.**

You keep trying to squish Chaos Daemons in this to make some sort of point.

You know what a "false dilemma" is, right?

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
You keep trying to squish Chaos Daemons in this to make some sort of point.

You know what a "false dilemma" is, right?

Wasn't that the point of "getting back to 3.5"? This is what people were arguing for is it not?